developers stealing ideas

NeptunesMoon

whats the legal situation if i went to a web programmer with a nice idea for a site that wasn't done before and i was offering a unique service. if i shared all my ideas and if the developer made it and instead of giving it to me, they decided not to charge me and just say they weren't giving it to me and used it themselves? as well, once its designed, who owns it? me or the developer?

cheers

secret_squirrel

If you are that concerned about the ownership of your idea then you need to put a contract together before engaging the services of a web designer.

Karoma

secret_squirrel wrote:

If you are that concerned about the ownership of your idea then you need to put a contract together before engaging the services of a web designer.

Better have a solicitor look it over...

NeptunesMoon

how detailed would it have to be do you know? i wouldnt know much about contracts, i just have a nice idea id like developed. if i simply wrote up saying something along the lines of "all development and ideas will remain my property" and we both sign, is that enough?

Karoma

Only if it's "all yore code are belong to me" and signed in blood on toilet paper.
Try the legal forum perhaps ? They may point you in the right direction.

secret_squirrel

NeptunesMoon wrote:

how detailed would it have to be do you know? i wouldnt know much about contracts, i just have a nice idea id like developed. if i simply wrote up saying something along the lines of "all development and ideas will remain my property" and we both sign, is that enough?

If your idea is that important to you and you consider it that important and groundbreaking then isnt it worth getting a legal professional to draw up a contract?

If on the other hand if its no great shakes just take the phrases you want out of a standard contract of employment - they usually contain a paragraph about ownership of work.

NeptunesMoon

i dont have the money to be getting lawyers involved unforuntalty, i just have a good idea that i would like to get quoted for development costs, i would also like to shop around with different developers so wont be engaging in contract until after i choose one, so my worry is, if im shopping around with a unique idea to different developers just looking for a price, whats to stop them refusing me and just doing it themselves?

is there a list of developers anywhere? any recomended companies? is it generally cheaper to get an overseas developer oppozed to an irish one?

is_that_so

If you want to hold onto the "code" then you will need a legal contract. I'd be surprised if your "idea" is so unique that it has never been done before. A lot of web stuff is recycled anyway. It's a different story where software applications are concerned. As regards getting a developer talk to someone, get recommendations on here, google etc. and get quotes.

You could also go to the likes of Enterprise Ireland, FAS,IDA etc, for guidance.

Most importantly don't wait around. I have met two people recently who held onto their idea only to find someone had done it.

Karoma

Sounds that you need more than 1 clause. It sounds like you need to draw up a non-disclosure agreement, which needs to be signed before even discussing any possibility of getting the contract, and would include that they cannot use or divulge your idea. I'm sure you could find one and amend it if you look around. Whether it would be airtight- I doubt it, but it might sufficient... A solicitor is really the way to go.

The other thing that a lot of people do is: draw up a very detailed business plan & design. Post it via registered post to yourself and keep it as proof of copyright...

To be quite honest, I don't think Enterprise Ireland, FAS,IDA et al. would be of any real help in the legal side of things. You could always try.
As is_that_so said, get the finger out.
And give it some proper consideration. I know that the lack of funds is offputting in doing things right, but if you believe in it that much - consider putting your money where your mouth is (Beg, borrow, or [strike]steal[/strike]) </hypocrisy>

NeptunesMoon

there is nothing more off putting than all these legal things. It's going to be a very useful tool that could end up being used by millions of companies around the globe. it's not so much a groundbreaking invention, but an improvement on whats already out. its a system that is adaptable to any website easily. thats what i want made. i dont know if ill have the money to get it made, let alone market it, so im hoping it will spread by word of mouth through the net. another thing, once its made, would it be easy for somebody else to crack the code and use it themselves on their own site meaning they could market it more competitvely and put me in the dust


any recomendations for developers here? Id like to stick to Irish developrs as working with them would probbably me much easier.

would that register post copyright idea hold up in court even if I never proceeded with the idea and someboidy copied what id copyrighted from the registered post?

cheers

is_that_so

NeptunesMoon wrote:

there is nothing more off putting than all these legal things. It's going to be a very useful tool that could end up being used by millions of companies around the globe. it's not so much a groundbreaking invention, but an improvement on whats already out. its a system that is adaptable to any website easily. thats what i want made. i dont know if ill have the money to get it made, let alone market it, so im hoping it will spread by word of mouth through the net. another thing, once its made, would it be easy for somebody else to crack the code and use it themselves on their own site meaning they could market it more competitvely and put me in the dust


any recomendations for developers here? Id like to stick to Irish developrs as working with them would probbably me much easier.

would that register post copyright idea hold up in court even if I never proceeded with the idea and someboidy copied what id copyrighted from the registered post?

cheers

I think you will probably have to go down the legal route anyway.

Based on your protection of your "idea" here I would point you in the direction of Enterprise Ireland and the IDA, as they provide grants and support for exports, which your product would certainly be.

Although we may in good faith recommend developers here, IMHO by dealing with official organisations they are not "after" your product. They would be in a much better position to identify companies that can help, whether it is with finance or development.

TBH if your idea has so much potential they will at least listen to you. I have had dealings with Enterprise Ireland and I have found them extremely good in giving guidance and information. A friend of mine got all kinds of funds for a numer of years for software his company subsequently developed.

