Visual Web Developer

Mal2006

Hi

I'm web hobbiest and new to ASP.net, I've been slow on the uptake due to the cost of Visual Studio but I found this Web developement IDE on http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/msdn/webdev.

Has anybody any experience with this tool? How does it compare to Visual Studio?

grahamor

i dont know what it is like but make sure it has intellisense -- the predictive code thing (i.e. when you press . inbetween variables etc. the avaiable options/methods pop up)

It improves the speed at which you can work and makes you spend less time debugging.

**Timbuk2**

Its brilliant methinks!! It comes with intellisense and everything, and finishes tags for and everything

Screenshot

democrates

Win an x-box? What diabolical subterfuge befestereth?

For graphics I use the Corel Draw suite, and if my career was in graphic design I'd probably be using adobe on a mac and doing both web and print work. I may yet change to the Gimp which is free.

My core skillset is IT, for coding I now use quanta+ for php, and mysqlcc for mysql database, on apache/linux. Standard LAMP. All free.

This microsoft thing has one prime directive, make the internet microsoft. They're begging you to use it so that any sites you develop have to be hosted on an MS-licenced box. As a new web developer it's easy to fall for the free download, with the x-box offer which is designed to appeal to your heart rather than head.

While the idea that you don't want to be a programmer or graphic designer, but want to produce websites for people who just want something 'cool' and don't need anything too aesthetic or functional sounds good at first, the truth in the market is that average programmers with some graphic design ability and average graphic designers with a bit of coding ability can easily outgun people who have no strength in either field. You're not going to compete for lucrative jobs using vwd.

Microsoft may seem to offer a middle way for people who don't want to be proficient in anything, but if it's so easy to do you'll always be up against schoolkids using free downloads...

My advice: pick a career, become good, and make real money. If that's your ambition Microsoft Visual Web Developer is simply a distraction from your future.

grahamor

democrates: he was just asking about an environment to code in asp.net, nothing else.

i dont think there was any need for your anti-microsoft rant.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote:

My core skillset is IT, for coding I now use quanta+ for php, and mysqlcc for mysql database, on apache/linux. Standard LAMP. All free.

So what? An ASP developer gets paid better than a PHP developer.

Why? For the very reasons you cited and more; a LAMP architecture is essentially free and ease of PHP as a development language for beginners means there there’s no shortage of PHP monkeys out there.

Is the platform better? Maybe, maybe not; but who cares. What I care about is I can get over €100 p.d. more developing ASP than LAMP.

You're not going to compete for lucrative jobs using vwd.

It’s an IDE, that’s all. And from your reply you’ve not actually given any reason as to why it would be a bad IDE - other than it’s by Microsoft.

Seth Brundle

The Corinthian wrote:

So what? An ASP developer gets paid better than a PHP developer.
...
What I care about is I can get over €100 p.d. more developing ASP than LAMP.

I presume you mean ASP.net rather than ASP!

The Corinthian

kbannon wrote:

I presume you mean ASP.net rather than ASP!

Either gets paid more than LAMP on average.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

So what? An ASP developer gets paid better than a PHP developer.
...
Is the platform better? Maybe, maybe not; but who cares. What I care about is I can get over €100 p.d. more developing ASP than LAMP.

As an employee I developed using MS as I had no choice. More than once solutions I proposed were postponed due to additional licence fees not being in that years budget. Add that loss to tco. Now thankfully I'm out on my own and develop whatever I see fit on LAMP to empower my customers, with no licence restrictions or costs to worry about. Happy days.

As for the disparity in contract rates for asp.net v lamp, if you're right that's another argument in favour of lamp deployment for IT managers, unless it's a temporary supply and demand effect.

The Corinthian wrote:

Why? For the very reasons you cited and more; a LAMP architecture is essentially free and ease of PHP as a development language for beginners means there there’s no shortage of PHP monkeys out there.

Yes, the lamp community is exploding, in addition to the newbies there are tons of expert developers sharing code and helping people to move up the value chain. Vbulletin you're using now is php on mysql. The zero price is working particulalry well in China and India, where developers can go from design to finished product without spending a renminbi on software licences. We've yet to see the full implications of these countries developing in numbers, but that tsunami of lamp apps is building.

The Corinthian wrote:

It’s an IDE, that’s all. And from your reply you’ve not actually given any reason as to why it would be a bad IDE - other than it’s by Microsoft.

It's an IDE with strings attached. The target platform must support it and that incurs an extra cost over LAMP alternatives. I've noticed some local hosting providers charging the same for lamp as for ms, is this another example of ms market activity that will end up in the courts?

grahamor, my arguments are not simply anti-ms, they're about why I believe lamp is the way to go. The op is new to the arena, perfect opportunity to present alternative views.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote:

As an employee I developed using MS as I had no choice. More than once solutions I proposed were postponed due to additional licence fees not being in that years budget. Add that loss to tco. Now thankfully I'm out on my own and develop whatever I see fit on LAMP to empower my customers, with no licence restrictions or costs to worry about. Happy days.

I understand entirely, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m not talking about an evangelical crusade or even looking to see which platform is better for a particular type of job - I’m talking about what a developer, who makes their living from a technology, is best of specializing in.

