Growing anger over 'serial' rejection of planning bids

ishmael whale

There's a fair amount that could be said about this issue of planning. But the one I'd mention first is that there's no particular problem with restricting the right to intervene on planning matters to locals if locals are the ones carrying all the costs. They're not, so it would seem to me to be perfectly in order for people outside an area to intervene if they're going to be picking up the tab for the downstream costs of bad planning decisions.

The subtext of the statements by the various Western representatives does seem to be 'we want to throw away any kind of sensible approach to planning and its really annoying when these outsiders turn up and demonstrate this to be utterly irresponsible and worse still when the law means you can't ignore them and go ahead and be irresponsible.'

Is this really what the Western electorate wants? Is there any local pressure for sensible development?

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1575134&issue_id=13768

Growing anger over 'serial' rejection of planning bids

Monday March 6th 2006

Anita Guidera

A RISING number of controversial planning decisions in counties along the western seaboard have prompted calls for radical law reform.

From Donegal to Kerry, the planning appeals board, An Bord Pleanala, and environmental group, An Taisce, are being accused by public representatives and local groups of making decisions against the interests of communities. Some environmental awareness groups are calling for greater public participation in the planning system, thus helping ensure the preservation of the natural environment.

But local politicians and other groups are demanding that the balance should swing in favour of development, in order to create employment.

This weekend, the Council for the West called for a shake-up of the planning laws so that objections raised by people outside the region and decisions taken by bodies such as the An Bord Pleanala would not be "skewed against" rural communities in the west.

Chairman Sean Hannick said a decision by An Bord Pleanala last month to rule against a 39-house development in the struggling border village of Rossinver -following an objection by An Taisce - was "fundamentally wrong".

"It must be clear that any procedure that risks pitting views of people living in, say Dublin, against the views of people living in Leitrim, on a purely Leitrim development issue, is flawed," he said.

The Council has also been critical of the decision by the planning board to refuse planning permission for a multi-million Euro tourism development at Lough Key Forest Park in Co Roscommon, claiming it sends out a message that the west was anti-foreign investment.

The views of the Council, which represents seven counties, were echoed by the chairman of the Irish Rural Dwellers' Association (IRDA), Jim Connolly. "Planning decisions are a cause of great unrest," he said. "In the last local elections three candidates in Cork, Wexford and Sligo got elected on the single issue of planning.

"I believe that the next election will draw out of the woodwork people who are utterly determined that change in the current planning system must happen and they must be listened to," he said.

His organisation is calling for a change in the existing law of third-party appeal which, he said, is unique in the world, allowing someone who may not even be living in the country to object to a planning application. The IRDA is also calling for more regional representation on An Bord Pleanala and the de-listing of An Taisce because of its alleged prejudice with regard to rural planning. At a recent county council meeting in Leitrim, members passed a vote of 'no confidence' in the planning appeals board.

Councillor Aodh Flynn accused An Bord Pleanala and An Taisce as having "the one school tie", and said that the board should have a regional structure "and not have people in Dublin making decisions on the west of Ireland".

Another Leitrim councillor, Enda Stenson, said the Lough Key project would have been worth millions to north Roscommon and south Leitrim, and would even have benefited parts of Longford and west Cavan. "We need to change the mindset of the powers that be or part of the country is going to be wiped out," he told the Irish Independent.

Victor

ishmael whale wrote:

"It must be clear that any procedure that risks pitting views of people living in, say Dublin, against the views of people living in Leitrim, on a purely Leitrim development issue, is flawed," he said.

Ah, the "If you are from Dublin, you must be wrong" argument.

No wonder they still eat their children.

smashey

There is some merit to all this. Sometime last year, a lady from Kerry objected to a proposed development in Donegal Town that would have brought some badly needed employment to the area. Apparently she had no connection with the area or the specific site.

Victor

smashey wrote:

There is some merit to all this. Sometime last year, a lady from Kerry objected to a proposed development in Donegal Town that would have brought some badly needed employment to the area. Apparently she had no connection with the area or the specific site.

So? Was it a valid objection or not? Either her objection was valid or not - Donegal Co Co doesn't exactly cover itself in glory when it comes to being pro-active.

What if I apply for an application for a nuclear power plant in say Cavan. Should only Cavan people be allowed object?

What about banning people from outside an area from applying for planning permission?

