Voting in Ireland

Lennoxschips

There doesn't seem to be anything on the www.oasis.gov.ie site that suggests that non-resident Irish citizens (like myself) can't vote in Irish elections. Indeed, there is an option to "Download an application form for inclusion on the Postal Voters List if you are unable to vote due to your occupation (pdf)" Typically though, the link to this form does not work.

Here's the page: http://oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/right_to_vote.html

So what's the deal? Is there really a law that says people like me can't vote or have we been lied to?

aidan_walsh

you may be eligible for a postal vote if you are a member of the Defence Force, a member of the Garda Siochana or an Irish diplomat posted abroad or his/her spouse.

Unless you are any of these it doesn't look like you can vote by post.

Lennoxschips

So politicians in Brussels and their wives/husbands can vote but I can't?

That's discrimination by occupation!

Hold on a sec:

You may also be eligible for a postal vote if you cannot go to a polling station because of a physical illness or disability or because you are studying full time at an educational institution away from your home address where you are registered.

I'm registered at a Dutch university.

That should qualify you- assuming you are normally resident in Ireland outside of term which you would be even if you went away on a j1 or interrailing or something.

Contact any of your home addresses local TD's and they should be able to sort you out.

Lennoxschips

That could be a bit of a snag, I've been living here for 10 years.

is_that_so

Lennoxschips wrote:

That could be a bit of a snag, I've been living here for 10 years.

I am not sure if there is current legislation that covers that.
There are murmurings of electoral reform..........

BrianD

Well, according to the Oasis web site you are not eligible to vote:

Irish citizens living abroad cannot vote in an election or referendum here in Ireland. Irish officials on duty overseas are an exception and they may register on the Postal Voters List.

Anyone remember the days when politicians used to drive to university towns and pick up their student constituents and bring them back home to vote? Not sure if it's still done nowadays ... I get the impressions that politicians would prefer if the younger folk didn't excercise their democratic franchise!

Lennoxschips

Lennoxschips wrote:

That could be a bit of a snag, I've been living here for 10 years.

Oh well in that case,I'd suggest you have a better chance of voting in Holland than here

gurramok

Lennoxschips wrote:

That could be a bit of a snag, I've been living here for 10 years.

Maybe you are still on the register here after all, its suppose to be out by 800,000 people anyway, they might have forgotten to strike you off 10 years ago.
So get that plane ticket ready for a flying visit at the next election

Lennoxschips

Earthman wrote:

Oh well in that case,I'd suggest you have a better chance of voting in Holland than here

Yeah, it would make sense, seeing that I've been paying them tax for all these years! I'd like to have a say in what they do with my money. :rolleyes: Then of course there's the EU constitution, which I wasn't allowed to vote on in Holland or won't be allowed to in Ireland, despite being an EU citizen living in the EU.

This really is something that they should have sorted out with the Maastricht Treaty.

Anyway, I've fired off an e-mail to my "local" TD in Cork, we'll see what happens.

BrianD

I read that you have been living outside of Ireland for 10 years. If you are no longer ordinairly resident in Ireland, is it reasonable to assume that you should have a vote there? The objective of our democracy is to elect a government that will govern and legislate the people who reside within the State. If you choose to live outside the State then it would be reasonable to say that you can no longer participate in the democratic process. After all, there are many millions around the world who are Irish citizens. Some have never set foot on this island and some, like you, have lived and contributed to society on all levels. Where do we draw the line with who can vote?

Lennoxschips

Many millions is an exaggeration, the figure is something around slightly less than 1 million Irish passport holders overseas, most of them who left Ireland for economic reasons, many sending money back every now and then. Still, one million for a country of four million is quite a lot, and it just shows you that we had high emigration even in the recent past.

But in principle I agree with you that it would a bit strange if I were able to vote in Ireland, considering that I don't take part in day to day Irish life. My issue is more that I can vote nowhere, bar the odd council election. I'd like to vote in Dutch general elections, seeing as I pay Dutch tax and that the Dutch government spends my tax, but they won't let me (just as a Dutchman in Ireland can't vote for the Dail). But it came to my attention that Dutch citizens living overseas are allowed to vote in by post in Dutch elections and I was wondering if it was the same for the Irish, but it doesn't seem to be.

I think ideally the EU should make all EU citizens eligible to vote only in the general elections of the EU country of their residence and where they pay their tax. So the Poles in Ireland would get the vote and I would be able to vote in Dutch elections. It's the fairest solution, I think.

BrianD

I don't know the numbers but I would say that in theory there are many people who could apply for Irish citizenship. Unlikely to happen for the sake of voting in a general election but in theory it could.

I think the status quo is the fairest system. I don't think it would be a good idea for other EU citizens to vote in the national elections of another EU country as it could cause undue influence.

BTW after 10 years would you not be eligible for an "upgrade" on your status in the Netherlands?

Lennoxschips

BrianD wrote:

I don't know the numbers but I would say that in theory there are many people who could apply for Irish citizenship. Unlikely to happen for the sake of voting in a general election but in theory it could.

Well, if these hordes of people have not yet applied for Irish passports then they're hardly going to apply for them in order to vote. But if you are worried about people becoming Irish through the granny rule then that's a seperate issue unrelated to voting rights.

