Banned Permanently From Islamic Forum

_Turismo4

DeVore wrote:

Yet you've chosen to respond to everyone's post but mine.

Spotted that, But I think it’s Getting to him. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

I ask again - is there a ban on people visiting the Islamic forum for a reason? An answer would be nice this time.:)

Not at all. You are more then welcome to come and visit and read the forum. You can use the URL dontlogin.boards.ie if you want to continue reading the forum.

You personally are just not welcome to post in it.

Hagar

metrovelvet wrote:

Separation of Church and state arose with Henry VIII.

I always thought that Church and State were separate up to the point where Henry VIII declared himself to be not only "Head of State" but also "Head of the Church".

Wibbs

metrovelvet wrote:

Separation of Church and state arose with Henry VIII.

As Hagar argued Henry brought together church and state when he declared himself the head of the English church.

Democracy was a direct result of the protestant reformation and the time during Liz I. And what was sweeping across Northern Europe.

It had some influence certainly, but not anything like the degree you would like to think.

We can thank the Protestants for the free world.

Utter nonsense frankly. It's like saying we can thank the catholics for the renaissance(actually that hold up better).

Catholicism doesnt like democracy and it doesnt look like Islam is too crazy about it either.

The christian faith has more latitude for church/state seperation than Islam for a number of reasons. For a start the lines in the gospels that say "give all to Caesar that is Caesars" and "my kingdom is not of this earth", suggested a clear line between church and state that was used and abused by ruling types long before Martin Luther was ever dreamt of. The lack of a code of law(10 commandments don't count) and politics in the Christian texts also reduce the need for strong links between church and state. Islam has codes of law, daily life and politics far beyond most other religions, hence the seperation may be more difficult.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

Not at all. You are more then welcome to come and visit and read the forum. You can use the URL dontlogin.boards.ie if you want to continue reading the forum.

You personally are just not welcome to post in it.

Censorship and stiflement of debate then? Why not move it to News/Media or politics? All I'm asking for is a fair crack of the whip.;)

Freddie59

DeVore wrote:

Freddie, Karl is neither the mod of this forum nor the mod of the Islam forum, so he's speaking to you as a fellow poster.

I, on the other hand, am an administrator of the entire site. Yet you've chosen to respond to everyone's post but mine.

DeV.

Apologies for that:

Just to recap. Hobbes has taken issue with the fact that I posted some points which he didn't agree with, and used the religionofpeace link as an excuse to remove my other points (which were valid to the argument). That is his right, as a mod.

As is my right I questioned this. Another mod took offence with the mere suggestion that a contributor actually dare question the decision of a mod.
His right also - but came across, IMO, as extremely arrogant and condescending.

The Islamic forum seems to be afforded a protection that others do not enjoy. Many posting there, who castigate western ideals and freedoms, post similar threads throughout other fora on boards.ie without reproach.

The wider issue raised here is the cannibalising of a post/thread by a mod. This in turn leaves the thread open to misinterpretation, and is quite unjust. I would ask again that my contributions to the particual thread be restored in the interests of fair debate. Remove the religionofpeace link if required, but let the thread run it's course.

This can be dressed up in many ways, but ultimately it's about censorship and stiflement of debate. Not only that, it appears that a concerted effort is being made to confine people to particular fora in order that they do not 'offend' those who choose to raise particular subjects in a forum where they do not belong.

As I've said alread the the boards.ie slogan 'now ye're talkin'' rings very hollow indeed. Poople should be free to browse any forum they like, and contribute to any forum they like - or is there a rule specifically prohibiting this?

If there is then it should be removed - as soon as possible.:)

Gordon

Freddie59 wrote:

Continue banning me if you want - but stifling debate?

Freddie59 wrote:

All I'm asking for is a fair crack of the whip.;)

Make up your mind.