MontgomeryClift

Donegal Co. Council. hasn't much to be proud of. With all the hotel and golf course development destroying the coastline one can only assume Donegal Co. Co. isn't the cleanest when it comes to corruption and conflict of interest.

And I keep hearing of cases where rezoning was approved by councillors against the advice of planners. Today, around Killarney's Gleneagle Hotel, FF councillor Patrick O' Donoghue, who is also managing director of the Gleneagle Hotel Group, which he owns with his family, confirmed that he had lobbied for support for the motion for the rezoning. FF Councillor Sheila Casey, who also voted for the rezoning and proposed the motion, is an employee of the Gleneagle Group.!!!

You don't have to live in Killarney to see what's wrong with that.

smashey

Victor wrote:

So? Was it a valid objection or not? Either her objection was valid or not - Donegal Co Co doesn't exactly cover itself in glory when it comes to being pro-active.

What if I apply for an application for a nuclear power plant in say Cavan. Should only Cavan people be allowed object?

What about banning people from outside an area from applying for planning permission?

I am not casting aspersions on Donegal Co. Council here. Their on-line planning system has just won them an award. They have had their problems over the years but I deal with them on a regular basis regarding planning and find them very fair and straight. The woman from Kerry had no vested interest in the site. From memory, she seemed to have a problem with either the developer or the proposed anchor tenant. Busybody I would call her. This kind of objector needs to be rooted out. With regards to a nuclear power station in Cavan, that is a bit extreme and is never going to happen. However, if it was proposed then by it's very nature it would be open to objections not just in Cavan but all over the country and probably the UK as well. A commercial development in Donegal Town would not be a potential threat to the country as a whole.

muffler

Victor wrote:

What if I apply for an application for a nuclear power plant in say Cavan. Should only Cavan people be allowed object?

What about banning people from outside an area from applying for planning permission?

Firstly the basis of a valid objection is founded on the principle that the objector would in some way be at risk or suffer loss of amenity or devaluation of their property or be generally inconvenienced among a host of other things. So if a nuclear plant was proposed for anywhere in the country I think that anyone from any County would be at risk and would be quite entitled to object.

Its not a very good example to use Victor to make your point. A planning application for a small bungalow up in Ballyphogmahone is not going to have any impact on anyone from more than a mile away.

Your second point about banning people from outside an area from applying from planning permission is already in force here in Donegal

muffler

Back to the topic at hand. We had an interesting situation here a few months ago when the Councillors went ape over a few appeals made by An Taisce against decisions granted on foot of their Section 140 motions.

The squabble has taken a twist (some may say a sinister twist) in that the Council officials have refused the Section 140's so now there is no decision to grant and consequently no need for appeals by An Taisce in these situations.

Personally I feel that An Taisce have too much power. They have no mandate from the people to act as a so called planning police force and instead of being regarded as a statutory body for planning control they should have the right to comment only and not make appeals.

ishmael whale

Clearly the fact that Donegal County Council have won an award for the technical excellence of their online planning application does not particularly relate to the matter in hand. In fact, its right up there with Sir Humphrey lauding the hospital with no patients for winning an award for hygiene.

If it has any relevance, it might be to ask why you see it as important to have an internet application to enable people in Australia to keep abreast of Donegal planning applications if only locals should be allowed to object.

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/council/press/February+06/eplanaward.htm
Donegal County Council is pleased to announce receipt of a major National Award for pioneering work in the application of new technology in the delivery of public services.
On Thursday, 26th January 2006, An Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern T.D. presented Mr Brian Boyle, Head of Information Systems, Donegal County Council, with an award for the best project in the Government to Citizen category at the Inside Government Innovation through Technology Awards for the Council’s e-Planning system. The e-Planning system is a web based application which allows members of the public to access all details of planning applications over the Internet using a combination of database, document management and geographic information systems technology.

Getting back to the point, its pretty much as Victor says. Either the complainant had a valid point or she hadn’t. Dodgy planning in one county certainly does impact on others, and it doesn’t have to be a nuclear power station. If Leitrim allows a whole load of one-off housing that means traffic in Sligo. It also robs Sligo of the economies of scale that might support development.
(On a footnote, can someone point us to the relevant planning case that this Kerry woman objected to? Presumably its up on the award winning Donegal Co Co online planning system.)

smashey

ishmael whale wrote:

If it has any relevance, it might be to ask why you see it as important to have an internet application to enable people in Australia to keep abreast of Donegal planning applications if only locals should be allowed to object.

It means I don't have to go to the planning office or call them to check up on the status of a particular application. That makes it very handy. User friendly even.

ishmael whale

Does the brevity of your response mean you’re not actually able to tell us where we might find the case you mentioned on this user friendly application?

Also, are you agreeing with the point that even mundane developments in one county can and do impact on other counties?

Finally, are you accepting that if someone in Kerry has an objection upheld on a development in Donegal that suggests there is something wrong with that particular development?

muffler

ishmael whale wrote:

(On a footnote, can someone point us to the relevant planning case that this Kerry woman objected to? Presumably its up on the award winning Donegal Co Co online planning system.)

Jealousy my friend, I say jealousy

This may be what you are looking for http://www.donegal.ie/DCC/iplaninternet/internetenquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=01102

or maybe this is it http://www.donegal.ie/DCC/iplaninternet/internetenquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=04816

From memory if it was not either of the above thenit was an an application on either the same site or adjacent site. Feel free to trawl through the planning applications and the appeals at www.pleanala.ie

I do recall the matter made headline news in the local papers and was carried in the local radio station's news programmes. It was a crazy situation whereby you had someone in Kery objecting and/or appealing a planning application in Donegal

ishmael whale

I’m positively serpentine with jealousy, as the whole issue hinges on Donegal County Council’s ability to provide an online planning service.

The link you’ve posted tells me a builder with a Westmeath address made an application to construct a building with ten factory units near Donegal town. Three submissions were received. One was from some sort of planning consultancy with offices in Dublin and Cork, one from some sort of planning consultancy with offices in Scotland and Belfast and one from a Dublin based architect. Representations were received from a Donegal Town based FF Councillor. No sign of a mad Kerry woman, and no indication of why planning permission was refused.

What did crop up with a bit of googling was a few articles about objections being lodged to developments around Donegal town by a company headed by a person with Donegal roots. This suggests the usual Irish thing of complaining loudly about non existent Kerry women rather than focusing on the issue. The objections being raised are either valid or not.

http://www.donegaltimes.com/2005/04_1/frontpage.html
…. Danny Keeney defended his company’s objections to the proposed Retail Park at Drumlonagher. ‘We have come under intense criticism for lodging an appeal against the proposed retail development at Drumlonagher in recent weeks but the simple fact of the matter is that any decision to grant permission for either the proposed retail park at Drumlonagher or for the proposed retail development at the Mullans would seriously compromise the ability to redevelop the Mart and Magee sites and as such would not be in the best interests of existing businesses in the town centre or the proper planning and development of the area. …

http://www.donegaltimes.com/2001/10_1/frontpage.html
…. In a further correspondence Danny Keeney had this message for the locality: “As a person who was born and brought up in the area, I am delighted to have the opportunity to inform you about our plans for the development of the Revlin Park site in Donegal Town…

ishmael whale

Finally, was there a world before Google?

I think we can add all the elements together.

http://www.unison.ie/kerryman/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1364187&issue_id=12246&printer=1
Listowel woman delays Donegal development

Thursday March 24th 2005
By Deirdre Walsh
A LISTOWEL resident has found herself at the centre of a major controversy in Donegal, following her decision to object to a multi-million euro retail park planned for the outskirts of Donegal town. Jackie Lowry with an address at Shrone, Listowel was the sole objector to a 100,000 square foot retail park at Drumlonagher outside Donegal town, spearheaded by a company called Bennett Construction.

While Donegal County Council has since granted planning permission to the project, those in favour of the development are now on tenterhooks to see if Ms Lowry will bring her objection to An Bord Pleanála, thereby delaying the building of the centre for several months. Mayor of Donegal town Ciaran Twomey said he is baffled as to why Ms Lowry would object to the plans, when she lives so far away from Donegal. He pointed out that the 250 jobs promised by the developers were badly needed in the town.

“It is a serious problem with the planning system when someone who has nothing to do with the town can submit an objection that will hold up development in our town,” he said. “It is absolutely ridiculous. What effect is this development going to have on her life in Kerry?”

“From a Donegal town perspective we have suffered long enough and jobs and development are at risk. You ask any business person in the town. They will tell you Donegal is dying on its feet,” he added. Ms Lowry’s objection to the retail park was on the grounds that the development was too far from the centre of town. She had no comment to make when contacted by the media this week about the issue.

muffler

ishmael whale wrote:

........... No sign of a mad Kerry woman...........complaining loudly about non existent Kerry women

Who's a silly billy then. Now you see her, now you dont.

Im glad you solved that Sherlock

ishmael whale

Can I point out there was no Kerry person associated with the first application you posted up as being the relevant case. The second one, that you subsequently edited your post to add, does.

Clearly, the real issue relates to a local division between people who want to see new development in the centre of Donegal town as against development on the outskirts. This is a million miles away from the idea that Kerry women were habitually sticking in vexatious objections for the fun of it. The substance of the remark – that there’s a willingness to bang on about ‘outsiders’ when your problem is really with your neighbour - stands.

smashey

ishmael whale wrote:

Can I point out there was no Kerry person associated with the first application you posted up as being the relevant case. The second one, that you subsequently edited your post to add, does.

Clearly, the real issue relates to a local division between people who want to see new development in the centre of Donegal town as against development on the outskirts. This is a million miles away from the idea that Kerry women were habitually sticking in vexatious objections for the fun of it. The substance of the remark – that there’s a willingness to bang on about ‘outsiders’ when your problem is really with your neighbour - stands.

Her objection was regarding the distance of the development from the town centre. My thinking is that by the time she would drive to Donegal from Listowel to do her weekly shopping then maybe another 2km shouldn't matter.:D See how silly it all is now?

There will always be divisions in any locality regarding town centre/out of town developments. That is where the County Development Plan with the zoning issues come in. For example, the new type of out of town retail parks are not permitted in Letterkenny. All new retail development there is within walking distance of the town centre/main street. With regards to local people objecting then that is their statutory right and I don't have a problem with it. The planning authority make a decision after weighing up any objections while taking into account the nature and location of the development. If the objector is not happy with the decision then they have An Bord Pleanala.

Recently, Donegal Co. Council granted planning permission for a hotel just outside Lifford. I personally think this hotel would be of major benefit to the area. However the decision has been appealed to An Bord Pleanala by two local men and I can see their point of view and would absolutely defend their right to appeal that decision.

ishmael whale

smashey wrote:

Her objection was regarding the distance of the development from the town centre. My thinking is that by the time she would drive to Donegal from Listowel to do her weekly shopping then maybe another 2km shouldn't matter.:D See how silly it all is now?

I'm not sure that's quite it. Indeed, there's a general debate in planning circles about the desirability of out-of-town retail developments. Put quickly, many feel these developments hollow out town centres and have the additional problem that they tend to be accessable mainly by car, and hence create traffic. While I'm not pretending to be intimate with Donegal Town or the proposed developments, this seems to be what's at issue here. For what its worth, it looks like An Bord Pleanala agree in this case that the out-of-town development is undesireable.

From the press extracts I posted above, it seems there is one developer backing and out-of-town development for Donegal Town and another who intends to develop alternative sites in the town. So seeing this in terms of a strange woman from Kerry making an objection for no apparent reason is to miss the point of what seems to be happening.

Certainly, the fact that two developers might have competing plans for the same town is hardly a case that illustrates that objections need to be restricted to persons within a county. The case you are presenting seems to have nothing to do with the issue of, say, An Taisce objecting to developments that they feel violate good sense.

muffler

ishmael whale wrote:

Can I point out there was no Kerry person associated with the first application you posted up as being the relevant case. The second one, that you subsequently edited your post to add, does..........................

....................This is a million miles away from the idea that Kerry women were habitually sticking in vexatious objections for the fun of it.

In relation to the first part of your post I never said there was anyone from anywhere associated with the application. You asked if someone could post up the details of the application and being the kind, generous individual that I am I looked at a couple of applications online and found the first one which was appealed and I suggested it could be what you were looking for.

I did a quick search again and came up with another application and posted it also and hence the edit. I'm not familiar with that part of the county and have no connectin with the subject planning applications so I was just trying to be of help.

Re: second part of your post above. Who implied that kerry women were making vexatious objections just for fun?

Victor

muffler wrote:

I'm not familiar with that part of the county and have no connectin with the subject planning applications so I was just trying to be of help.

Then get teh fook off t his thread :v:

Do the Donegal people realise that big shops tend to displace jobs, not create new ones?

Given the ban on non-residents applying for PP, how did Bennetts, a Westmeath (?) company apply?

anluainn_ru

What if the "local" objecting is a holiday home owner living in Germany? Not uncommon in Donegal. They've got the property address so have more say than someone from Listowel.

The row over 39 houses in Rossinver was ridiculous in my opinion. Rossinver is "struggling" because its in the middle of nowhere with no jobs anywhere near not because it needs more houses. Already 1 in 4 houses in Leitrim are empty and they're still building like billy-o purely for the tax incentives.

murphaph

If Donegal Co Co are so abhored at the idea of big bad An Bord Pleanala up in Dublin telling them what to do, perhaps they'd also like to cut the financial apron strings and fend for themselves rather than relying on Dublin generated wealth to build roads and schools etc.

It's like this-Dublin is the capital so things like ABP are based here. Somebody has to keep these lunatic county councillors in step. We have our own nutbags in this part of the world but most of the counties surrounding Dublin have pretty stringent planning to save a vestige of countryside while Cavan are busy carving it all up into 1/3 of an acre plots and approving the same 3000 sq ft red brick monstrosities on them over and over again.

It's sickening what's happening to our nation's countryside. It belongs to all of us, including us city dwellers so we need the likes of An Taisce objecting at every turn to some of the sh!te that many co co's like approving just to get some more rates or central government cash.

I wouldn't have a prayer of building a one-off in my county, not a single prayer, so why should it be allowed in every field in Cavan, Donegal etc...

muffler

Victor wrote:

Then get teh fook off t his thread :v:

And who are you to tell me where I can post

ishmael whale

muffler wrote:

Who implied that kerry women were making vexatious objections just for fun?

I don't know how many times we're going to have to circle before landing on this one, but here we go again.

My understanding of the relevance of the 'Kerry woman' case that Smashey introduced was to illustrate that allowing non-locals to intervene meant you got people with no material involvement objecting - I think 'busybody' was the term used.

However, the actual background to this specific case is that there's a developer with roots in the area who has plans for building in the town centre objecting to a retail development proposed by someone else. This seems to be the same development that our nefarious Kerry woman is objecting to.

So, possibly this woman was surfing the net late one evening and stumbled on the Donegal online planning system and decided to object for the fun of it. Or possibly what we're seeing is simply a disagreement between two developers with competing plans, and the example simply does not illustrate a busybody at work. Which do you think is more likely?

smashey

murphaph wrote:

If Donegal Co Co are so abhored at the idea of big bad An Bord Pleanala up in Dublin telling them what to do, perhaps they'd also like to cut the financial apron strings and fend for themselves rather than relying on Dublin generated wealth to build roads and schools etc.

I wouldn't have a prayer of building a one-off in my county, not a single prayer, so why should it be allowed in every field in Cavan, Donegal etc...

I think if you read the previous posts, you will see that there is no problem with An Bord Pleanala. I referred to the lady from Kerry objecting to a development in donegal which would have no inpact on her whatsoever. nobody here is having a go at Dublin.

Whatever about Cavan, here in Donegal you can't build on every field. The County Development Plan would make sure of that.

ishmael whale

smashey wrote:

... I referred to the lady from Kerry objecting to a development in donegal which would have no inpact on her whatsoever....

Which it subsequently turns out is actually a case where the real disagreement is between two different developers with different plans for building in Donegal Town.

muffler

Victor wrote:

Then get teh fook off t his thread :v:

Im still awaiting a response as to my original question in relation to this unprovoked outburst by you.

You posted this here and you should reply here for all to see.

I would have expected a bit more civility from you given that you are a mod.

Now tell me what gives you the right to insult me like that

MontgomeryClift

smashey wrote:

I think if you read the previous posts, you will see that there is no problem with An Bord Pleanala. I referred to the lady from Kerry objecting to a development in donegal which would have no inpact on her whatsoever.

If it would have no impact on her whatsoever she would have been unaware of it and would not have made the objection. But it did, she was and she did.

I mean, there are people in Meath who think the M3 will actually help with their traffic problems!!! Sometimes it takes the intervention of sensible people who live further away.

murphaph

You have to pay to make a planning objection. It's to stop timewasters. It's written on all site notices afaik.

smashey

MontgomeryClift wrote:

If it would have no impact on her whatsoever she would have been unaware of it and would not have made the objection. But it did, she was and she did.

I mean, there are people in Meath who think the M3 will actually help with their traffic problems!!! Sometimes it takes the intervention of sensible people who live further away.

Well I would imagine that the people of Dunshaughlin might have a good reason to think this.

smashey

murphaph wrote:

You have to pay to make a planning objection. It's to stop timewasters. It's written on all site notices afaik.

20 Euro is hardly a deterrent.