This means what is likely to make you the most money over the longest period of time as an individual. And TBH my money is still on old Billy Gates.

As for the disparity in contract rates for asp.net v lamp, if you're right that's another argument in favour of lamp deployment for IT managers, unless it's a temporary supply and demand effect.

Again that’s not what I'm discussing.

Yes, the lamp community is exploding, in addition to the newbies there are tons of expert developers sharing code and helping people to move up the value chain. Vbulletin you're using now is php on mysql. The zero price is working particulalry well in China and India, where developers can go from design to finished product without spending a renminbi on software licences. We've yet to see the full implications of these countries developing in numbers, but that tsunami of lamp apps is building.

So what? Be a member of the Church of LAMPology and earn less than those heathen Microserfs? Beelzebub sign me up.

The LAMP platform is an excellent platform for the development of a large number of server side applications. It’s my platform of choice on most project. But I’m not going to grow a beard and start wearing sandals because I like it.

It's an IDE with strings attached. The target platform must support it and that incurs an extra cost over LAMP alternatives. I've noticed some local hosting providers charging the same for lamp as for ms, is this another example of ms market activity that will end up in the courts?

It’s an IDE for ASP.NET that the OP wants to learn. If he wants to work with another technology he can use another IDE.

grahamor, my arguments are not simply anti-ms, they're about why I believe lamp is the way to go. The op is new to the arena, perfect opportunity to present alternative views.

Hallelujah! Praise Be!

democrates

Corinthian, your money is with Billy Gates, mine is all in Northern Rock thanks to lamp, we won't agree anytime soon.

I'm satisfied that if I compete for a contract with an ms developer, all else being equal I'm able to offer the customer a better deal. The lamp market is growing so fast I may never have to use ms or any other proprietary snare again. Yeehaw! Free at last.

That's what I'm talking about. While I recognise the 'on topic' protocol, if that frames the discussion too narrowly I see no problem in broadening it to cover points which may affect decisions not just of the op but of other readers. Hence you see things in my posts beyond what you say you are discussing.

I'm passionate about my work and beliefs and I let it flow because it just feels so good and also accelerates discourse, if that comes accross as evangelical to you so be it, I just put it down to different personality types. Amen!

The Corinthian

democrates wrote:

I'm satisfied that if I compete for a contract with an ms developer, all else being equal I'm able to offer the customer a better deal.

Actually no, because you appear to rule out certain platforms on the basis of ideology rather than technology. That seldom translates to a good deal.

The lamp market is growing so fast I may never have to use ms or any other proprietary snare again. Yeehaw! Free at last.

Or you may still have to use Microsoft or any other proprietary platform again. We only have your evangelism to say that LAMP will take over the World. Didn’t happen with Linux after all, despite all the evangelism that it was going to replace Windows on business PC’s.

The reality is that LAMP is now the most popular platform for a particular range of Web sites, not for all Web applications. Neither is it the most popular platform for desktop applications.

And these are all skill sets that are going to be handy for any developer during those periods when the economy is slow and they’re forced to try something that is not their speciality, just to pay the bills. So recommending to a developer that they should ignore a platform as prevalent as Microsoft is highly irresponsible, TBH.

I'm passionate about my work and beliefs and I let it flow because it just feels so good and also accelerates discourse, if that comes accross as evangelical to you so be it, I just put it down to different personality types. Amen!

You may be passionate about your work, but other than being irrelevant to what the OP sought, you’re basing your judgment on ideology - “LAMP Good! MS Bad!” - which is not the basis for a sound judgment in a real World business environment.

rsynnott

PHP just isn't very good, really (Nearly as unpleasant to use as ASPv3, in fact). The reason things like Apache are so dominant is that they're either better, cheaper, or both, than the competition; PHP won't become dominant (in the large application space) simply by association.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

Actually no, because you appear to rule out certain platforms on the basis of ideology rather than technology. That seldom translates to a good deal.
...
The reality is that LAMP is now the most popular platform for a particular range of Web sites, not for all Web applications. Neither is it the most popular platform for desktop applications.

That perception of ideology rather than technology informing my views is erroneous, and I note the use of the word 'appears'. I reject the ideology label, my views are based on experience.

What you call seldom is every deal I do. I've found that customers light up when I tell them there'll be no licence fees to worry about. I'm not pitching for back-end integration jobs where proprietary is required, but I don't need to, to get into that market. As I learn more about my customers needs and they continue to cosy up to lamp power and economy I'm positioning to replace their back end systems with lamp alternatives.

The Corinthian wrote:

Or you may still have to use Microsoft or any other proprietary platform again.

Hopefully the only dilution of my non-proprietary future is that I'll need to extract data from existing systems to migrate to lamp, there'll be no tears.

The Corinthian wrote:

We only have your evangelism to say that LAMP will take over the World. Didn’t happen with Linux after all, despite all the evangelism that it was going to replace Windows on business PC’s.

You must have heard of Google and Amazon. And I won't waste time by peppering zillions of links about, I fear the authors will simply be labelled as evangelists to try to reduce the validity of their points. This trend is ongoing, there's no magic date by which given market shares must happen, and I'm not suggesting lamp will take over the world and become the only choice, simply pointing to it's inexorable rise.