Freddie59

Talliesin wrote:

[*]Freedom of speech applies to this site in so far as the rights of those who run it (I mean the admins and the directors of Boards, not the moderators) should be allowed to do so as they wish. That includes appointing Hobbes as moderator and his in turn banning you even if he was completely wrong to do so.

Given your stated belief in Freedom of Speech you should be prepared to make a Paynian declaration of your intent to fight to the death to defend Hobbes' right to ban you.

Fair point. But likewise, in the interests of free speech, I am entitled to lodge a complaint and hope that the person on the receiving end may just step back for a minute and consider that I may actually have a valid point. But this would require doing so in an unbiased manner.;)

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

Hobbes has taken issue with the fact that I posted some points which he didn't agree with, and used the religionofpeace link as an excuse to remove my other points (which were valid to the argument). That is his right, as a mod.

Incidently when your posts are deleted the admins can still read them. But your permanent ban was not based on one single incident. Nothing is Cannabilsed at all.

Here is a history of your time on the forum.

03-02-2006, 13:17 - Sort of lumps Muslims in with suicide bombers.
04-02-2006, 16:16 - Brings up 9/11 as argument that Muslims are a threat.
04-02-2006, 18:01 - Discussing Iraq (offtopic) and comparing muslims to OBL+Afganistan as examples.
04-02-2006, 18:19 - Everyone on the thread is asked to remain on topic or thread will be closed [Hobbes]
05-02-2006, 12:00 - Compares Islam to Nazis and Communism.
05-02-2006, 17:23 - Reiterates his premise on OBL+Afganistan.
05-02-2006, 17:38 - Asked again to keep the thread on topic and to take Political issues to the politics forum [Hobbes]
05-02-2006, 17:49 - Mentions that AQ are intwined with everything in the middle East (offtopic).
05-02-2006, 18:07 - Asked to bring the thread on topic again [Hobbes]
06-02-2006, 08:48 - Questions moderators ruling to stay on topic.
06-02-2006, 12:52 - Explained Charter to him [Hobbes]
06-02-2006, 13:18 - Again disagrees with Moderator.
06-02-2006, 14:30 - Again explained in detail the Charter and told he is more then welcome to continue his line of discussion in a forum better suited. Told if there is any more questions they should be referred to the correct thead as laid out in the charter. Warned they would be banned if they continued to disrupt the thread. [Hobbes]
06-02-2006, 18:27 - Tells me he doesn't care what I wrote and continues on how Muslims are a threat.
06-02-2006, 18:31 - Banned for 1 week. At this point continues on in Private messages where again it is explained he is better posting that sort of stuff in Humanities or Politics.
[ban lifted after 1 week]
12-03-2006, 18:03 - posts questionable link.
12-03-2006, 18:10 - Declares that Muslims "very organised threat to our western ways, cultures, and lives exists as a credible threat.", points out that it is ok if we do the reverse (ie. impose western values on the middle east) and Brings up the 9/11 chestnut.
[Banned for one month]
Checked link and then ban made permanent.

Now if I was trying to "Censor the truth" like you said I would of deleted all that crap you posted and banned you at the first post. I wouldn't of polietly discussed it with you, asked you a couple of times to stay on topic, warn you then ban you. After coming back from the ban you started the same crap up again.

Also I see comments from those I ban how I let people go on about other religons without them being censored/banned. Well as mentioned before. Please go to the post in question and click report post. The option is there for a reason.

Talliesin

Freddie59 wrote:

But likewise, in the interests of free speech, I am entitled to lodge a complaint and hope that the person on the receiving end may just step back for a minute and consider that I may actually have a valid point.

Well no Free Speech entitles you to absolutely nothing on this site. Free Speech entitles the owners of this site to run it. It entitles you to run a different site. It entitles you to march from the Garden of Rememberence to the Dáil carrying a banner saying "let me into the Islam forum on boards". It does not entitle you to argue about a banning on boards - quite the opposite, it means the owners of the site can decide not to allow you to do so.

The policies of this board allow you to post here. Don't mistake that for an innate right. Neither of us have a right to say anything here.