NeptunesMoon

I might try EI and the IDA (what does IDA stand for?) any contact details for either? i have no real knowledge about any of this, im a web user and know what people want, thats about it, i have a range of great ideas with great potential but just no knowledge of how to go about realising them. by the way, this has nothing to do with my other thread below about the artist page, thats for another project of mine, which is one of the easier ones.

my idea will provide a solution to webmasters etc that i know one who was quoted 35K for what they want, with my idea, i could provide that to anyone who wants it for a fraction of the cost. another company want something that would have cost them 2.5K, my idea will allow these solutions to be had by an unlimited amount of webkmasters throughout the world for a much cheaper price.

unfortunately im very busy as of late and i have absolutely no money to invest in this myself.

cheers

DOLEMAN

Ideas are included in the legal definition "Public Domain".

This means you cannot claim ownership for something like a number, a joke, a title... or an idea.

I'd be nearly certain there is nothing you can do in this situation. It's your word against his...

Sorry to hear about your situation.

is_that_so

NeptunesMoon wrote:

I might try EI and the IDA (what does IDA stand for?) any contact details for either? i have no real knowledge about any of this, im a web user and know what people want, thats about it, i have a range of great ideas with great potential but just no knowledge of how to go about realising them. by the way, this has nothing to do with my other thread below about the artist page, thats for another project of mine, which is one of the easier ones.

my idea will provide a solution to webmasters etc that i know one who was quoted 35K for what they want, with my idea, i could provide that to anyone who wants it for a fraction of the cost. another company want something that would have cost them 2.5K, my idea will allow these solutions to be had by an unlimited amount of webkmasters throughout the world for a much cheaper price.

unfortunately im very busy as of late and i have absolutely no money to invest in this myself.

cheers

http://www.idaireland.com/home/index.aspx
and
http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/

They both have local offices all over the country. Make Enterprise Ireland the first port of call. Good luck.:)

NeptunesMoon

so I'd actually need to have the thing developed before I can claim ownership of it?

What if I was to go on that show, I forget what it's called, but they have a load of investors sitting at a table and they get people on with ideas at the hope of getting investment and partnership? only thing is, i couldn't say the idea on tv, I'd have to just tell them it has huge potential and hope they want to invest. if they said they would do it for say, 70% of all profits, and I said yes, what would be my obligation?

It has great potential, I just need money and somebody with the knowledge of development.

I forgot to mention in my last post, that a friend went to the enterprise board with an idea they thought was great and had good potential but he didn't get investment because it wouldnt be creating any jobs for the country, it would just be putting money in his pocket.

Perhaps this does have potential to create jobs, I think it probably would, but again, I have no knowledge of business management or anything like that. I'm not sure if this would be an "export"? I don't know..

It's very frustrating, I have these ideas but no knowledge in the areas where my ideas will work:(

jmcc

NeptunesMoon wrote:

so I'd actually need to have the thing developed before I can claim ownership of it?

There is no copyright on ideas - only on the expression of the idea. Patents protect the idea but in Europe, there are no patents on business systems I think. (Unless the crooks in the EU have changed that.)

What if I was to go on that show, I forget what it's called, but they have a load of investors sitting at a table and they get people on with ideas at the hope of getting investment and partnership?

Are we talking about Dragon's Den on BBC or the low rent joke on RTE? You would get laughed out of the room because you have to be able to show that there is viable business and have plans and financial forecasts.

Regards...jmcc

Figment

I believe there is very little value in an idea. Only in the execution and implementation of that idea.

No VC would look at you if you were not willing to explain (in detail) the idea.

bpmurray

Figment wrote:

I believe there is very little value in an idea. Only in the execution and implementation of that idea

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. A patent is claiming the ownership of an idea, not its concrete implementation; copyright covers the implementation.

Just a quick comment on the ownership of code. Despite this being your idea (which means you can patent it), in the absence of a contract that states otherwise, the programmer owns the copyright to the code. So the steps that are worth doing are:

• If your idea is novel and non-obvious, talk to a patent lawyer. Alternatively, describe the idea well and send this to yourself by registered post. It won't protect the idea, but it will prevent someone else from being granted a patent.
• Draw up a non-disclosure agreement. If you want to keep your idea, you need to prevent folk who you tell from telling everyone else.
• Draw up a simple contract. If you want to own the code when it's all done, all it needs is one paragraph that states this. You don't need a solicitor for this, as long as you both sign it & have it witnessed.

heggie

figments right, many people are full of great ideas, its the implementation that seperates your average dreamer from a viable business

jmcc

bpmurray wrote:

Alternatively, describe the idea well and send this to yourself by registered post. It won't protect the idea, but it will prevent someone else from being granted a patent.

No. It won't. This seems to be a fairly common fallacy.

This makes interesting reading:
http://www.patent.ie/html/patents.html

Regards...jmcc

rsynnott

Really, if you're this worried, talking to a professional may be a good idea.

bpmurray

jmcc wrote:

No. It won't. This seems to be a fairly common fallacy.

Actually it will: it proves what they call "prior art". Not sure it it works in Ireland, but it definitely does in the US.

jmcc

bpmurray wrote:

Actually it will: it proves what they call "prior art". Not sure it it works in Ireland, but it definitely does in the US.

Well most of the definitions of prior art that I've seen have the critical aspect of the prior art actually being published and in the public body of knowledge. In the US, the registered post solution could be used (secret prior art) but in Europe, it is, from what I've seen unacceptable.

Regards...jmcc

bpmurray

Ahh - in the US, secret prior art does matter. That's where I'm confused. I wasn't aware that the European practice was to assume that if something was already discovered it would have been published. So what constitutes a minimal piblic prior art? One person? Or does it have to be in what is normally described as the public domain?