Should Self Defence teachers be liable for teaching rubbish?

Degsy

Accepted

EPO_MAN

columok wrote:

Something myself and others have talked about before...

Should martial arts teachers who teach self defence courses or teach martial arts for self defence and recommend inadvisable things on the "street" be liable. Should a self defence teacher have to validate their claims.

Eg. Should Larry Tatum be brought to court for teaching rubbish self defence?

Love to hear people's thoughts

Who is to say it's rubbish??
The teacher who has one pupil bashed in a street fight could probably pull another student out who would win that fight.

I did some kenpo_karate before. I didn't think it great but some of the dudes there were good fighters and real tough guys. I certainly wouldn't fanyc taking them on - no matter how crappy I thought the art was.

I suppose my point is that who can define what is crap?
Your MMA could be better than their MA but who is to say that their's is rubbish.

Colm_OReilly

Just thought of something tonight.

Legally as fitness instructors (and the term is applicable to us because we're conducted a session where people are physically acitve) are obliged to:

Do an acceptable warm up
Advise of any and all risks with the activity involved.
Seek out if anyone has any illness or physical condition that may interfere with them taking part.

There's others but how many ma instructors even do this?

MaeveD

Agreed, everyone who participates in our classes has to sign a form before they train... the forms vary for each disipline but they are advised of the risks involved and asked about medical conditions.

I thought this would be the norm for insurance purposes to protect both the students and the instructor....

We also hand out some printouts on common sense safety while training and basic mat ettiquette etc

Warm ups and warm downs... very important in my book

Degsy

EPO_MAN wrote:

Who is to say it's rubbish??
The teacher who has one pupil bashed in a street fight could probably pull another student out who would win that fight.

I did some kenpo_karate before. I didn't think it great but some of the dudes there were good fighters and real tough guys. I certainly wouldn't fanyc taking them on - no matter how crappy I thought the art was.

I suppose my point is that who can define what is crap?
Your MMA could be better than their MA but who is to say that their's is rubbish.

How many martial arts teach you how to defend against a headbutt(quite a common opening shot in an assault)?

pcwares

Well degsy KM thought me to create the confident, plams up elbows in non confrontational approach. That immediately put me in a better position for two reasons:

Lie to the camera (street cams, chipper cams) as it looks like im trying to calm the situation down (vocally also) which i am but at the same time preparing to strike first numerous times before the head, fist or kick comes until the mofo is downed or until an escape route opens. I have a feeling someone might say that what im describing is just about one on one and not taking into account the 3 man tag team starting.

But as millionaire (who's posted are straight to the point and very practical in life situation not gym etc) has pointed out time and time again one of the keys to survival out there is awareness. The more you practice the more it becomes a natural trait. Knowledge is inate. Positioning in a bar - exits - all something i practice and its becoming more normal although the gf thinks im a bit nutty....maybe i am!

You dont keep walking towards a gut feeling issue down the street - you turn and leggit. You dont go into a chipper with 2-4 lager louts on your own you stay hungry and fk home. Stupidity, drunkenness and ego will inevitably put you in a position where you get fked over and/or someone you care about.

What is the best striking type martial art integration sparring + location? I am Tyrellstown based. Mabye Swords i was thinking.

Colm.

Roper

Hey pcwares,
If you pop across the Tolka we're in Glasnevin. Taekwondo/kickboxing/BJJ

There's a map on the website below.

Cheers

Degsy

pcwares wrote:

Well degsy KM thought me to create the confident, plams up elbows in non confrontational approach. That immediately put me in a better position for two reasons:

Lie to the camera (street cams, chipper cams) as it looks like im trying to calm the situation down (vocally also) which i am but at the same time preparing to strike first numerous times before the head, fist or kick comes until the mofo is downed or until an escape route opens. I have a feeling someone might say that what im describing is just about one on one and not taking into account the 3 man tag team starting.

But as millionaire (who's posted are straight to the point and very practical in life situation not gym etc) has pointed out time and time again one of the keys to survival out there is awareness. The more you practice the more it becomes a natural trait. Knowledge is inate. Positioning in a bar - exits - all something i practice and its becoming more normal although the gf thinks im a bit nutty....maybe i am!

You dont keep walking towards a gut feeling issue down the street - you turn and leggit. You dont go into a chipper with 2-4 lager louts on your own you stay hungry and fk home. Stupidity, drunkenness and ego will inevitably put you in a position where you get fked over and/or someone you care about.

What is the best striking type martial art integration sparring + location? I am Tyrellstown based. Mabye Swords i was thinking.

Colm.