Still. You've taken the opportunity that is given to you by the admins policy. Why don't you try coming up with a coherent argument?

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

Incidently when your posts are deleted the admins can still read them. But your permanent ban was not based on one single incident. Nothing is Cannabilsed at all.

Here is a history of your time on the forum.

Now if I was trying to "Censor the truth" like you said I would of deleted all that crap you posted and banned you at the first post. I wouldn't of polietly discussed it with you, asked you a couple of times to stay on topic, warn you then ban you. After coming back from the ban you started the same crap up again.

Also I see comments from those I ban how I let people go on about other religons without them being censored/banned. Well as mentioned before. Please go to the post in question and click report post. The option is there for a reason.

Like any censor you have taken extracts from entire threads and taken them out of the context in which they were expressed. Well done. Nice try;) :rolleyes: .

I beg to differ about the cannibalisation. You have printed extracts from the reply which I posted on 12/3/06 (and which remains removed). 9/11 forms one of the core arguments as to 'why the West is so afraid of Islam'. By removing it you subvert the whole argument.

So what you're saying is that 9/11 (old chestnutt - odd way to describe a terrorist attack) in which 3,000 people of all creeds and cultures were murdered by fanatical Islamics cannot be grought up because it is NOT VALID??!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gordon

OK Freddie, your bickering for the sake of bickering is really getting annoying.

Any reason why I shouldn't siteban you for signing up new accounts to circumvent bans on Satellite and Cable/MMDS/Broadband? Or are you going to say that frameless et al are your sisters/brothers or other members of your family?

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

Like any censor you have taken extracts from entire threads and taken them out of the context in which they were expressed. Well done. Nice try;) :rolleyes: .

Which is why I left the times in so you could cross reference. Nothing out of context. Just a running theme.

9/11 forms one of the core arguments as to 'why the West is so afraid of Islam'. By removing it you subvert the whole argument.

Granted. However there is a difference between saying that and then inferring that the whole religon is the same as the people you are pointing out.

So what you're saying is that 9/11 (old chestnutt - odd way to describe a terrorist attack) in which 3,000 people of all creeds and cultures were murdered by fanatical Islamics cannot be grought up because it is NOT VALID??!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Of course its valid, however again you are trying to infer the actions of a handful of people is reflective of the religon as a whole.

[edit] I pretty much rest my case now.

Zombrex

Karl Hungus wrote:

As far as I see the situation, I don't think Freddy should've been banned, but rather the thread in question should've been moved to Humanities or Politics. I believe the Islam board is there discussion solely of the religion itself, not the politics of it, or the social issues brought up by that specific thread. As it is, discussing a topic that's called "Why is the west afraid of Islam?" isn't suited to a forum like Islam, as it has far greater scope of discussion than the Islam board really allows.

I agree totally with this assessment.

The original thread should never have been allowed in the first place. The Islam forum is not the place for non-Muslims to criticise the Islamic relgion and as such threads inviting such criticism should be moved to some where like Humanities.

Freddie should not have been banned, but his posts and the entire thread should have been moved out of Islamic forum.

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

The original thread should never have been allowed in the first place. The Islam forum is not the place for non-Muslims to criticise the Islamic relgion and as such threads inviting such criticism should be moved to some where like Humanities.

*sigh*

Look the thread in question was opened by a Muslim and was just for general questions. There is a difference between listing what may be causes of why Muslims as a whole are feared and actually equating those issues as a basis of fact on everyone in that demographic.

That is the distinction.
For example... (examples are not peoples posts).

Good: "I am scared of Islam because I heard so many stories of how it restricts womens rights and terrorist extremists"

- In this instance the person is stating what they believe. Its a valid point and certainly would get a level headed response.

Bad: "I think you are all nutters who like to blow people up and subjugate women. Thats why everyone hates you".

- Similar viewpoint except that latter is not really open for debate. The person has already made up thier mind and no amount of debate is going to change that. If anything it is just going to return with something more offensive.