Linux on the desktop is a slow burner for sure. The first thing is for people to migrate to openoffice, firefox, and thunderbird. If they've no other ms-dependant apps (and the rise of web-based internal apps is steadily reducing the ms desktop requirement), the switchover can go ahead come the next os upgrade cycle. That all takes time, though it's happening faster in the emerging asian giants where they're becoming more competitive as a result.

The Corinthian wrote:

And these are all skill sets that are going to be handy for any developer during those periods when the economy is slow and they’re forced to try something that is not their speciality, just to pay the bills. So recommending to a developer that they should ignore a platform as prevalent as Microsoft is highly irresponsible, TBH.

I agree, I never recommended that people should ignore all ms platforms, merely that the vwd lock-in is a disadvantage because of ms strategy which I don't like, and lamp is great because it is without such problems. Does that mean my views are as exteme as you try to characterise?

If the sh1t ever hits the fan I'll do whatever it takes to survive, I've ms experience to fall back on. If I believed downloading vwd and learning it would get me in the door of a job I needed, I'd do it. So to put my general advice another way : at least gain a knowledge of lamp on the side so you have more choices down the line. Is that acceptable?

The Corinthian wrote:

You may be passionate about your work, but other than being irrelevant to what the OP sought, you’re basing your judgment on ideology - “LAMP Good! MS Bad!” - which is not the basis for a sound judgment in a real World business environment.

Again with the labels. Can I call your points ideology too? I was once a huge ms fan btw. If ms are so great how come I'm no longer a fan? What you call ideology is a set of views born from years of experience on both sides, including ibm mainframes and smartcards. And I'm making a profit using lamp in the real word business environment.

The OP is a web hobbyist, new to asp.net, finds visual studio too pricey, and hence is looking at vwd. To re-iterate, I think it's absolutely relevant to point out that there is an alternative platform.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote:

That perception of ideology rather than technology informing my views is erroneous, and I note the use of the word 'appears'. I reject the ideology label, my views are based on experience.

You mean anecdotal evidence. Well in that case in my experience you’re wrong and to tie yourself to one type of technology is not only bad for you own development as a professional but also poor consultancy for any client.

BTW, my use of the term ‘appears’ was simply to give you the benefit of the doubt.

What you call seldom is every deal I do. I've found that customers light up when I tell them there'll be no licence fees to worry about. I'm not pitching for back-end integration jobs where proprietary is required, but I don't need to, to get into that market. As I learn more about my customers needs and they continue to cosy up to lamp power and economy I'm positioning to replace their back end systems with lamp alternatives.

Your only consideration seems to be cost minimisation, I note. Doubtless they’ll light up with such abridged consultancy.

And TBH, the cost of a typical MS set-up is only going to frighten businesses that don’t want to spend money in the first place.

You must have heard of Google and Amazon. And I won't waste time by peppering zillions of links about, I fear the authors will simply be labelled as evangelists to try to reduce the validity of their points. This trend is ongoing, there's no magic date by which given market shares must happen, and I'm not suggesting lamp will take over the world and become the only choice, simply pointing to it's inexorable rise.

And you’ll have heard of Paypal or Hotmail - my point being that there are various different technologies out there (not just Microsoft) that can be used for a project. You should choose which based upon what is best for that project and not on some open-sandaled principle as you do (note that I am no longer giving you the earlier benefit of the doubt).

Linux on the desktop is a slow burner for sure. The first thing is for people to migrate to openoffice, firefox, and thunderbird. If they've no other ms-dependant apps (and the rise of web-based internal apps is steadily reducing the ms desktop requirement), the switchover can go ahead come the next os upgrade cycle. That all takes time, though it's happening faster in the emerging asian giants where they're becoming more competitive as a result.

Roffle. The emerging Asian giants are more competitive because they work for less than 10% of what we do.

As for the slow burner, in the last 18 months the move to Linux has actually begun to reverse. Businesses are just not willing to move to Linux on the off chance that it’ll be stable in 5 years - especially given Linux admins cost more than Windows admins.

I agree, I never recommended that people should ignore all ms platforms, merely that the vwd lock-in is a disadvantage because of ms strategy which I don't like, and lamp is great because it is without such problems. Does that mean my views are as exteme as you try to characterise?

I would categorise them as unprofessional as they place a pseudo-ideological ideal over the interests of your clients.

If the sh1t ever hits the fan I'll do whatever it takes to survive, I've ms experience to fall back on. If I believed downloading vwd and learning it would get me in the door of a job I needed, I'd do it. So to put my general advice another way : at least gain a knowledge of lamp on the side so you have more choices down the line. Is that acceptable?

Then why are you advising someone to ignore the very option you are willing to take yourself? How irresponsible are you?

Again with the labels. Can I call your points ideology too? I was once a huge ms fan btw. If ms are so great how come I'm no longer a fan? What you call ideology is a set of views born from years of experience on both sides, including ibm mainframes and smartcards.

I’m neither pro or against MS, or LAMP or Java or whatever. My only ideology is to seek the marriage of profit and professionalism towards clients and/or employers. To that end I have no preference for a project outside of what is best for that project.

Oddly that also comes from numerous years experience.

And I'm making a profit using lamp in the real word business environment.

And no doubt there are people out there making a profit out of REBOL too, but it isn’t going to take over the World.

The OP is a web hobbyist, new to asp.net, finds visual studio too pricey, and hence is looking at vwd. To re-iterate, I think it's absolutely relevant to point out that there is an alternative platform.

No, it was irrelevant. He/she’s a hobbyist, but that does not mean he’s clueless about other technologies. There’s actually no reason to believe that he/she has not already got experience in LAMP. He/she actually asked a very straightforward question and not only did you go off topic and tell him/her to use another technology but went so far as to tell him/her not to use the one he/she wanted to know about in the first place.

mewso

I have to agree with rsynnott here. If I was to walk into a company and they said they had Microsoft servers and linux servers, wanted an enterprise level web application developed as quickly as possible that can handle large scale loads I'm running so fast towards .net you won't be able to keep up.
The VWD thing imo is aimed at the hobbyists who if they check it out will discover that they can develop great websites faster than they would with php and can now get the site hosted, if they shop around, for a similar price to a LAMP hosting package. It's worth checking out.
To answer the OP VWD is an excellent IDE and well worth using. I use it at the moment to develop apps for our company. We'll be buying the full Studio soon but the difference is not huge. It just adds some extra features for project development like class builders etc. If you are a hobbyist then you will find VWD and ASP.NET is a fantastic platform to develop with and I highly recommend it. Check out masterpages, one of my favorite features in the new version of .Net.
It would be nice if some PHP evangelists would actually try VWD before writing it off.

rsynnott

musician wrote:

I have to agree with rsynnott here. If I was to walk into a company and they said they had Microsoft servers and linux servers, wanted an enterprise level web application developed as quickly as possible that can handle large scale loads I'm running so fast towards .net you won't be able to keep up.

Actually, I'd tend towards LISP, myself, but that's 'cause I'm a filthy deviant. More conventionally, I also quite like Java with Struts or similar.

dahamsta

rsynnott wrote:

I also quite like Java with Struts or similar.

Filthy deviant.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

You mean anecdotal evidence. Well in that case in my experience you’re wrong and to tie yourself to one type of technology is not only bad for you own development as a professional but also poor consultancy for any client.

BTW, my use of the term ‘appears’ was simply to give you the benefit of the doubt.

My experience is anecdotal but your experience is, experience? Sounds like double-standards to me. I said experience, I meant experience.

I'm not tied to any one technology, but for the technologies I use, I now choose open source rather than proprietary, note the distinction. And this has allowed me to accelerate my IT development capabilities to develop more professional systems.

I don't do poor consultancy, I've told a few prospects already that I'm not their man, as they wanted or needed ms based on the spec presented. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, merely offering what I know is right for certain jobs. Is that allowed in the mind of the corinthian? Will you tolerate anyone specialising in lamp development?

The Corinthian wrote:

Your only consideration seems to be cost minimisation, I note. Doubtless they’ll light up with such abridged consultancy.

"lamp power and economy" I said, note the p-word, my consultancy is not abridged at all. And I've already told you the positive customer reactions I've had to what I've given them. Your postulation can't change the past, or have you got ms time-machine '98 there?

The Corinthian wrote:

And TBH, the cost of a typical MS set-up is only going to frighten businesses that don’t want to spend money in the first place.

I don't know anyone who won't avoid costs if they can.

The Corinthian wrote:

And you’ll have heard of Paypal or Hotmail - my point being that there are various different technologies out there (not just Microsoft) that can be used for a project. You should choose which based upon what is best for that project and not on some open-sandaled principle as you do (note that I am no longer giving you the earlier benefit of the doubt).

Hotmail is an ms operation and originally ran apache on FreeBSD. Again, you seem to be confusing suppliers with technologies. I already pointed out that I pick my projects based on them being ideal for lamp power and economy. Btw I own no sandals but I've a pair of steel toe-capped boots as you're so interested, have you a foot fetish or is that just another smearing/distraction tactic?

The Corinthian wrote:

Roffle. The emerging Asian giants are more competitive because they work for less than 10% of what we do.

Wrong. Not quite that cheap. And pay rates are not the only factor in their competitiveness. Ruffle.

The Corinthian wrote:

As for the slow burner, in the last 18 months the move to Linux has actually begun to reverse. Businesses are just not willing to move to Linux on the off chance that it’ll be stable in 5 years - especially given Linux admins cost more than Windows admins.

Linux has long been renowned for it's superior stability and security despite the misinformation drive. And check out the netcraft survey for a nice graph of os deployment accross the net. You might want to look at those to better inform your consultancy efforts.;) Also you raise a good tip for newbies, you can make more money as a Linux admin than a Windows admin, though as with lamp/asp.net differentials, supply and demand effects tend to right themselves over time.

The Corinthian wrote:

I would categorise them as unprofessional as they place a pseudo-ideological ideal over the interests of your clients.

Personally I place my own interests first. And if a person prefers open source to proprietary or visa versa they are unable to offer anyone a professional service, is that your view? See my point above about picking clients based on suitability.

The Corinthian wrote:

Then why are you advising someone to ignore the very option you are willing to take yourself? How irresponsible are you?

Not a bit. I only cited personal willingness to use it if absolutely necessary. I have no delusions that anyone in such a situation would take my general career advice as a universal law and turn down a job. Life simply isn't that black and white.

VWD is aimed at hobbyists etc, and I think if someone wants to be a graphic design or IT professional it does not present the shortest route to a lucrative career, even if they choose an ms career. I think that's very responsible advice, I'm not going to put 'in general' at the end of every sentence, I credit readers with cop on. Besides I also added later "at least gain a knowledge of lamp on the side so you have more choices down the line".

The Corinthian wrote:

I’m neither pro or against MS, or LAMP or Java or whatever. My only ideology is to seek the marriage of profit and professionalism towards clients and/or employers. To that end I have no preference for a project outside of what is best for that project.

I do that too. And now I pick projects that are lamp candidates, not everyone has that luxury in fairness, hence I'm not arguing that everyone become self-employed and use only lamp, just sharing my joyous experience, people can take it or leave it.

The Corinthian wrote:

And no doubt there are people out there making a profit out of REBOL too, but it isn’t going to take over the World.

Agreed, though there's no equivalence in prevalence or growth trends between the two. And again, I never said lamp would or even should take over the world, because I'm not an extremist, I believe in choice, live and let live. That incudes the freedom to express my views on why I personally choose lamp over proprietary.

The Corinthian wrote:

No, it was irrelevant. He/she’s a hobbyist, but that does not mean he’s clueless about other technologies. There’s actually no reason to believe that he/she has not already got experience in LAMP. He/she actually asked a very straightforward question and not only did you go off topic and tell him/her to use another technology but went so far as to tell him/her not to use the one he/she wanted to know about in the first place.

Just as I haven't assumed the op or other readers have no lamp experience, neither can one assume all do. I won't apologise for telling a person newly looking at web development technology from a particular vendor, who is concerned about price, that there is a free alternative choice of that technology available which does not require asp.net2 hosting. You cannot conclude it's irrelevant unless you assume the op and all other readers are dead set on ms.

I suspect you're just trolling for a lark based on the copious personal jibes, nonetheless the points made may provide some food for thought for other readers.

The Corinthian

democrates wrote:

My experience is anecdotal but your experience is, experience? Sounds like double-standards to me. I said experience, I meant experience.

What it is is exactly what I said; experience is often little more than anecdotal evidence dressed up to look more important, but if you want to play the experience game, so can I.

I'm not tied to any one technology, but for the technologies I use, I now choose open source rather than proprietary, note the distinction.

Yes, it’s an oxymoron.

And this has allowed me to accelerate my IT development capabilities to develop more professional systems.

What marketing bunny taught you that meaningless piece of claptrap?

I don't do poor consultancy, I've told a few prospects already that I'm not their man, as they wanted or needed ms based on the spec presented. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, merely offering what I know is right for certain jobs. Is that allowed in the mind of the corinthian? Will you tolerate anyone specialising in lamp development?

I’ve no problem with a specialisation, but I do consider someone who on a matter of ideological principle rule out a technology - and advise his or her clients accordingly - to be unprofessional.

"lamp power and economy" I said, note the p-word, my consultancy is not abridged at all. And I've already told you the positive customer reactions I've had to what I've given them. Your postulation can't change the past, or have you got ms time-machine '98 there?

What’s your point? That a LAMP stack can be the best solution in a project? No argument there. That your clients are happy? Sure, why not - ignorance is bliss.

But do your clients know that you will recommend to them a LAMP solution, not because it is the best solution, but because you will not entertain others? How happy would they be then?

And the reality is that sometimes a LAMP solution is not the best one for a client, sometimes a Java or (dare I say it?) Microsoft solution will make more sense.

But that’s simply not on your abridged menu. And that’s unprofessional.

I don't know anyone who won't avoid costs if they can.

You know a lot of dumb people. Why don’t you host your clients on Tripod and save them some more money then?

Hotmail is an ms operation and originally ran apache on FreeBSD. Again, you seem to be confusing suppliers with technologies.

No I’m not - I’m citing what it’s running on now. Would you like me to point out that Amazon didn’t always run the same technology? Same logic as you, but equally pointless.

Wrong. Not quite that cheap.

Did you actually read that page? Irish rates are slightly less than UK ones (London/SE England pushes the UK figure up, otherwise you’ll find that cities such as Edinburgh, Manchester or Birmingham are much the same as here). Based upon this, Asian pay (according to your link) peak at 7% of UK pay, so my figure of 10% is not wrong at all.

And pay rates are not the only factor in their competitiveness. Ruffle.

What’s that puff piece supposed to prove? Seriously.

Linux has long been renowned for it's superior stability and security despite the misinformation drive.

I never said that Linux is less secure (although it’s not all you’re making it out to be), only that businesses are not migrating from Widows to Linux because it, and it’s software, is just not a commercially viable option for them.

And check out the netcraft survey for a nice graph of os deployment accross the net.

What have Web server stats got to do with desktop OS adoption?

You might want to look at those to better inform your consultancy efforts.;) Also you raise a good tip for newbies, you can make more money as a Linux admin than a Windows admin, though as with lamp/asp.net differentials, supply and demand effects tend to right themselves over time.

No they don’t because the real world is not as simple as that. Where did you study Economics?

Certainly if one is pursuing a career as a system admin I would strongly recommend getting to grips with Linux administration over Windows. Better still, Solaris or HP-UX too. But we’re discussing developers, not system admins.

Personally I place my own interests first. And if a person prefers open source to proprietary or visa versa they are unable to offer anyone a professional service, is that your view? See my point above about picking clients based on suitability.

Except you’ve already stated that you don’t believe that Microsoft is a better solution in any case. Even those clients you lost on the basis that they went the Microsoft route, you almost certainly tried to convince them to go with a LAMP solution - because it is your only solution.

And yes, I do consider that unprofessional.

Not a bit. I only cited personal willingness to use it if absolutely necessary. I have no delusions that anyone in such a situation would take my general career advice as a universal law and turn down a job. Life simply isn't that black and white.

But that’s not what you said to the original poster. You didn’t say that he / she should learn how to develop for the Microsoft platform so that they could fall back on it if necessary, you suggested that they ignore it.

You even went so far as to suggest that “Microsoft may seem to offer a middle way for people who don't want to be proficient in anything, but if it's so easy to do you'll always be up against schoolkids using free downloads...” - which coming from someone promoting open source software is frankly laughable.

I do that too. And now I pick projects that are lamp candidates, not everyone has that luxury in fairness, hence I'm not arguing that everyone become self-employed and use only lamp, just sharing my joyous experience, people can take it or leave it.

You don’t, you’re an evangelist, and so you pick projects on the basis that you can convert them, not that it is the best solution for their requirements. I’ve heard born-again Christians use similar logic.

Agreed, though there's no equivalence in prevalence or growth trends between the two.

Yet a few years ago I was reading articles and community discussions that were convinced that REBOL was going to take over the World. So don’t be so convinced that you’re any more right.

And again, I never said lamp would or even should take over the world, because I'm not an extremist, I believe in choice, live and let live. That incudes the freedom to express my views on why I personally choose lamp over proprietary.

You don’t really believe all that much in choice because you only give your clients one. They’re relying on you to give them a professional and unbiased opinion, and you’re not. They’re trusting you - the expert - to give them all the available options, but you’re only giving them those options that suit your ideological World View.

It is unprofessional and, frankly, unethical.

Just as I haven't assumed the op or other readers have no lamp experience, neither can one assume all do. I won't apologise for telling a person newly looking at web development technology from a particular vendor, who is concerned about price, that there is a free alternative choice of that technology available which does not require asp.net2 hosting. You cannot conclude it's irrelevant unless you assume the op and all other readers are dead set on ms.

I can conclude that it’s irrelevant based upon the fact that it has no bearing on what he / she asked.

I suspect you're just trolling for a lark based on the copious personal jibes, nonetheless the points made may provide some food for thought for other readers.

Assume what makes you happy. You appear adept at that.

rsynnott

The Corinthian wrote:

No I’m not - I’m citing what it’s running on now. Would you like me to point out that Amazon didn’t always run the same technology? Same logic as you, but equally pointless.

Did they ever finish their conversion, then? I know they changed the frontend webservers from FreeBSD/FastCGI-Perl to FreeBSD/FastCGI-C and then to an ISAPI module, but at that time they certainly retained the Solaris datastores and mail servers. (IIRC, MSN IM is still on Solaris as well). I'd have expected some fanfare if they'd changed those over, as that was considered to be a far greater difficulty than the BSD->WinNT change.

It is unprofessional and, frankly, unethical.

I'd agree, although in practice it is quite common for developers to recommend a platform entirely because they're comfortable with it.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

What it is is exactly what I said; experience is often little more than anecdotal evidence dressed up to look more important, but if you want to play the experience game, so can I.

Of course you can cite your own experience, but to classify mine alone as anecdotal evidence is double standards.

The Corinthian wrote:

Yes, it’s an oxymoron.

Referring to different offerings of a technology as different technologies, is not an oxymoron, it's cloudy thinking.

The Corinthian wrote:

What marketing bunny taught you that meaningless piece of claptrap?

Another wrong assumption, I was not taught my view by a marketing bunny. The acceleration in my learning since I adopted lamp is what I've experienced. Have you ms crystal ball there that you believe you have the evidence to rebut this assertion? It stands.

The Corinthian wrote:

I’ve no problem with a specialisation, but I do consider someone who on a matter of ideological principle rule out a technology - and advise his or her clients accordingly - to be unprofessional.

You're back to the wrong assumption of an idealogical principle again. How many times do I need to tell you that I'm not forcing anything on anyone that doesn't meet their needs?

The Corinthian wrote:

What’s your point? That a LAMP stack can be the best solution in a project? No argument there. That your clients are happy? Sure, why not - ignorance is bliss.

You recognise that lamp can be the best solution for a project, and follow up with an assumption that my customers using it are ignorant. That is staggering.

The Corinthian wrote:

But do your clients know that you will recommend to them a LAMP solution, not because it is the best solution, but because you will not entertain others? How happy would they be then?

I do not recommend lamp unless I believe it's the best solution, you keep making that wrong assumption, and if my business name were public here I'd be suing you for libel. I've already told you that I have walked away from jobs where lamp was not the best fit. My customers are made well aware up front that I specialise in lamp.

The Corinthian wrote:

And the reality is that sometimes a LAMP solution is not the best one for a client, sometimes a Java or (dare I say it?) Microsoft solution will make more sense.

But that’s simply not on your abridged menu. And that’s unprofessional.

So on the one hand you've no problem with someone specialising in lamp, then on the other you say it's unproffessional? That's an inconsistant position.

The Corinthian wrote:

You know a lot of dumb people. Why don’t you host your clients on Tripod and save them some more money then?

Another insult, the last refuge of a failed argument. Cost/benefit analysis is used to decide on expenditure, and my proposals for lamp apt projects have been successful. Extreme measures are only entertained in extreme situations.

The Corinthian wrote:

No I’m not - I’m citing what it’s running on now. Would you like me to point out that Amazon didn’t always run the same technology? Same logic as you, but equally pointless.

That came from your earlier point "We only have your evangelism to say that LAMP will take over the World. Didn’t happen with Linux after all, despite all the evangelism that it was going to replace Windows on business PC’s.", and was just to demonstrate that the truth is in the middle, lamp is neither taking over the world, nor is it nowhere to be seen. It's there in a big way. Strange how that assertion stimulates ire in some people.

The Corinthian wrote:

Did you actually read that page? Irish rates are slightly less than UK ones (London/SE England pushes the UK figure up, otherwise you’ll find that cities such as Edinburgh, Manchester or Birmingham are much the same as here). Based upon this, Asian pay (according to your link) peak at 7% of UK pay, so my figure of 10% is not wrong at all.

I'll give you that one. I'm good like that. Regardless of the exact figure, pay isn't the only competitive advantage possible, and I believe their lamp strategies will make them more competitive.

The Corinthian wrote:

What’s that puff piece supposed to prove? Seriously.

It contains the facts that China and India are rolling out Linux in a big way, and thereby lamp, and the goal they have in common is to reduce the cost of software and thereby increase competitiveness. maybe you think their strategy is a mistake?

The Corinthian wrote:

I never said that Linux is less secure (although it’s not all you’re making it out to be), only that businesses are not migrating from Widows to Linux because it, and it’s software, is just not a commercially viable option for them.

Refreshingly moderate. Of course I'm assuming you don't refer to all businesses, because that would be extreme and wrong. And I'm not taking any extreme view on security, so "all you're making it out to be" is overstating my position.

The Corinthian wrote:

What have Web server stats got to do with desktop OS adoption?

Nothing. It's obviously a seperate point. But one I like to make when discussing the future of lamp.

The Corinthian wrote:

No they don’t because the real world is not as simple as that. Where did you study Economics?

We're talking about the labour market. Excepting artificial barriers to entry supply increases to meet demand due to higher salaries. During y2k there were elecrical engineers doing cobol. In specialised areas the famine can last quite a while, but ultimately the flow of graduates will come. And the Institute of Public Administration. Are you going to have a go at them now?

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

Certainly if one is pursuing a career as a system admin I would strongly recommend getting to grips with Linux administration over Windows. Better still, Solaris or HP-UX too. But we’re discussing developers, not system admins.

I concur.

The Corinthian wrote:

Except you’ve already stated that you don’t believe that Microsoft is a better solution in any case. Even those clients you lost on the basis that they went the Microsoft route, you almost certainly tried to convince them to go with a LAMP solution - because it is your only solution.

I did not state such an extreme opinion about ms solutions. I haven't lost any customers, but some prospects were not suitable to become customers. And yet AGAIN I have to reiterate, I have never tried to force anything on anyone that wasn't suited to their needs. You keep trying to characterise me as an extremist so you can attack that. That tactic is disingenuous as well as futile.

The Corinthian wrote:

And yes, I do consider that unprofessional.

As an answer to my point "And if a person prefers open source to proprietary or visa versa they are unable to offer anyone a professional service, is that your view?".
So you believe everyone in IT must use proprietary software or they're not a professional. That is extreme. Forgive me if I don't follow your rules, and instead exercise my freedom as an IT professional to specialise as I see fit.

The Corinthian wrote:

But that’s not what you said to the original poster. You didn’t say that he / she should learn how to develop for the Microsoft platform so that they could fall back on it if necessary, you suggested that they ignore it.

You even went so far as to suggest that “Microsoft may seem to offer a middle way for people who don't want to be proficient in anything, but if it's so easy to do you'll always be up against schoolkids using free downloads...” - which coming from someone promoting open source software is frankly laughable.

I was referring to vwd, and I stand by that. As I stated, if the persons goal is to go for lucrative jobs vwd is not the shortest route. My original post was a brief opinion not a comprehensive thesis on software and careers. "Oh you didn't point out x". This is a discussion board, not an academic journal, get over it.

The Corinthian wrote:

You don’t, you’re an evangelist, and so you pick projects on the basis that you can convert them, not that it is the best solution for their requirements. I’ve heard born-again Christians use similar logic.

I'm not an evangelist. Again you're trying to characterise me as an extremist so you can attack that. So yet AGAIN!!! let me spell it out for you, I have never tried to force anything on anyone that wasn't suited to their needs. Only my customers and I know the facts of our discussions, how is it that the corinthian can say things went differently? Are you point blank calling me a liar?

The Corinthian wrote:

Yet a few years ago I was reading articles and community discussions that were convinced that REBOL was going to take over the World. So don’t be so convinced that you’re any more right.

And on the other side of the fence MS didn't think the internet would be relevant, hence Morgan Stanley beat them to www.ms.com. Seen all the wide-eyed idealists and blinkered naysayers before myself, the rebol straw-man is irrelevant. I've ultimately an open mind, that said, when you see the governments of China and India with their 2.3 Billion populations implementing major open source implementation strategies, it has a more than zero effect on expectations.

The Corinthian wrote:

You don’t really believe all that much in choice because you only give your clients one. They’re relying on you to give them a professional and unbiased opinion, and you’re not. They’re trusting you - the expert - to give them all the available options, but you’re only giving them those options that suit your ideological World View .

It is unprofessional and, frankly, unethical.

I'm a lamp specialist, I advise my customers whether or not I can meet their needs, that's as far as my professional opinion goes. As I said before, I've already told a few customers they need ms so I'm not their man. They selected another vendor, I've no monopoly in the market. Hence I'm not subtracting from the customers ability to choose one bit, rather, when I arrive in the door I may well be able to offer them a choice they didn't have before.

Now. Either you can tolerate specialisation or you can't, I'm not pitching for consultancy on every available solution, so don't try and extend my brief beyond what it is in order to attack what it's not. Are you suggesting that a development house that specialises in ms is unprofessional too? Would you accuse them of proceeding only from an ideological world view just because they specialise?

The Corinthian wrote:

I can conclude that it’s irrelevant based upon the fact that it has no bearing on what he / she asked.

It has a bearing as I've amply explained. What part of it don't you agree with?

The Corinthian wrote:

Assume what makes you happy. You appear adept at that.

Only on that last point and I stated it was a suspicion. You however have repeatedly assumed incorrect things about me here and then criticised your own erroneous concoctions.

rsynnott

democrates wrote:

I do not recommend lamp unless I believe it's the best solution, you keep making that wrong assumption, and if my business name were public here I'd be suing you for libel. I've already told you that I have walked away from jobs where lamp was not the best fit. My customers are made well aware up front that I specialise in lamp.

So you'll only undertake projects where LAMP is the best fit? While obviously there's nothing wrong with this, that degree of specialisation seems to me to be extreme.

Actually, specifically LAMP? Would you consider using other things (specifically, would you consider learning PHP alternatives?)

dahamsta

What's wrong with choosing to only undertake projects where LAMP is the best fit? <confused>

(Also, the P in LAMP tends to stand for one of PHP, Perl or Python these days.)

democrates

rsynnott wrote:

So you'll only undertake projects where LAMP is the best fit? While obviously there's nothing wrong with this, that degree of specialisation seems to me to be extreme.

Actually, specifically LAMP? Would you consider using other things (specifically, would you consider learning PHP alternatives?)

What ken shabby said.
I already know perl, and use it hither and yon. When a stable perl6 is released I'll give it a test drive and see if it's tempting enough to adopt as my prime language. Java is in the wings but a long shot at this point.

I've also used postgresql but have yet to find a practical justification for using it over mysql in any project.

Apache looks fairly ensconced.

Linux can always be switched for freebsd if necessary, or heaven forbid if we ever see the hurd (have you heard the word?) ready for primetime that can be assessed, but I won't hold my breath.
So for the foreseeable it's lamp as we know it, and lamp is likely to evolve into a broader set.

mewso

Get ye hence to the thunderdome, start a new thread, whatever.

Mal2006 wrote:

Has anybody any experience with this tool?

Yes.

Mal2006 wrote:

How does it compare to Visual Studio?

Very well considering it is free.

The Corinthian

This discussion, other than being wildly off topic, is frankly going down the road of obfuscation by democrates as he begins to move the goalposts and do things such as refer to statistics about Linux servers when discussing workstations. I’ve no interest in wasting that my time and this.

However at the core of this discussion is this claim:

democrates wrote:

As I said before, I've already told a few customers they need ms so I'm not their man.

Where has democrats said this before? Maybe I’m missing it (I’m sure it’s possible) but I don’t see where he’s said this here and so I’d have to question this because from everything else he has said in this thread I world severely doubt that he would ever do so.

If he does, then fair enough, but I wouldn’t say so from reading him here.

democrates

The Corinthian wrote:

This discussion, other than being wildly off topic, is frankly going down the road of obfuscation by democrates as he begins to move the goalposts and do things such as refer to statistics about Linux servers when discussing workstations. I’ve no interest in wasting that my time and this.

However at the core of this discussion is this claim:

Where has democrats said this before? Maybe I’m missing it (I’m sure it’s possible) but I don’t see where he’s said this here and so I’d have to question this because from everything else he has said in this thread I world severely doubt that he would ever do so.

If he does, then fair enough, but I wouldn’t say so from reading him here.

See post 19 - "I've told a few prospects already that I'm not their man, as they wanted or needed ms based on the spec presented."

Have faith, I know there are a lot of unscrupulous business-people out there but I'm not one of them. I can't remain silent when I'm perceived and portrayed as the opposite of what I am, it's particularly galling given the services I provide to non-profits at well below market rates.