I think the status quo is the fairest system. I don't think it would be a good idea for other EU citizens to vote in the national elections of another EU country as it could cause undue influence.

Perhaps you should first have to live in your new EU country of residence for a minimum of five years or something.

BTW after 10 years would you not be eligible for an "upgrade" on your status in the Netherlands?

Yes, I am probably eligible for a Dutch passport. However, the Dutch would require that I give up my Irish citizenship for that. I am Irish untill I die!

Alun

As an EU citizen, you are eligible to vote in Dutch local and provincial government elections but not national elections or referenda. I seem to remember that you had to have lived there for 5 years or more to be able to do this (I lived there for 13). For EU elections you can choose to vote in either your country of citizenship or your country of residence.

I always made it a point to vote in local elections in Holland. At least there they actually do something and have proper funding, so it makes a real difference, rather than the bickering and slagging matches that pass for local councils here.

As far as voting in national elections is concerned, that'd be OK in countries where MP's/TD's/whatever are constituency-less like in Holland, but where would you vote in Ireland? Maybe there should be a special virtual constituency for all the expats with their own TD's?

I'm a UK citizen, and I also seem to remember that I could avail of a postal vote for the first ten years that I was non-resident, but after that I lost that privilege. To be honest, after being away for that amount of time I had little clue, or interest in what was going on there anyway, so it was of little significance. Now that I live here though, I can now vote in national elections, although the whole PR voting thing and the tactics involved therein have me pretty much baffled, so I haven't done it yet

gilroyb

Lennoxschips wrote:

Then of course there's the EU constitution, which I wasn't allowed to vote on in Holland or won't be allowed to in Ireland, despite being an EU citizen living in the EU.

The various referenda were whether to change the national constitution to bring it into line with the EU constitution. No country was voting on the constitution itself, but whether they wanted it applied in their country. It's a pedantic point, but means it was a national vote and not an EU vote.

Alun wrote:

Now that I live here though, I can now vote in national elections, although the whole PR voting thing and the tactics involved therein have me pretty much baffled, so I haven't done it yet

The Irish system is actually a really easy version of PR to get the hang of. Which of the candidates is your favourite? They're number 1. Like anyone else? They're number 2 etc. etc. You can still vote like you do in the UK (only tick/put 1 in a single box), or you can show your preferences among any number of candidates. I usually make a point of going all the way down the ballot, but that says more about me than anything else.

Lennoxschips

As an EU citizen, you are eligible to vote in Dutch local and provincial government elections but not national elections or referenda. I seem to remember that you had to have lived there for 5 years or more to be able to do this (I lived there for 13). For EU elections you can choose to vote in either your country of citizenship or your country of residence.

Yeah, there was a local election just last week that I voted in. (That's what got me thinking about my Irish voting rights.) PvdA swept the board.

The UK/Ireland agreement on voting rights is the kind of the setup I was thinking should be established at European level.

Alun

Lennoxschips wrote:

The UK/Ireland agreement on voting rights is the kind of the setup I was thinking should be established at European level.

Just as a matter of interest, how did this come into being? I know that Ireland has a reciprocal voting agreement, such that any nation that gives Irish citizens voting rights automatically gets voting rights for its citizens in Ireland. But how come the UK gives voting rights for Irish citizens in the first place? Did they simply "forget" to revoke their voting rights post independance, or was it a conscious decision on their part to keep allowing it? And are there any other nations that have these kinds of relationships with each other?

Lennoxschips

All commonwealth citizens resident in the UK can vote in Irish elections. When we left the commonwealth in 1949 the government in the UK was Labour. My guess is that they figured Irish citizens were probably more likely to vote Labour so decided to let the Irish keep on voting.

gilroyb

I think that had the UK withdrawn Irish voting rights then this would have had to be done in the context of more restrictions on Irish people in general. The UK at the time was benifiting from the Irish workers in its construction industry etc. and so I'd assume it was just easier to continue our 'special relationship'.

fly_agaric

gilroyb wrote:

The Irish system is actually a really easy version of PR to get the hang of. Which of the candidates is your favourite? They're number 1. Like anyone else? They're number 2 etc. etc. You can still vote like you do in the UK (only tick/put 1 in a single box), or you can show your preferences among any number of candidates. I usually make a point of going all the way down the ballot, but that says more about me than anything else.

I wonder does anyone know if the counters or party people at the count ever fill in the other boxes for you when you just put a 1 in a single box and leave the rest of it blank? Must be tempting in a close race?:D

I sometimes used to vote this way sometimes until I got paranoid about it.

gilroyb

I used wonder that as well. From what I know about counts there are enough counters/tallymen/Party Hacks there to ensure that no one can do anything without being seen.

I also heard they search the counters for pencils/pens, but something about that seems a bit extreme.

Victor

Lennoxschips wrote:

The UK/Ireland agreement on voting rights is the kind of the setup I was thinking should be established at European level.

Some countries do have it.

Regarding getting Dutch citizenship, claim it and just get an Irish passport on the sly....

irishsurfer

I have been told that I cant vote-unless I am in PDF and overseas.

I am an Irish Citizen, currently in the Netherlands for work, I cant vote even though what happens in Dublin affects me.

I dont mind that other people, PDF, embassy staff, UN staff etc can vote and I cant.

But I do mind that child rapists in prison get a vote and I dont:mad: