Metro Midland Line Interchange

Transport21 Fan

ok lines on maps time...

I was just looking at the Metro "Central Option" and thinking about Glasnevin Junction and the whole lack of connections etc. Looking at the RPA map the line passes under the Midland Line next to Mountjoy Prison just east of Glasnevin Junction. What about building an Interchange station there? All the trains from Maynooth and Navan could be routed down the Midland line to Spencer Dock with Sligo line services continuing to use the upper line via Drumcondra to Connolly. If Sligo inter-city passengers want to get to the Airport they change at Maynooth and get a commuter service and then change at the new station in the Midland "trench" for the airport.



There would be no need to change the routing of the Central Option and Botanic station could remain. The biggest problem I could see would be room for a station in the Midland trench.

Maybe the retaining walls on the sides could be cut into for just enough clearence and an island platform located between the tracks with the station above (like Leixlip) with predestrian access to and from the canal path leading from Cross Guns Bridge. The access to the metro station would be via a hole in the Midland platform ala Times Square subway station.



I know this sounds like more work than moving the Central Option towards Glasnevin Junction and building a new station there - but I am thinking in terms of the redevelopment of Mountjoy Prison and how developers could be force to fund the interchange station which will be right on their doorstep, unlike Glasnevin which is a bit further away. There could even be an underground access from the Mountjoy development into the metro station or a footbridge over the canal for that matter.

This is just moving the Glasnevin Junction idea to the east a few hundred meters coupled with the future Mountjoy Prison developers funding the station ala Adamstown/Spencer Dock.


the Midland Trench

dingding

Very good idea, this would leave the airport very accessable form the west.

Transport21 Fan

IE are on record as stating they intend not to build any more stations out of their own pockets and they will have developers do it for them from now on. This removes Glasnevin Junction from the equation as there is no space around it to develop.

But there is a massive urban regeneration plan for Mountjoy coming down the line and this could provide the catalyst for this being funded as it would be adjacent to the development.

Hence my thinking behind this.

jd

Transport21 Fan wrote:

IE are on record as stating they intend not to build any more stations out of their own pockets and they will have developers do it for them from now on..

Where/when did they say this? Do you have a link? Who would pay for Stephens Green and High Street staions if the connector is built?
jd

Transport21 Fan

actually you are correct JD, now that I think of it it was a very senior manager of IE who said it at a conference I was speaking at when I was still in P11. But I am sure others heard it as well.

Either way, I think this is about the only sure fire way of this interchange happening. Private money tied into a major urban regeneration looks a good bet to build this.

I guess public money is paying for Stephen Green. Is High Street still being considered?

MicraBoy

Nice idea, but I don't think that trench is wide enough to accomodate two tracks and a platform.

EDIT: Right I didn't cop your drawing indicates excavating under Whitworth Rd. Unlikely!

murphaph

Beat ya to it Thomas!
Here's a pic I posted on P11 members section a few days ago (before a weekend in Warsaw revealed yet another 'poor' city which kicks our arses with public transport)........





It would require perhaps 50% more effort than Smurfits but so what? It's easier not to build the metro at all so why are we bothering? The canal can be completely drained for the duration of the works-i'e seen the Royal Canal damned and drained twice. The port tunnel passes immediately beneath the northern line at Fairview and no interruption to service was seen during construction-look up google maps and see the tunnel boxe being built immediately beneath the line in the park-if they can do that on the northern line they can do this on the Drumcondra/Midland line cos they can open one or the other and run a decent service to P7 in Connolly at least.

The metro station effectively links the two CIE line stations too so interchange is possible to PPT routes also and the juction at Glasnevin can even be retained in situ!

aliveandkicking

Great minds think alike eh

Victor

murphaph wrote:

[I've] seen the Royal Canal damned and drained twice.

Dammed maybe? :v:

The port tunnel passes immediately beneath the northern line at Fairview and no interruption to service was seen during construction-look up google maps and see the tunnel boxe being built immediately beneath the line in the park

Actually there was disruption. The are is built from fill and there was at least two occassions where there was disruption to the DART after the track settled a few milimeters.

Transport21 Fan

Phillip, your idea of linking the two lines is an even better idea. What an accesibile transport complex that would be and serving a very large population base into the bargin. Nice one.

I keep forgetting the upper line is not on an embankment at that location and a metro box would effectively bridge the two lines and provide all the integration needed. Again to draw a New York comparison, it reminds me 33rd Street station linking the IND and PATH lines.

I am looking at similar trenches were the sides have been excavated into to provide more clearence with a supportting bridge on the tops and the only one I can think of it the Cross Guns Expressway in Brooklyn which was widened for extra lanes on either side in the early 1990's.

You should submit this idea to the relevant parties. I feel the real strenght of it would be tieing it into the Mountjoy Prison urban renewal project which does not only include the vast site of the Gaol itself, but also the large strip on the south bank of the Royal Canal were the current prison wall is. This idea ties in beautifully with that and provides a super rail intechange on the doorstep and for greater Phisborough as well.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Dammed maybe? :v:
I think that was a Freudian finger slip!

Actually there was disruption. The are is built from fill and there was at least two occassions where there was disruption to the DART after the track settled a few milimeters.

Yeah you're right Victor. I remember now. It wasn't serious as far as I remember though and as you say, reclaimed land so possibly to be expected there and less likely to occur at Glasnevin.

Thomas,
One of the points raised over on the P11 board was that IE are going all ahead with exit validation (turnstiles) and the RPA are sticking to the honour system. If the bloody DTO/DTA or whatever it's gonna be called would only knock skulls together then it wouldn't matter as the tickets should all be compatible.

