Masters Killing Athletics

thirtyfoot

It was raised in the Derval O' Rourke victory thread, so instead of hijacking that thread, I've started a new one. The reasons I think athletics is being killed by Masters is as follows:

1 - If 20/30 years ago, Jim Kilty or John Sheehan or any coach around the country decided they wanted to be vets and win loads of food blenders and tee shirts instead of being coaches there would be no DOR, or James Nolan, no TJ Kearns, no Gary Ryan. There are not enough coaches in this country, not enough people promoting the sport, going into schools recruiting kids. If Brid Hallissey decided she wanted to be a vet instead of turning Ferrybank into a stronghold of juvenile athletics in a matter of years, the whole raft of talented kids coming out of there would be lost. Similar examples exist all around the country.
2 - There are now so many categories, a lot of the traditionally very competitive grades on road and country like novice and intermediate are being devalued.
3 - Because other sports such as GAA, Soccer, Rugby don't have a veteran culture, if you love the sport and you hit 40 and still want to be involved which many people do, you have the following options 1-Become a coach or administrator 2 - Become a supporter or fan. Could you imagine the 4,000 from Ballycotton packing Santry to the rafters to see a Nolan vs Turnbull 1500m battle or roaring on McKee, McCarthy, Daly and Gillick to sub 45 400m

Its a matter of numbers, we have less officials, less administrators, less coaches, less promoters meaning less chance of finding quality people in those categories which in turn means we have less athletes being recruited or coached properly, which in turn means we have less chance of finding the next Derval O' Rourke. I know many vets are coaches too and they are legends being able to balance their time like that, but we could get so much more if some of the vets put their time and resources into developing the sport.

Common Sense

Tingle, you raise some very interesting and valid points. I'm a (level 3) coach and administrator in the sport. I've never been a 'vet' - my athletic career ended in my 20s. However, people who participate as 'vets' are exercising a personal choice and they are entitled to the freedom to do this. But, I agree with you we could do with a lot more coaches and administrators - particularly for the promotion and development of athletics.

DaveH

Tinge,
You raise some interesting points but current coaches
Brian Corcoran, Dick Hooper, Gerry Kiernan, Paddy Fay, Jim McNamara all had their success as senior athletes. Why should they not be allowed compete as Vets?
The road running athletes who compete in Ballycotton in the majority have only discovered the sport in later life. Why should able body people as Nick Corish an 81 year old man be stopped from competing in athletics.
Soccer and GAA are very different sports. There is no veterans catergory however they can be found in the lower junior leagues of these sports, plenty of ex League of Ireland soccer players would be found in the phoenix park on sunday mornings. If people have an interest in the sport then why shouldnt they be allowed par-take. Can you tell me how a 50 year man/woman who had no interest in the sport until deciding to run the marathon can give good solid coaching advice or take a top position at a club like secretary or PRO????
I do agree that all vets(masters) should be over 40 in both men and womens.

With regard to intermediate and novice status. No one has answered my previous post that at the national intermediate in CORK!!!! Not one team entered from Munster!! Ulster or Connaught. 6 teams entered
DSD, Raheny, Sportsworld, Rathfarnham, North Laois and Sli Chulain(spelling). Do Leevale, East Cork, Youghall, West Waterford, Limerick not have four intermediate athletes? It was said to me that the introduction of the National Novice has taken from the intermediate. I must also question the inter countie championship in these races. Why should the 6th scorer on a county team be disqualified from a grade for 10 years when they have finished outside the tpo 60? Inter club race is very different and club's go to championship C\C intent on winning medals. I know for a fact that two members of the dublin team did not know until after the race they were even on the dublin team.

ChickenTikka

While I agree that there are not enough coaches, administrators etc involved at grass roots in the sport, I don't think its fair to blame masters athletes for this.

Why do people run in road races? I would expect for most if not all, because they are having fun doing this and enjoy the health benefits.

So why knock it?

Of the 1000s in the Ballycotton race, about half were masters. The other half were seniors - still doing it because its fun.

