Drugs ..

Chucky the tree

julep wrote:

what? like methadone clinics?
yeah, they're a great success. you are aware that some people sell the methadone and buy heroin, aren't you? of course, then you'll have the tax payers saying that their money shouldn't be wasted on these people and their problem. 'it's their own fault and so on'
again, why give more people access to something that will eventually cause problems?
.

Bollox.


THey dont sell the methadone they are just given by the methadone clincs out on the street. Stop listening to fm104 phone show.

Terry

i don't think i've ever listened to the fm104 phone show. i have, however, listened to a methadone user who told me how her ex-boyfriend was selling his methadone to buy heroin.
i've also listened to a nurse from the clinic in ballyfermot who confirmed that this happens.
i've also listened to my friend, whose brother in-law sold his own methadone to buy heroin.
i've also listened to my cousins friend who told me that he used to sell his methadone.
i don't think any of these people were ever on the fm104 phone show, but i could be mistaken about that.
however, they did actually sell their methadon (a lot of the time to children) to get money for heroin.

slipss

julep

"then why add to the number of harmful legal drugs?"
to make them less harmful

"i've already pointed out on several occasions (including once or twice in this thread) that i think all tobacco products should be made illegal."
fair enough so, do you feel the same about caffiene and alcohol? (just for my own curiosity)

"what? like methadone clinics?
yeah, they're a great success. you are aware that some people sell the methadone and buy heroin, aren't you? of course, then you'll have the tax payers saying that their money shouldn't be wasted on these people and their problem. 'it's their own fault and so on'
again, why give more people access to something that will eventually cause problems?"
It may be possible this has happened, but I can't see why anyone would pay for methadone or phi when it's given out free of charge to anyone in a methadone program.

"i think you're forgetting the dumb element in all of this.
'oh, one hit didn't get me hooked. everyone was wrong. this stuff isn't addictive'.
my reference to the pro-drug propaganda was aimed at those who seem to ignore the bad side of drugs and then go around quoting some crap that they read on some stoner website."
Well if anyone is that stupid it's a miracle they haven't died form licking an electrical socket at this point.

"the arguement for legalising hash seems to be largely centered around taking control of the drug from the hands of the criminals. these criminals will just turn to another criminal activity if that was to happen.
as for medicinal marijuana, sell it in pill form to those who need it and take the psychoactive element out of it."
You realise if these criminals would be inclined to turn to other criminal activity then they are more than likely all ready involved in those activities.
None psychoactive cannibas pills(marinol) are notoriously unaffective in allieviating the negative effects of chemotherapy (there primary use) aswell as killing pain (there secondary use) and that is the opinions or the patients themselves.

"for anyone who wants to see all drugs legalised, i suggest you talk to 1 of the 10,000 or so heroin addicts in the greater Dublin area and see how they feel about it.
drugs ruin your life. they take all your money, then you start stealing from your friends and family and consequently lose them. then you end up living with those people that you look away from as you pass them every morning on your way to work. legalising drugs won't change that."
Probably unlike yourself I have asked several heroin addicts their opinions and the vast majority of them would much prefer to not have to take the chance of overdosing everytime they shoot up, or go out stealing to pay off extortionary drug debts.


P.S I don't exspecially support the legalisation of all illegal drugs, you just seem to be making a lot of very one sided and ill linformed posts.

riptide

Drugs should be legalised so we can get the taxes off them. Actually in Holland, drug use only increased slightly among the dutch themselves, but the deaths associated with the drug business did fall. Drug realted crime did fall also. The only people that really need to be protected are the kids. Let the adults f'#k themselves up if they want or otherwise.
I beleive the reason some dutch areas are cutting back on the liberal attitude to drugs is because they are border towns in Holland where there is a lot of probelms with people smuggling the drugs out of the country.
My spelling is ****e tonight..

Terry

to make them less harmful

they would still be harmful.

fair enough so, do you feel the same about caffiene and alcohol? (just for my own curiosity)

no, i don't. neither are even remotely as addictive as heroin, cocaine or nicotene.

It may be possible this has happened, but I can't see why anyone would pay for methadone or phi when it's given out free of charge to anyone in a methadone program.

to get high. not everyone is given methadone. the average person just can't walk into a clinic and get it. i knew some kids a few years back who used to take methadone. i don't know how they got their hands on it, but i would imagine they bought it from a heroin addict.

Well if anyone is that stupid it's a miracle they haven't died form licking an electrical socket at this point.

or they took heroin, got addicted and died as a result of that.