The relevant authorities will be getting copies of it in some shape or form.What I really like about it is that initially no station needs to be constructed on the Midland line in the short term and this would be the tricky expensive one-the Drumcondra Line one would be p!ss easy as it's straight and level (and apparently there used to be one there before anyway!) and there is access from two streets as well as from a metro station which could also provide access from under the canal (depending on how expensive we want this thing to be).

Glasnevin is so unbelievably important to get included early on that it's amazing it isn't already on the plans, regardless of the extra expense of getting it included.

We'd previously overlooked this location for favouring the CIE land at the junction proper but looking at it from the RPA's point of view-they'd be heavily dependent on IE to deliver them passengers at this location as it is surrounded by cemeteries and public green space which obviously can't be developed, unlike Mountjoy which can. Even without Mountjoy, the tennic club spot is much better for passenger numbers and can be developed vertically too, at least to 3 or 4 storeys with under basement shopping or whatever. The tennis courts can be located on the roof and caged in like they do with them in other cities where land is expensive.

This location also requires no serious deviation from the prefered route. Maybe the RPA have thought about this in the future but are waiting for IE to do something in the area when the DART is extended to Maynooth?

Transport21 Fan

Very good Phillip. Contact Frank McDonld at the Times if you can as well. If you need any other names or help just ask or PM me. This is a go-er for sure.

The beauty of this approach is:

• No re-routing required to any of the MetroNorth or IE lines
• Mainly public lands involved and lods of options for station building location and bus interchanges and predestrians can access the location from numerous points
• Is an "add on" to T21 rather than a redrafting
• Private money can make it happen
• Massive population and devlopment lands around the location rather than a million stiffs in coffins next door to it and nowhere major to build on - which was always the weak element in the Glasnevin Junction idea.

Mainly this idea does not rock the boat too much and it's already happening at Adamstown, Grange Road, Spencer Dock. So there are Irish case studies to refer to.

Winters

Why are efforts being made to connect the metro north alignment to the Midand line when it is the Maynooth line that is the line in current use? The Midland line is closed and has no stations on it. As far as I know IE have no plans to reinstate the Midland line as the main line.

Philips idea is the best, and he need not skew his station box away from the metro north alignment. The tennis counts could be reinstated post construction.

murphaph

Will PM you Thomas but to keep the topic going and hopefully get input from peeps who are familiar with the area.....

Who owns the Tennis Club? Anybody now?

I'm utterly convinced this thing can be done and a station on the Midland line added later in the event IE want to use it for Maynooth DART and leave the drumcondra line for PPT trains. If they can get a station box into D'Olier Street they can get one into this big space without too much effort.

Edit: posted at the same time as winters, I'd also leave the Midland station until later on as it would add considerable expense for little gain in the short term. It may not be required at all seeing as the junction at Glasnevin can remain open.

Winters

Philip, keep the station box in line with the current alignment and avoid demolition of the Charlville Clubhouse and you have the best plan of the lot. Send it in to the Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee of Transport.

The length of the opening does not necessarily have to be 100m. The tunnel will be twin bore with island platform. A case can be made for no substancial buildings to be located on top of the box but ground need not necessarily be broken the whole length of the station but just where access is required. Catch my drift?

Well done.

Transport21 Fan

If the initial submission is made or presented, better that multiple individuals broadly agree on this idea and all send in submission individually or write letters to newspapers to raise the profile of the idea as it's fantastic really.

If would be be better for P11 to support this idea after it is out there (like Meath on Track) and let submissions made by others give birth to it first. Otherwise the RPA will just go "P11 have another agenda" and the idea will be tragically lost. The P11 'Metro is Flawed' document reads like a love letter to CIE engineering so I would suspect that using this channel would be counter productive if indeed P11 are interested in Phillip's idea.

What's really needed is somebody like Frank McDonald to do a piece on it in the Times with the whole thrust of the project hinged around the Mountjoy redevelopment.

Very important also, that the usual Independent Rail Researchers are not allowed near this as well as they'll include an "Ultra Light Rail" spur to the Kanturk Branch and the whole thing will be laughed at.

This idea has to happen if T21 is to reach its full potential.

murphaph

Winters wrote:

Philip, keep the station box in line with the current alignment and avoid demolition of the Charlville Clubhouse and you have the best plan of the lot. Send it in to the Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee of Transport.

The length of the opening does not necessarily have to be 100m. The tunnel will be twin bore with island platform. A case can be made for no substancial buildings to be located on top of the box but ground need not necessarily be broken the whole length of the station but just where access is required. Catch my drift?

Well done.

Yeah I think you're right. I'm imagining the new station at Marienhof in Munich which is being dropped in a smaller area than the tennis courts. Just to illustrate that if the box does indeed have to be built under the railway that it can be done and we've already done it here!

This is all the germans need to do to get escalator shafts down to meet newly widened platforms on two underground lines in a deep bore setting! And those buildings are ALL a heck of a lot more historic than anything in Glasnevin.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

The metro station effectively links the two CIE line stations too so interchange is possible to PPT routes also and the juction at Glasnevin can even be retained in situ!

What is PPT?

jd wrote:

Where/when did they say this? Do you have a link? Who would pay for Stephens Green and High Street staions if the connector is built?

Both will likely have planning contribution schemes.

murphaph

Sorry, too much posting on P11 Victor. PPT=Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Winters

PPT = Public Private Tantrums?

Its owned by the Charleville Lawn Tennis Club members I presume. Relocation relocation relocation huh?

The hole in the ground in Fairview Park was used as a recieving pit for a TBM twice the size of the one needed to bore the metro north city centre tunnel. Like I said before, access to the proposed underground metro north stops need not be the length of the platforms but just the area of the shaft used for the lift, steps and also fire and safety stipulations.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with Philips choice of location?