Thats good sense,having a finely tuned awareness of others,body language,underlying threat etc is they key to staying out of trouble.The amount of people who walk around in a complete oblivious haze,mp3 player blaring without the slightest awareness of thier sorroundings is unreal.Its a good way to get run over by a car or a bike as well.
Anyway,i was never taught this in Taekwondo but if somebody launches a headbutt,simply dropyour face so that thier face crashes into the top of your head.It worksd i've used it three times!

Degsy

pcwares wrote:

Well degsy KM thought me to create the confident, plams up elbows in non confrontational approach. That immediately put me in a better position for two reasons:

Lie to the camera (street cams, chipper cams) as it looks like im trying to calm the situation down (vocally also) which i am but at the same time preparing to strike first numerous times before the head, fist or kick comes until the mofo is downed or until an escape route opens. I have a feeling someone might say that what im describing is just about one on one and not taking into account the 3 man tag team starting.

But as millionaire (who's posted are straight to the point and very practical in life situation not gym etc) has pointed out time and time again one of the keys to survival out there is awareness. The more you practice the more it becomes a natural trait. Knowledge is inate. Positioning in a bar - exits - all something i practice and its becoming more normal although the gf thinks im a bit nutty....maybe i am!

You dont keep walking towards a gut feeling issue down the street - you turn and leggit. You dont go into a chipper with 2-4 lager louts on your own you stay hungry and fk home. Stupidity, drunkenness and ego will inevitably put you in a position where you get fked over and/or someone you care about.

What is the best striking type martial art integration sparring + location? I am Tyrellstown based. Mabye Swords i was thinking.

Colm.

Thats good sense,having a finely tuned awareness of others,body language,underlying threat etc is they key to staying out of trouble.The amount of people who walk around in a complete oblivious haze,mp3 player blaring without the slightest awareness of thier sorroundings is unreal.Its a good way to get run over by a car or a bike as well.
Anyway,i was never taught this in Taekwondo but if somebody launches a headbutt,simply dropyour face so that thier face crashes into the top of your head.It works, i've used it three times!

MaxBax

i find this rbsd a combination of stupid and funny.

pcwares

whats rbsd?

pcwares

I will have a look. Thanks.

Colm.

pcwares

I will have a look. Thanks.

Colm.

Mikel

pcwares wrote:

The more you practice the more it becomes a natural trait. Knowledge is inate. Positioning in a bar - exits - all something i practice and its becoming more normal although the gf thinks im a bit nutty....maybe i am!

Yes you are nutty, you walk into a pub and start looking for the place to position yourself regarding exits? Do you also sit with your back to the wall and facing the door? Do you size up everyone in the bar to see if they are a threat?? Do you fantasise about winning a fight in front of your gf?

My advice is if you walk into a bar and feel threatened, walk out. This way of thinking backs up what has been said about cultivating and exploiting a paranoid mindset. It seems to appeal to people who have watched too many movies where the star is some kind of hardened ex special forces guy who has seen things, things you don't want to know about. Things that come for him when he closes his eyes......... Did you spill my pint? Sure I'll fight you, but to give you a chance i'll only use my thumb.
Pure wankfodder

MaxBax

Mikel - I salute you.

pcwares

You have got the wrong idea.

This is NOT steven seagall, bruce lee kick the sh*te out of people scenaria.

Your presumptious for some reason and argumentative.

Im 28 - not a kid - I have a responsible position and not a thug/scumbag/dellusional person. Have avoided most situation by observing something - making a decision and leaving or walking around it. End of story. It works and i enjoy knowing my environs and enjoy a laugh like the next man. You make out like i sit there with beady eyes, closed off body language waiting for impending fookin doom. Well you couldnt be further from the truth.

If you want to walk around Dublin with a see no hear no speak no attitude then so be it.

The point about the bar re: if you have to be ready to run then you shouldnt be there is a moot point because i dont go to these type of establishments.

Hey maxbax - If you have something to say then be a little more constructive then one word responses. I came onto give a perspective from a martial art outsider on self defence short courses not to get into one with you guys n can can dancers.

Colm.

MaxBax

steven seagull for the win.

Pcwares, remind me what you train in please.

pcwares

I was giving a perspective on short courses as its normally people who have no martial art experience who do them. I provided the type of mentally it creates, some of the simple effective techniques and gave a couple of scenarios. Read the thread if you want to know what course it was. Although i assume your being rehtorical and cynical.

MaxBax

nope i wasn't.

pcwares

Well the extent of my "training" has been 10 2.5 hour training sessions formally in a class environment. This was Krav Maga.


Very enjoyable and i will be as a result moving onto some form of martial art.

Colm.

Degsy

Mikel wrote:

Yes you are nutty, you walk into a pub and start looking for the place to position yourself regarding exits? Do you also sit with your back to the wall and facing the door? Do you size up everyone in the bar to see if they are a threat?? Do you fantasise about winning a fight in front of your gf?