You realise if these criminals would be inclined to turn to other criminal activity then they are more than likely all ready involved in those activities.
None psychoactive cannibas pills(marinol) are notoriously unaffective in allieviating the negative effects of chemotherapy (there primary use) aswell as killing pain (there secondary use) and that is the opinions or the patients themselves.

most likely. then you have the ones further down the ladder who deal exclusively in hash. how are they going to supplement thier income? a job or a second job? i think not.

Probably unlike yourself I have asked several heroin addicts their opinions and the vast majority of them would much prefer to not have to take the chance of overdosing everytime they shoot up, or go out stealing to pay off extortionary drug debts.

no. i have asked several heroin addicts their opinion on this. i wouldn't have brought it up in the first place otherwise. they were of the opinion that while legalisation may be a short term solution to some, it would inevitably lead to the legal heroin being cut and sold on down the line, much like is the case with methadone.

Terry

riptide wrote:

The only people that really need to be protected are the kids. Let the adults f'#k themselves up if they want or otherwise.

yeah, because only non drug users have children. let the adults fuck themselves up? what of the children of these adults or other children looking on? not really a good idea.

and what would you have the taxes spent on? healthcare for the swarm of junkies?

someone mentioned alcohol prohibition and how the numbers of drinkers dwindled with the relaxation of prohibition. are you so naive to think that the same thing would happen with addictive drugs?

riptide

julep wrote:

yeah, because only non drug users have children. let the adults fuck themselves up? what of the children of these adults or other children looking on? not really a good idea.

Those poor kids will always see that regardless of illegal or not.

julep wrote:

and what would you have the taxes spent on? healthcare for the swarm of junkies?
someone mentioned alcohol prohibition and how the numbers of drinkers dwindled with the relaxation of prohibition. are you so naive to think that the same thing would happen with addictive drugs?

You seem to be missing my previous point based on hard facts ---- in Holland, the number of dutch drug users only increased slightly! Yes slighly! So that means they'll be roughly the same 'swarm' of junkies and the same unfortunate kids looking on. But less drug related crime and more taxes. I hope more taxes cos if I had a say, I'd tax the drugs quite high and this may relieve some of the tax burden on others... Tax the coke heads in the clubs.. tax the E heads in the club, tax all the smoke heads... Have it taxed in such a way that the price of the drug still remains under street value today to ensure that the system still works. Now... in that situation you will still have criminals pedling 'cheap' drugs, the same way as they do with 'cheap' cigarettes on the street corners.

tunaman

julep wrote:

yeah, because only non drug users have children. let the adults fuck themselves up? what of the children of these adults or other children looking on? not really a good idea.

Alcohol is the perfect example of children copying what the adults do and your ridiculous claim that it's not a highly addictive drug is madness.

Have a look at some of the statistics.

http://www.drugsinfo.ie/Chapter%204.pdf

In 1990 we managed to consume 54.89 litres of
pure alcohol in the form of
spirits - 5.99 million litres spirits
beer - 19.40 million litres
wine - 15.54 million litres
cider - 13.95 million litres.

By 2000 the amount of alcohol consumed had
risen to
spirits - 8.99 million litres
beer - 23.84 million litres
wine - 44.29 million litres (up almost 300%)
cider - 74.56 million litres (up by more than
500%).

The Irish people spent €4,210 million on alcoholic beverages compared to €2,284 million in 1990.

In Ireland approximately 1.9 million people, aged 15 years and over, drink alcohol.

Among EU countries, Ireland has the highest percentage, at 25%, of people aged 15 years and over who abstain from alcohol.

Alcohol-related offences have increased from 22,482 prosecutions for all types of offences involving alcohol in 1992 to 34,887 prosecutions in 2000. This figure includes 10,269 prosecutions
relating to drunken driving, 2,045 prosecutions for drunkenness, and at least 14,687 prosecutions
for being intoxicated in a public place contrary to the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.
These figures do not include assaults and murders, many of which are alcohol-related.

Garda sources suggest that 88% of public order cases, 54% of criminal damage and 48% of cases
of offences against the person, are alcohol related.

One 1997 report indicated that 25% of all road accidents and 33% of deaths were alcohol related.

The SLçN survey (1999) showed that nearly 90% of 18-24 year olds are regular drinkers.

Approximately 17% of 9 - 11 year old boys and more than 50% of all 15 - 17 year olds reported that they were current drinkers.

A pattern of early involvement in heavy binge drinking leading to drunkenness is reflected in the ESPAD figure of 25% of Irish 15 - 16 year olds reporting they had been drunk by the time they were 13 years old.

