Sort out the Criminal Justice System

civdef

Please don't play the "sonny if you've been around the block as often as I have routine" It's patronising, you don't know my life story nor I yours, don't talk down to me about supposed life experience that you have over me.

Not trying to patronise or to minimise anyone elses experience, just setting out where I'm coming from, and that it's not from reading some red top news papers telling me we're in the middle of a crime wave.

From my experience, most of the career criminals I've seen are not poor misunderstood people who would go right if they just got a chance - they are
vicious, self centred ****s who don't give a toss how their actions affect others. I can accept that many people might have had a bad start and could be rehabilitated at the start of their criminal careers, but this window of opportunity is short, and once they've gone past it, I think trying to rehabilitate them is a waste of effort.

If tougher sentencing works then surly the toughest sentence you can have must work really well. I would expect if tougher sentencing was A GOOD THING™ then places that had it for certain crimes would not suffer from those crimes.

I would submit the example of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states where Sharia law imposes some pretty harsh sentences for theft. By all accounts the level of theft in those countries is very low indeed.

civdef

Another point I thought of:

I'm not sure if people appreciate just how much crime is committed by a very small number of prolific offenders. When you look at detailed crime stats for an area, you can attribute significant drops in crime to when one or two individuals are imprisoned.

That guy sentenced to 7 years yesterday for involvement in a burglary that involved the murder of a householder had 150 previous conviction at the age of 21! How many undetected crimes was he involved in? This is the sort of individual I'm thinking about. If he was serving a long sentence for any one of those previous crimes, he would not have been at large to take part in the murder of that innocent householder.

MrPudding

civdef wrote:

I would submit the example of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states where Sharia law imposes some pretty harsh sentences for theft. By all accounts the level of theft in those countries is very low indeed.

OK, I submit some actual evience then:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031222-123922-7479r.htm

Kind of old but indictative of a trend I think you'll agree.

People in Saudi Arabia wrote:

An estimated 48 persons were beheaded last year, and more than 50 have been beheaded this year.
However, there is an increasing recognition that the death penalty is not working as a deterrent. And a wider debate in the Saudi media about the social causes of crime has been given impetus by what commentators agree is a crime wave, especially in the major urban centers.

Wow, not a deterrent who would have thunk it. I thought that tougher sentences lowered crime.

MrP

civdef

I'll bet the reoffending rate is pretty feckin low though!!

I don't see the deterrent argument as being terribly strong - if you read back along the thread you'll see I've already stated that. My argument is that keeping prolific offenders in jail keeps them from committing crimes.

In the case of Saudi, I was talking about theft, not murder. They impose very harsh sentences (amputation) for recidivist thieves. How about some theft stats from Saudi that would be relevant to my assertion?

MrPudding

If you actually read the article you will find robbery rate are through the roof.

Putting people away for a long time is not solving the problem, it is simply saving it for a later date.

MrP

mayotom

MrPudding wrote:

If you actually read the article you will find robbery rate are through the roof.

Putting people away for a long time is not solving the problem, it is simply saving it for a later date.

MrP

Your taking about percentages, it doesn't mean much without the actual figures. Crime rates were very low so a 20% is not a lot
a 20% increase in Theft in Ireland may represent tens of thousands
a 20% increase in theft in Saudi Arabia may represent a couple of hundred more thefts.

I don't have solid figures, but crime is generally very low there.
Thats not to say I agree with their methods, but they seem to work to a certain extent

The_Minister

Freelancer wrote:

Why yes, brainwashing a nations youth, that's the thing for a democracy to do.

Only those youth who are incurably criminal.

Zombrex

Firespinner wrote:

Only those youth who are incurably criminal.

Define "incurably criminal" ...

The_Minister

Wicknight wrote:

Define "incurably criminal" ...

A repeat offender who refuses to mend his ways, particularly a violent offender who attacks guards/other prisoners.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Only those youth who are incurably criminal.

Wow, well I'm convinced tell you what, while we try and sort out the technological kinks in your system, why don't we just start dishing out frontal lobotomys on the Health Service........

Zombrex

Firespinner wrote:

A repeat offender who refuses to mend his ways

Yes, but after how much rehibilation?

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

Define "incurably criminal" ...

Measure the size of their skulls and draw up some kind of table.
The ones with heads heads larger or smaller than the median are the incurably criminal.

mayotom

fly_agaric wrote:

Measure the size of their skulls and draw up some kind of table.
The ones with heads heads larger or smaller than the median are the incurably criminal.

Now what are we discussing??

civdef

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0310/kielyr.html

Out in 18 months time - who thinks he's going to be "rehabilitatable"?

mayotom

civdef wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0310/kielyr.html

Out in 18 months time - who thinks he's going to be "rehabilitatable"?

very true, what were they thinking with a sentence like this

take a look at this thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054900755

Some people want to lock up drunk drivers for life when people rape and kill and only get 8 year which they probably won't serve

I don't condone drink driving, so don't start...

MrPudding

mayotom wrote:

Your taking about percentages, it doesn't mean much without the actual figures. Crime rates were very low so a 20% is not a lot
a 20% increase in Theft in Ireland may represent tens of thousands
a 20% increase in theft in Saudi Arabia may represent a couple of hundred more thefts.

I don't have solid figures, but crime is generally very low there.
Thats not to say I agree with their methods, but they seem to work to a certain extent

Again, may I suggest *actually* reading the article?

Tell you what, I will post some of the good bits.

The article wrote:

A report this year by the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency said crime among young jobless Saudis rose 320 percent from 1990 to 1996 and is expected to increase by an additional 136 percent by 2005.

The article wrote:

Although official crime and unemployment statistics are not available, the number of jobless Saudis is estimated to be as high as 35 percent, and the al-Riyadh daily newspaper has reported that in 1999, courts dealt with 616 murder cases.

The article wrote:

An estimated 48 persons were beheaded last year, and more than 50 have been beheaded this year.
However, there is an increasing recognition that the death penalty is not working as a deterrent. And a wider debate in the Saudi media about the social causes of crime has been given impetus by what commentators agree is a crime wave, especially in the major urban centers.

The article wrote:

Riyadh police say that in the past three years, they have recorded more than 13,000 serious robberies.

The article wrote:

A surgeon and emergency-room doctor at King Fahd General Hospital in Jidda said that two years ago, he saw one or two shooting incidents each month, most of which were accidents. "But now I [am] seeing the victims of up to seven stabbings and shootings a week."

The article wrote:

The number of drug smugglers, dealers and users in the kingdom has increased sharply, from 4,279 in 1986 to 17,199 in 2001, according to the latest published statistics.
These figures probably only reveal the tip of the iceberg.

There are some percentages and some numbers there. How do you explain these massive increases in a state that has some of the harshest sentencing on the planet?

I have provided evidence showing that harsh penalties for crime does not stop it rising. You and others have stated we need harsher penalties to reduce crime. Some of you have also stated that it will reduce crime. Can you please provide evidence of this?

MrP

Zombrex

civdef wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0310/kielyr.html

Out in 18 months time - who thinks he's going to be "rehabilitatable"?

Actually "out" in 6 years, which was his sentence, since he has already served 4 and a half in prison. Not saying I agree with the sentence, but it is miss-information to imply this guy raped and killed a girl and only served 18 months in jail.

Also has he recieved any attempts at rehabilitation at all? It doesn't mention it in the article.

You seem to be miss-understanding rehabilitation with a simple prision sentence.

Davei141

He done his junior cert and leaving cert in prison. Still, 6 years for rape and "manslaughter" (give me a ****ing break). What does somebody have to do in this country to be convicted of murder? And why was the murder conviction overturned?

gurramok

Speaking of the justice system, i read in the paper today that according to the gardai, there are 2000 outstanding arrest warrants in north-west dublin which includes my area.
Just think what the number could be nationwide.
The excuse was that the gardai are seriously under-resourced and cannot carry out the outstanding warrants and probably never be able to in the short term, according to GRA. The judges they say grant bail too freely hence the huge amount of warrants!
If the powers that be start enforcing the law, it would be a start to catch the baddies before they get baddier!!