My advice is if you walk into a bar and feel threatened, walk out. This way of thinking backs up what has been said about cultivating and exploiting a paranoid mindset. It seems to appeal to people who have watched too many movies where the star is some kind of hardened ex special forces guy who has seen things, things you don't want to know about. Things that come for him when he closes his eyes......... Did you spill my pint? Sure I'll fight you, but to give you a chance i'll only use my thumb.
Pure wankfodder

genius!

MaxBax

pcwares wrote:

Well the extent of my "training" has been 10 2.5 hour training sessions formally in a class environment. This was Krav Maga.


Very enjoyable and i will be as a result moving onto some form of martial art.

Colm.

i'd consider you a novice in krav maga, would you agree?

loz

MaeveD wrote:

Theres a thousand different scenarios... we give people something, I think it's better than giving them nothing.

That to justify the course fees ?

pcwares

Definitely yes a novice, beginner etc etc. ad nauseum. I dont think it invalidates my opinion based on experience in MA. As there many lads out of there and gals that would bash MA personal effecitively with confidence, higher level of agressive without MA etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Re: Course Fees = 2 good nights out in Dublin.

MaxBax

pcwares, sorry, i'm not picking on you. i'm not trying to say "you're not a black belt in rex-kwon-do therefore your opinion doesn't matter". I'm just wondering who you are, what background you're coming from in an effort to understand your point of view.

Mikel

You have got the wrong idea.

Knowledge is inate. Positioning in a bar - exits - all something i practice and its becoming more normal

Actually, I think I have got the right idea. You walk into a bar with your gf and you're checking the exits so you can flee in case of trouble??

Your presumptious for some reason

No I'm, not, its what you said

and argumentative.

That much is true

If you want to walk around Dublin with a see no hear no speak no attitude then so be it.

If you want to walk around Dublin with your certificate of completion of 25 hours training in lethal fighting techniques in your back pocket, while the soundtrack from your favourite gangster movie plays in your head, then so be it.

Roper

Make sure it's only in your head though because apparently if you're wearing your mp3 player you're f*cked too. jesus if this gets out Apple are goin to sh1t themselves...

pcwares

My background is sport and psychology interest. I have a good fitness level from playing hurling, squash all my life. Thats where i get the awareness from and have been more focused on awareness in daily life after i got bashed outside the vaults last year by 3 lads. I was lucky and came off pretty much intact apart from a few lacerations, bloated nexk for a week.

One of my friends da's taught KM and said that it might be worth doing it even though it is pretty expensive. Yes it was blown up to be so expensive so as to 'keep the average scumbag out - as your learning killer moves' and all that blarney but i was interested to see what it was like.

I like the training aspect and learning maybe a couple of things that save me from any future event and give me some kind of reaction instead of confusion in a situation. This was a good intro as it was actually contact in training. Bit of laugh aswell.

Anyway it gave me a taste and as i say ill be heading probably towards glasnevin soon enough.

pcwares

Mikel,

Your overreacting and act like you know that type of personality very well indeed.

Awareness - ? What is it - ? How can it aid you ?

Its a necessary ingredient for each facate of your life imho. This is not as i say first blood part three and maybe you should head to the classic films -> platoon section of boards so you can sound off in a more appropriate climate.

Colm.

Roper

Tomorrow night, 7pm Colm. And if you fancy learning a bit about the ground too, 8pm for BJJ.

MaeveD

loz wrote:

That to justify the course fees ?

Of course not... what an awful comment to make loz

Roper

I have to say Maeve, the same thought popped into my head when I read it. maybe it's the way it was phrased but

MaeveD wrote:

Theres a thousand different scenarios... we give people something, I think it's better than giving them nothing.

does sound a bit like, well we gotta show them something???

Why not give hem a solid, adaptable delivery system? As you say, the variables are far too many to even comprehend. If you have a platform from which you can work, it opens a lot more doors of opportunity.

MaxBax

yeah. maeve is getting picked on a bit.

Degsy

Roper wrote:

Make sure it's only in your head though because apparently if you're wearing your mp3 player you're f*cked too. jesus if this gets out Apple are goin to sh1t themselves...

Am i to take it that you're one of those people who wander round with music blaring out of thier i-pods and thier brains in neutral?Well i'd just like to say Thanks for repeatedly walking into me on o'connell street and thanks for sharing your musical selections with me when i'm on the bus on my way into work.

Roper

So did you like the Tony Bennet album then???;)

Degsy

Roper wrote:

So did you like the Tony Bennet album then???;)

Wasnt he the caretaker on Take Hart?