Most overdose deaths in opiate users appear to involve alcohol in addition to the opiate. Recent studies also indicate that when alcohol is taken at the same time as cannabis that blood levels of THC from the cannabis are increased.



Let's compare all that with illegal drugs in Ireland.

http://www.drugsinfo.ie/ques9.htm

The most recent report from the DMRD was in October 2004. Its findings are based on two surveys:

The national Survey of Lifestyle, Attitudes and Nutrition (SLÁN); and

The National Advisory Committee on Drugs (NACD) and the Drugs and Alcohol Information and Research Unit (DAIRU) Drug Prevalence Survey.

The SLÁN Survey of Lifestyle, Attitudes and Nutrition was first undertaken in 1998 and repeated in the summer of 2002. The results were published in April 2003.

Key findings included:

The number of adults who have used marijuana or cannabis in their lifetime had increased by 4.2% in men and 3.2% in women. Their use in the previous 12 months had not changed much.

Use of cocaine had increased from 1.8% to 3.0% in men and from 0.6% in women to 1.9%.

Ecstasy rates had also increased since 1998 from 2.9% to 3.9% in men and from 1.5% to 2.4% in women.

Overall there was very little change in the reported use of other drugs in the last 12 months.

Cannabis use in the previous 12 months had not changed among boys (13.4% in 2002 and 14.0% in 1998) but had increased among girls (9.5% in 2002 compared with 6.7% in 1998).

The use of glue or solvents was 5.1% in boys and 4.1% in girls. The use of any other drug was 5.6% in boys and 4.1% in girls.

In October 2003 the first results from an all-Ireland survey of the general population, called the Drug Prevalence Survey (NACD and DAIRU 2003), were published. This was a joint initiative between the National Advisory Committee on Drugs (NACD) within the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in Northern Ireland.

The aim of the Drug Prevalence Survey was to find out how many people use illegal drugs such as cannabis, ecstasy, cocaine, and heroin.

Key findings included:

One in five people surveyed reported ever using an illegal drug; one in 18 reported using within the previous year, while one in 33 reported using in the previous month.

Cannabis is the most widely used illegal drug.

Use of other illegal drugs is lower and mostly by younger people.

More men use illegal drugs than women.

Women and older people report higher rates of sedative, tranquilliser and anti-depressant use.

shroomfox

Hey julep, here's the problem with your argument:

Alcohol is a legal and socially accepted drug. It kills thousands upon thousands of people across the world, and wrecks thousands of homes and lives. It's addictive. It's expensive.

There are other drugs that are not legal and not socially accepted. Disregarding the social stigma and any social problems which are attributed to them BECAUSE they are illegal, there is no difference between alcohol and other drugs.

You say drugs should be illegal because of all the problems that are associated with them because they're illegal. That's circular logic.

Gurgle

julep wrote:

for anyone who wants to see all drugs legalised, i suggest you talk to 1 of the 10,000 or so heroin addicts in the greater Dublin area and see how they feel about it.

Thats an excellent reason to legalize drugs, including heroin. If theres 10,000 addicts to an illegal drug, how many people do you think would 'try' heroin if it was legal?
Would you?

Laws against just aren't working. If there was 100 heroin addicts, you could argue that the illegality was keeping the numbers down - its not.

Heroin (apparently) costs around €1 to €2 per gramme to make.
What does it sell for on the street ?
The effects on the drug user are one thing, but surely allowing a cheap and uncontaminated supply would be in the interests of everyone else. It would cut out turf wars among the dealers as well as the muggings and robberys carried out by addicts who need a fix, or need to make a payment to avoid broken fingers.

elvis4sale

Gurgle wrote:

Thats an excellent reason to legalize drugs, including heroin. If theres 10,000 addicts to an illegal drug, how many people do you think would 'try' heroin if it was legal?
Would you?

Laws against just aren't working. If there was 100 heroin addicts, you could argue that the illegality was keeping the numbers down - its not.

Heroin (apparently) costs around €1 to €2 per gramme to make.
What does it sell for on the street ?
The effects on the drug user are one thing, but surely allowing a cheap and uncontaminated supply would be in the interests of everyone else. It would cut out turf wars among the dealers as well as the muggings and robberys carried out by addicts who need a fix, or need to make a payment to avoid broken fingers.

the problem needs to be adressed by the govt and society as a whole, there is a drugs pendemic sweping the nation and a lot of peopel seem to be blind to it, gone are the days when drugs were just for the disadvantaged and poorer class of society, its spread throughout society altogethr. and i think this is half the problem, because the drug culture is rampant among the young "profesionals" it has some how become socially acceptable!? cok for instance!!?

rubadub

julep wrote:

i don't think i've ever listened to the fm104 phone show. i have, however, listened to a methadone user who told me how her ex-boyfriend was selling his methadone to buy heroin.
i've also listened to a nurse from the clinic in ballyfermot who confirmed that this happens.
i've also listened to my friend, whose brother in-law sold his own methadone to buy heroin.
i've also listened to my cousins friend who told me that he used to sell his methadone.
i don't think any of these people were ever on the fm104 phone show, but i could be mistaken about that.
however, they did actually sell their methadon (a lot of the time to children) to get money for heroin.

For once I actually agree with you. I have been offered methadone myself twice, and have seen it offered to others. I broke out in sweats but I just about had enough willpower to say no thanks... Why on earth would I want a highly addictive drug that gives you no buzz (smokers may have the answer)

Methadone is a totally illogical solution, it is said to be worse for you and just as addictive as heroin. However it is better than "street heroin" as you do not have to deal with contamination and varying purity level. BUT this is due to the fact it is illegal.

Methadone has all of the addiction and none of the buzz, which suits the conservative people who have this extreme fear of people actually experiencing an altered state of conciousness. Just like you mentioned that cannabis should only be used when the psychoactive effects are removed. Some people just focus on addiciton as being the demon, but have no problem with people smoking cigarettes, since most users do not experience and altered state of conciousness on them. Most of these people simply have a low natural drive to experience such states, like some people have a low sex drive, or low appetite for food or power. They try to inflict their own views on people saying they must be "trying to escape" and have to be mentally unstable if they want to change their conciousness for a while.

Why do people take holidays, "jesus they must have some deep rooted childhood problem and must run away from everything every year for 2 weeks, sad individuals, I would hate to live like that, poor bastards, they really need help"

julep wrote:

then why add to the number of harmful legal drugs?

Because it would be hypocritical not to.

Binomate

Cba reading through this thread to see if it has been posted yet so I'll presume it has. In that case let's just revisit this phrase.

Drugs are bad, mmmkay..

rubadub

Binomate wrote:

Drugs are bad, mmmkay..

So go picket your local pharmacy :rolleyes:

Binomate

rubadub wrote:

So go picket your local pharmacy :rolleyes:

I'll do one better. I'll blow it up.

Gurgle

elvis4sale wrote:

i think this is half the problem, because the drug culture is rampant among the young "profesionals" it has some how become socially acceptable!? cok for instance!!?

Whats the problem with that?
Is the economy suffering?
We know drugs aren't risk free, coke/hash for breakfast is a bad idea, like alcohol.
Abuse will lead to dependence but responsible use of narcotics could (and does) do a lot to relieve the stresses of living in the modern world.

Fair enough the odd twit takes 11 Es in a night and drops dead, or snorts some heroin (ala Pulp Fiction).

Wouldn't the risk be somewhat reduced if:
1) The packet had a warning on it 'Do not exceed the stated dose or you'll die'
2) The stigma of breaking the law wasn't involved, when someone overdosed his friends might be quicker to take him to casualty and say 'he took a pile of Es'.

The biggest problem they have with overdoses in casualty is that nobody will tell them what was taken or how much.

ZiabR

rubadub wrote:

So go picket your local pharmacy :rolleyes:

Ok mate, can i ask you something then. You are saying that ALL drugs are bad for you and in 99% of cases you would be right. BUT can you seriously tell me that if you were very very sick, maybe even terminaly ill that you would not take drugs to ease your pain or give you a few months - years to live???

99% of drugs have side effects that can be harmful but most of their pros way outway their cons...

Gurgle

logik wrote:

99% of drugs have side effects that can be harmful but most of their pros way outway their cons...

And that doesn't just apply to drugs.
Some people abuse fast food to such an extent that they gain weight and eventually die from a related illness. Obesity is (allegedly) a more common problem with teenagers than drugs.
Don't see anyone campaigning to have McDonalds banned.
Why?
Because the vast majority of people who use McDonalds only do it once or twice a week with no ill effects.

-edit- Another point:
I'd much rather catch my son smoking a joint than inhaling solvents / air freshner etc. Much lower risk of immediete heart failure. Solvent-based glue and air-freshners are of course cheap and readily available.

ZiabR

-edit- Another point:
I'd much rather catch my son smoking a joint than inhaling solvents / air freshner etc. Much lower risk of immediete heart failure. Solvent-based glue and air-freshners are of course cheap and readily available.

I very much agree with you on this point.

rubadub

logik wrote:

Ok mate, can i ask you something then. You are saying that ALL drugs are bad for you and in 99% of cases you would be right.

No, I am saying all drugs/substances are potentially harmful and have the potential for abuse. Just because a minority abuse something is no reason to ban it. People abuse knives, so what, ban all kitchen knives? People snort caffeine pills to the extent of causing themselves physical harm, ban tea & chocolate?

logik wrote:

BUT can you seriously tell me that if you were very very sick, maybe even terminaly ill that you would not take drugs to ease your pain or give you a few months - years to live???

Of course I would. I was pointing out that the vast majority of people take drugs. Some people have a convenient blinkered view of what a drug is. Earlier in the thread you said you take no drugs at all, then came back saying you do infact drink and take caffeine, you do take drugs and I presume you enjoy them and do them in moderation.

The majority of doctors would consider amphetamine a far safer drug than caffeine. People seem blind to the fact that illegal drugs can, and are taken in moderation, yet have no problem accepting that legal drugs can be taken in moderation. This is no reason to ban it though, if taken in moderate doses like people drinking coffee it is a safer drug. I have no real problem if amphetamine is illegal as long as caffeine is too, the hypocrisy of the laws is what I am complaining about, and this "all drugs* are bad mmmkayyy" attitude, which has this disclaimer of *-except the ones I take cos they aren't real drugs

logik wrote:

99% of drugs have side effects that can be harmful but most of their pros way outway their cons...

Yep, if used at suitable doses, my point exactly.

-edit- Another point:
I'd much rather catch my son smoking a joint than inhaling solvents / air freshner etc. Much lower risk of immediete heart failure. Solvent-based glue and air-freshners are of course cheap and readily available.

I very much agree with you on this point.

So logically if you think cannabis should be banned, then inhalants should be too? Or is it that most people will use them for something else? In which case you should be free to grow cannabis since the majority of users will use it for hemp.

ZiabR

So logically if you think cannabis should be banned, then inhalants should be too? Or is it that most people will use them for something else? In which case you should be free to grow cannabis since the majority of users will use it for hemp.

This is a lose, lose situation. It falls back again onto what we as society see as 'OK and 'NOT OK'.

Terry

this has just turned into the same old arguement.
poster #1 "drugs are bad"
poster #2 "well then stop drinking tea, because tea has caffiene in it and caffiene is a drug"
poster #1 "that's not what i meant"
poster #2 "but drugs are everywhere and heroin is good for you if you take pharmaceutical grade heroin. i saw it on tv and a DOCTOR was taking it for years and he was fine, so let's legalise it and take it out of the hands of the criminals"
poster #1 "people will still become addicted"
poster #2 "but people are addicted to alcohol and that's legal"
poster #1 "heroin is far more addictive than alcohol"
poster #2 "studies have blah blah blah blah blah"

i'm done.

psilocybe

Nobody said heroin was good for you, its just not as bad as it has been portrayed. As I said, most, if not all, of the problems associated with addiction are caused by prohibition.

Terry

i told myself i would stop posting in this thread, but here i go again. it's like an addiction.
people are still going to become addicted to heroin if it is legal. they are still going to mug you with a blood filled syringe. making it legal will not take away the addictive qualities, nor will it lower the price. do you really think it is wise to sell heroin at half the street value? that just means junkies will buy twice as much, become more tolerant to it and need more and more and so on.

shroomfox

they are still going to mug you with a blood filled syringe.

Look, I don't think heroin should be legalised either. But you're taking the most extreme sensationalist possible examples and then saying that that's the way it is across the board - and it's just not true.

You seem to see legality as a government endorsement. It's not. Things become legal or illegal because either people are entitled to something, or there's a law which can make them safer. For instance, if prostitution were legalised we could have a greater role in protecting women who work in a dangerous industry.

My take on this argument:
poster #1 "drugs are bad"
poster #2 "Well then stop drinking tea, because tea has caffiene in it and caffiene is a drug"
poster #1 "yeah, but heroin kills people"
poster #2 "...yes, but a lot of the time BECAUSE it's illegal. And so does alcohol"
poster #1 "yeah, but heroin's addictive"
poster #2 "So is alcohol"
poster #1 "heroin is far more addictive than alcohol"
poster #2 "Well, not really. And what does that matter anyway? Why is addictiveness in itself a bad quality?"
poster #1 "because heroin kills people!"
poster #2 "Hmm."

rubadub

julep wrote:

i told myself i would stop posting in this thread, but here i go again. it's like an addiction.
people are still going to become addicted to heroin if it is legal. they are still going to mug you with a blood filled syringe. making it legal will not take away the addictive qualities, nor will it lower the price. do you really think it is wise to sell heroin at half the street value? that just means junkies will buy twice as much, become more tolerant to it and need more and more and so on.

Apply that same reasoning to alcohol in prohibition times and you will see why it is flawed.

Terry

it always comes back to the alcohol arguement.
it's like kids arguing.
he has sweets, why can't i have some.
they are different things altogether. people can go out every night for two or three pints and not become alcoholics. do heroin once every night and you will become addicted. you cannot put alcohol and heroin in the same catergory. they are completely different things.

Gurgle

julep wrote:

they are still going to mug you with a blood filled syringe. making it legal will not take away the addictive qualities, nor will it lower the price. do you really think it is wise to sell heroin at half the street value? that just means junkies will buy twice as much, become more tolerant to it and need more and more and so on.

Sry mate, but thats absolute sh`it.
As I said earlier, the production cost for heroin is €1 to €2 per gramme. How much could an addict possibly use?

Terry

how much does it cost to make cigarettes?

psilocybe

Smokers don't have to pay about a tenner everytime they want to smoke. If they did they'd be out robbing too.

Terry

my point was that the government would heavily tax heroin if it was legal.
do you really think they would sell it for €1 or €2 a gramme?

i have absolutely no sympathy for junkies. they knew heroin was addictive when they started using it, so they have no-one to blame but themselves. they knew it was cut, they knew it might kill them, but they still took it. legalising it won't change a thing. you give a heroin addict some gear for €2 a gramme and watch how they cut it and sell on what they don't need for themselves. then watch how more and more people become addicted. give them good quality heroin for the price they are currently paying on the street for the crap they take and the same thing will happen.

rubadub

julep wrote:

they are different things altogether.

No they are not.

julep wrote:

people can go out every night for two or three pints and not become alcoholics. do heroin once every night and you will become addicted.

bollocks. I am blue in the face talking about this. ALL DRUGS CAN BE TAKEN IN MODERATION

People can and do take heroin without becoming addicts, just like people can drink every night and not be an addict.

If alcohol was illegal people and heroin was legal, and your daddy took heroin and Bertie took it, and when Bill clinton came to visit they went to the local opium house and enjoyed a threshold dose of smoked local heroin then it would be fine. If alcohol was illegal the media and anti-drug campaingers would have a field day portraying it as the most anti-social, harmful drug in existence.

-ALL users fly into an uncontrollable rage, men beating their wives is very common.
-Highly addictive, all users become addicts, no such thing as a moderate dose,
-Loose their jobs due to the money they spend on it
-Rob houses and mug people for their next fix.
-frequently overdose straining A&E.
-frequent accidents straining A&E
-driving cars killing people
-Funding criminal activity
etc
etc

You are fooling only yourself by saying there is no comparison. It is just an easy way out. You are the one acting like a kid arguing, putting your fingers in your ears "LA LA LA, I CANT HEAR YOU, YOU DONT COUNT".

If ALL recreational drugs were illegal there would be no argument from me about this hypocrisy.

psilocybe

It would never be sold for 2Euro a gram. A gram is a fairly large amount of heroin but it could be sold at a reasonable price, which would reduce the need for junkies to rob, and it could be taxed and any money made from taxing it could be used to treat addicts. ATM the state is paying for drug treatment and for treatment of absesses, gangrene etc caused by dirty gear etc.

Terry

do you really believe that you can take heroin every night without becoming addicted to it? explain the heroin epidemic to me then and how it came to be that 10,000 people in the greater Dublin area are heroin addicts. that's one in every thousand people. i think you will find that the number of alcoholics is much lower in comparison to usage.
heroin can not be taken in the same way as alcohol. you can't take heroin every night and not become addicted to it. it's physically impossible. there is the difference.

Terry

legalising it would encourage more people to use it. 'ah sure ye can get it off the state for only a few quid. it's bleedin' great'.

Executive Steve

another week, another boards thread on the old recreational pharmaceuticals...


1. from time immemorial, people have been taking and inventing ways and methods to feel a little bit nicer for a wee little while. alcohol [from the arabic word for satanic, etymology fans!] caffeine, sugar, chocolate, coca, cannabis, mushrooms... etc etc etc.

2. in the past 150 years the progress of science has allowed us to unlock the "active ingredients" in many of these substances. something as harmless as coca for instance can be processed to yield the pure alkaloid cocaine. glucose and fructose can be refined to make pure white sugar, wine can be distilled to make brandy.

3. some of these "drugs" are quite legal, some of them are heavily proscribed. a kilo of coke costs you about €50.000 or ten years in prison - thats a longer sentence than someone who rapes a child.

4. the legal drugs will never be made illegal. there is too much money to be made.

5. the illegal drugs will never be made legal. they are too useful a votewinner [every politician likes a scapegoat so they can point to the "real evil" in society] and they employ too many people in their policing - people's livelihoods on both sides of the fence depend on the illegality of substances that are far more valuable through their illegality than through any intrinsic worth they have as far as the cost of production is concerned.

6. there is not one single social ill that arises from drug use that would not be solved or at the very least ameliorated by decriminalisation or full blown legalisation.

psilocybe

julep wrote:

do you really believe that you can take heroin every night without becoming addicted to it?

I also very much doubt you could use alcohol every night without becoming addicted to it.

shroomfox

I declare: [cm]tyranny wins the thread.

rubadub

julep wrote:

i have absolutely no sympathy for junkies. they knew heroin was addictive when they started using it, so they have no-one to blame but themselves. they knew it was cut, they knew it might kill them, but they still took it. legalising it won't change a thing.

I agree the user base will increase, but legalising it will change things overall there would be less deaths even if there were a huge increase in users, since the main cause of death is due to its illegality.

When mushrooms were legal they costed more in the shops than on the black market, this is still true in holland. Just like illegal alcohol costs less than in shops here too. People pay more for assurance and quality. If dunnes have a 50% sale on wine it doesnt mean everybody goes out and drinks twice as much....

Terry

we're talking about heroin here, not bottles of wine. more availability will mean more use. you become more and more tolerant to its effects and need more and more to get high from it. don't give me the line that if it was legal, then the junkies would be able to wean themselves off it easier. they tried that with the methadone clinics and you can see how well that worked out. besides, they are not taking heroin to feel normal. the will get high from it at any opportunity.
i'm gonna go now and have a conversation with a wall.

Gurgle

shroomfox wrote:

I declare: [cm]tyranny wins the thread.

I support this declaration.

julep wrote:

more availability will mean more use

I un-support this declaration.

julep wrote:

i'm gonna go now and have a conversation with a wall

Which will silently agree with everything you have to say.

psilocybe

julep wrote:

we're talking about heroin here, not bottles of wine. more availability will mean more use. you become more and more tolerant to its effects and need more and more to get high from it.

As you do with alcohol. Methadone didn't work because it is a much harder drug to give up than heroin. Heroin withdrawel lasts a few days while withdrawel from methadone can last for several weeks, this is why many addicts end up back on heroin.

mise_me_fein_V2

One of my friends said he smoked Heroin and he said it was unbelievable.

Not my scene though.

The only heroin I'll be dealing with is my Granny

Terry

for the love of god. heroin is far more addictive than alcohol. heroin addicts are not nice people and when they need heroin, they will do anything to get it. it's not a drug to be messed with. why can't you see this? legalising it will make it more available and there will be more heroin addicts on the street. it will also take away the desire to quit. why quit when you can get some good gear off the state? hey, dave. let's try some heroin tonight. it doesn't matter if we get addicted. the state will look after us and keep giving us good gear until the day we die.
have any of you ever actually been addicted to something (other than cigarettes)? it's extremely difficult to come off prescription drugs. i don't really think we need another 10,000 heroin addicts wandering the streets and driving while they're off their head (yeah, they do that too. the breathalyser doesn't detect illegal drugs).
how many times have you read that people turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives? how many more people would turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives if it was available on the medical card?

aww. the poor heroin addicts. they must have had a terrible life to end up that way. what a load of crap. they started off smoking weed, then tried 'E', then speed and coke and eventually heroin. don't tell me that it doesn't happen that way. ask any junkie what the first illegal drug they tried was. they'll all give you the same answer.

psilocybe

julep wrote:

heroin is far more addictive than alcohol. heroin addicts are not nice people and when they need heroin, they will do anything to get it. it's not a drug to be messed with. why can't you see this? legalising it will make it more available and there will be more heroin addicts on the street. it will also take away the desire to quit. why quit when you can get some good gear off the state? hey, dave. let's try some heroin tonight. it doesn't matter if we get addicted. the state will look after us and keep giving us good gear until the day we die.
have any of you ever actually been addicted to something (other than cigarettes)? it's extremely difficult to come off prescription drugs. i don't really think we need another 10,000 heroin addicts wandering the streets and driving while they're off their head (yeah, they do that too. the breathalyser doesn't detect illegal drugs).
how many times have you read that people turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives? how many more people would turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives if it was available on the medical card?

aww. the poor heroin addicts. they must have had a terrible life to end up that way. what a load of crap. they started off smoking weed, then tried 'E', then speed and coke and eventually heroin. don't tell me that it doesn't happen that way. ask any junkie what the first illegal drug they tried was. they'll all give you the same answer.