Now there are others in said thread who voice thier opinion as the first part. It is valid discussion, and part of the forum is to dispel some of the crap that people hear but it is hard to do that when your dealing with a person who doesn't actually care what your answer is.

Freddie should not have been banned, but his posts and the entire thread should have been moved out of Islamic forum.

If he hadn't of been banned for this it would of been a matter of time where he would of been banned later on. The thread just pointed it out sooner then later.

RE*AC*TOR

1. If the question is opened by a muslim, should it be treated differently from that of a non-muslim? What if he/she posted a topic - "i am a muslim, where can I buy an Xbox360?"

2. I think the difference between the two examples is phrasing of the language so as to not upset anyone. This goes back to my previous point that we are all big/boys and girls and shouldn't be so timid in our discussions.

Zillah

Gordon wrote:

OK Freddie, your bickering for the sake of bickering is really getting annoying.

Any reason why I shouldn't siteban you for signing up new accounts to circumvent bans on Satellite and Cable/MMDS/Broadband? Or are you going to say that frameless et al are your sisters/brothers or other members of your family?

Zing! Harsh dude, harsh.

Hobbes

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

1. If the question is opened by a muslim, should it be treated differently from that of a non-muslim? What if he/she posted a topic - "i am a muslim, where can I buy an Xbox360?"

I think you are arguing for the sake of it. The point I was trying to get across that the thread wasn't opened just for people to have a go at Muslims in the forum.

2. I think the difference between the two examples is phrasing of the language so as to not upset anyone.

No one is a genuine question where people can answer, the other is just trying to annoy people in the forum. Even as I keep pointing out and some people fail to grasp is that the forum is not there for you to post in to have a go at Muslims. Its in the charter, and if you can't follow the Charter there are plenty of other forums where you can vent.

.. as far as I am concerned the issue is closed (just going around in circles at this point).

Freddie59

Gordon wrote:

OK Freddie, your bickering for the sake of bickering is really getting annoying.

Any reason why I shouldn't siteban you for signing up new accounts to circumvent bans on Satellite and Cable/MMDS/Broadband? Or are you going to say that frameless et al are your sisters/brothers or other members of your family?

Gordon - I have argued long and hard, as Freddie 59, in many threads where the Islamic/American issue has reared it's head. (Please see my PM to you). It would have been very easy, as you say, and as many, many, have done, to register under a different name. I have not done so - ergo my debate with Hobbes.

I may not like his responses or actions, but at least it is a debate on those actions and issues. You siteban me all you want - I can't stop it - but it won't stop others. Is it really so objectionable to you that someone is entitled to argue their case - or are we supposed to fade away and behave in the manner to which you want us to?:)

Freddie59

Wicknight wrote:

I agree totally with this assessment.

The original thread should never have been allowed in the first place. The Islam forum is not the place for non-Muslims to criticise the Islamic relgion and as such threads inviting such criticism should be moved to some where like Humanities.

Freddie should not have been banned, but his posts and the entire thread should have been moved out of Islamic forum.

Thank you Wicknight. A very valid observation.:)

metrovelvet

So wait, only Muslims should be allowed to post on the Islam forum?

I have a solution: make a forum called Americana and another called the West where only people from these places can post. And only post nice things because we live in a smiley happy world.

Oh and because there is no Judaism forum, Hobbes, I think I ll start with your forum to talk about Judaism since geographically this is the most adjacent religion.

Freddie59

metrovelvet wrote:

So wait, only Muslims should be allowed to post on the Islam forum?

I have a solution: make a forum called Americana and another called the West where only people from these places can post. And only post nice things because we live in a smiley happy world.

Oh and because there is no Judaism forum, Hobbes, I think I ll start with your forum to talk about Judaism since geographically this is the most adjacent religion.

No Judaism forum? Hmmmmmmm - didn't realise that!:eek:

Very good points all round.

Crash

metrovelvet, thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard (your last sentence that is).

for the record, a judaism forum was requested, and there was little support. i think there was one poster who called us all bastards and anti-semitic (actually i think he called us anti-semetic cus someone made a post on their views on Israel, which always riles me up) so lets leave that one for the forum request forum, eh?

Hobbes

You siteban me all you want - it won't change anything.

Its funny you said the same thing in the Islam forum. Unlike me Gordon doesn't put up with crap.

So wait, only Muslims should be allowed to post on the Islam forum?

Kindly stop spouting crap. k thx.

Oh and because there is no Judaism forum, Hobbes, I think I ll start with your forum to talk about Judaism since geographically this is the most adjacent religion.

Or I could just ban you now and be one less muppet I'd have to worry about.

Btw Judisim forum didn't get more then 15 people interested in it so it wasn't made. Only reason. As for US centric boards, try www.boards.us.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

As for US centric boards, try www.boards.us.

Good link. Thanks.:)

Zombrex

Hobbes wrote:

Good: "I am scared of Islam because I heard so many stories of how it restricts womens rights and terrorist extremists"

Bad: "I think you are all nutters who like to blow people up and subjugate women. Thats why everyone hates you".

I see your point, but at the same time the first "Good" example is quite non committed to a definiate point of view. By saying "heard so many stories" it implies that the original poster is admitting they might be wrong in the first place. How often does that happen on Boards.ie?

What if someone wrote

"I am scared of Islam because I know how it restricts womens rights and I know it inspires terrorism"

That is basically the second "bad" example phrased in a slightly more diplomatic manner. But it is saying the same thing, and you end up at the same point, with people arguing the same things.

My experience with Boards.ie is that threads and forums with rules along the lines of post what you like but make sure you let it be known it is just your opinion and you might be wrong (ie the "I've heard stories" type posts) never work out. You are pretty much expecting everyone to post non-comittal points of view. Freddie59 can't say he thinks Islam is dangerous, only that he might believe based on certain reports that it might be dangerous but he might be wrong.

More importantly threads that invite these types of posts are equally trouble-some and should be moved before they get started. IMHO

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

What if someone wrote

"I am scared of Islam because I know how it restricts womens rights and I know it inspires terrorism"

Well for starters it isn't true for the whole, but if you backed it up with sources it wouldn't be an issue. Also being confrontational to begin with does nothing to do help the debate.

You are pretty much expecting everyone to post non-comittal points of view. Freddie59 can't say he thinks Islam is dangerous, only that he might believe based on certain reports that it might be dangerous but he might be wrong.

Wrong on both counts. He is more then welcome to talk about this in other areas of boards.

Try think of the forum more this way. Lets imagine there is a model airplane club with people who share the same interests. Someone may show up one day and say "I heard this was for geeks only". They might be civil and explain why it isn't (they may or may not be wrong). Now another guy shows up and says "You lot are all geeks with no life". Do you think the club will continue to let this person show up week for week disrupting what is going on?

RE*AC*TOR

Hobbes wrote:

Well for starters it isn't true for the whole,

why does it have to be true for the whole?

Surely if its true for a significant amount, it is relevant.

ie Irish people have a drinking problem, - i'd accept that.

arbeitsscheuer

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

ie Irish people have a drinking problem, - i'd accept that.

Maybe that's why you ain't a mod, mate. You can't say stuff as sweeping as that without backing it up, and in any case you could at least word such statements in less confrontational manner, as Hobbes pointed out. i.e. "In my experience, most Irish ppl I've come across have a drinking problem" or "in my view, Irish society as a whole is unwilling to face up to its drinking problem".

B*llsh*t baffles brains, here just as much as anywhere else.

Nevyn

The islamic forum is in the Religion/spirituality cat that clearly indicates that the disscusion there is to be about Islam in those context.

Anything other then that context should be taken to humanities, politics or the conspiracy forums or even the food and drink forum if the context is sharing rescipes.