Heroin is not far more addictive than alcohol and to say addicts are "not nice people" is a ridiculous generalisation. You could say that some addicts are not nice people just like some alcoholics and smokers are not nice people.

How will legalising take away the desire to quit? People don't quit because it's illegal, it's not like it's hard to get. And who ever mentioned giving out heroin on the medical card? The solution I mentioned was to sell heroin of a standard purity for a reasonable price and tax it, just like alcohol and tobacco is sold.

rubadub

julep wrote:

for the love of god. heroin is far more addictive than alcohol..

so what? nicotine is far more addictive than heroin, big deal....

let's try some heroin tonight. it doesn't matter if we get addicted. the state will look after us and keep giving us good gear until the day we die

julep wrote:

how many more people would turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives if it was available on the medical card?.

Does the state give out free booze and cigarettes? why do you think they would do so with this particular recreational drug??

aww. the poor heroin addicts. they must have had a terrible life to end up that way. what a load of crap.

I totally agree. And judging by the other thread about smokers being "second class citizens" most others would agree and have very little sympathy for them.

they started off smoking weed, then tried 'E', then speed and coke and eventually heroin.

I think you skipped a few drugs at the start there!. oh sorry they aren't real drugs, so you can go bury your head in the sand again

ask any junkie what the first illegal drug they tried was

why are you so hung up about legalities? So you can insist that people don't bring up points that you have no answer to, you should talk to that wall you mentioned, I think you would prefer something that won't upset or question your illogical ideas

shroomfox

Julep, you're just making the same assertions over and over again without any kind of evidence.

The Sunday World doesn't count by the way. I assume you're a fan.

cheeky_guy

Hash makes you go soft when youre shagging a girl, thats worse than any heroin!

SpAcEd OuT

julep wrote:

for the love of god. heroin is far more addictive than alcohol. heroin addicts are not nice people and when they need heroin, they will do anything to get

how many times have you read that people turn to heroin to escape their miserable lives?

I'm sick of your ****, you keep saying alcohol addiction is nothing compared to heroin addiction and its absoloute bull****, having had countless friends addicted to alcohol and one friend addicted to heroin, I have seen both sides of withdrawal and there is no diffrence, my mates addicted to alcohol still stole money, lied, had spasms, puked, sweat and became aggressive when they were going through withdrawels, one friend had to be watched over going through his withdrawels because they were afraid he might die. Most relapsed at least twice. Some of them have damaged their bodies beyond repair, the heroin junkie, who is now clean, has not harmed his physical health in anyway. I know of many friends who take small doses of heroin occasionally for years and are not addicted, so your theory that everyone who uses heroin occasionally becomes an addict is bull****

when people are going through a rough time they abuse any drug, that includes your beloved alcohol, its not just confined to heroin to think so is ignorant

Terry

ok. let's make heroin legal. let's give everyone the opportunity to take it constantly, because it seems that it's not all that bad. i mean, all you people said it's not too bad, so you must be right. let's take it to the dail and get them to legalise it. absolutely nothing could go wrong. maybe i'll start banging up later today. i mean, it's won't kill me if i get some good gear and i won't get addicted, becaus i'm not addicted to alcohol and someone pointed out that heroin is less addictive than alcohol.

what kills me is that the people clamouring for drugs to be legalised are the same people who give out about alcoholics. (yes, i said drugs. you know which ones i mean. stop pointing out that caffiene is a drug. we all know that and don't really give a shit.)
saying that heroin should be legal because alcohol is legal is the most ridiculous arguement i have ever heard.

shroomfox, i don't read the sunday papers. i don't need a newsp[aper to tell me what i have seen with my own eyes my entire life. heroin ****s you up and it fucks your family up too. tell my neighbour that it doesn't fuck you up. no, wait, you can't he's dead. he shared a needle and ended up with aids. yes, there is a needle exchange programme out there. do you really think a heroin addict will travel and get a clean needle, or will they just use the one that's right beside them?
legalising heroin will not make a bit of a difference. yes, i'm repeating myself, but that's only to try and get the message through. i don't think any of you comprehend how lethal it is.
just because the sunday times doesn't report it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.