Are adults who get fit and participate in events like this less likely or more likely to get involved in coaching juvenile athletes? In my opinion, the answer is more likely.

If kids see their parents participating in events like this, are they more likely or less likely to take up the sport? More likely in my opinion.

So onto coaching ... why does someone get involved in coaching juvenile athletes. My opinion is that in the vast majority of cases, its because their own kids got involved initially and then they developed a love of the sport and stuck with it after their kids grew up. Its hard to expect many of the masters runners, alot of whom maybe just took up the sport in their older ages, to get stuck into juvenile coaching if they have no direct involvement with it already.

It would be great if more people were interested in coaching juvenile athletes - but how to you make this happen?

Sports like soccer and GAA have the advantage of 100,000s of people who participated in their youth and developed/retained an interest and took up coaching. If it was possible to break it down by percentages, maybe you'd find that there is a much greater % of former athletes involved in coaching than for sports like GAA. Don't know the answer - just throwing this out there.

Bottom line - I don't think its fair to say that master athletes have any responsibility whatsoever for "killing athletics". The opposite is true if anything.

Domer

I largely agree with what has been said on previous posts....however...

Most running clubs and coaches, in the greater Dublin area anyway, find it difficult to run in the evening during the winter due to a number of factors, not least being personal safety. It is not safe to send a bunch of 15-17year old kids off on a distance run on a dark winters evening. Usually what happens is that a master/vet in the club will be also involved in the coaching and accompany the kids on their run to ensure they stay safe and out of trouble. That same runner while providing a valuable service to athletics, is also doing their daily run. Coaches sometimes need to be runners too!!

My point is..... being a master and running in events such as the Ballycotton 10 does not mean you cannot be actively involved in a running club and coaching kids. Both things need not be mutually exclusive.

Clum

Although we get large turnouts to events like the Ballycotton 10 it doesn't reflect accurately the number of people interested in running, or athletics, as a competitive sport.

Running is largely used as a way to keep fit and taking part in events like Ballycotton adds some excitment or novelty to what's generally seen as a 'boring' way of keep fit.

Take the Bupa 10K coming up in 3 or 4 weeks. Of the 5000 or so participants a handful will be competing to win something. Only a slightly larger number will actually know the names of the elite athletes (the majority wont know who 3 times winner Craig Mottram is, even if he wins next week in the commonwealth games). Most entrants will be running for the atmosphere, and of course to prove to themselves that they are fit (or not!).

This large number of participants can't be transferred to the stands in Morton Stadium, or even the tv to watch competitive races, because many participants aren't interested in it as a competitive sport. It's seen largely as a way of keeping fit.

With the Vet and Masters categories it gives those who do see athletics as a competitive sport a greater reason to take part, and hopefully a reason to get involved in training the youngsters and helping to organise further events.

Vets and Masters competing in athletics is far from the reason there's few world class coaches in this country. Blame the lack of interest or awareness in the sport, or the lack of funding, but certainly don't blame the participants.

And please don't take that as an arguement against our media for not showing enough interest or giving the sport enough coverage. On another thread RTE are being ripped apart. AAI are the main athletics body here and their own central domain of coverage of the sport, athleticsireland.ie, is poor at best at giving the sport any suitable advertising or coverage. Veterans running their best and the media are certainly not to blame.

aburke

The reply from Clum hit the nail on the head.

Many of the 4000 people [but not all!] in Ballycotton are the running equivalent of the people
who would only ever go to the All-Ireland in GAA but don't even know what age a minor player has to be,
or to a soccer International or Premiership match but never to a League Of Ireland match.

They would have relatively little interest in Athletics on a national/International level and just run for fun and to keep fit.

I should know, I am one of them [more or less]
I never ran at school, or Uni because I had no interest in running. I run now for fun and to keep fit.
But I did join my local Athletic club, and even competed at National Novice and Senior Cross country [that one was a bad idea.. Check who finished 2nd last in Santry a few weeks ago..]

Sadly the Ballycotton 10 / Bupa 10km doesn't reflect the interest in Athletics at an international level.

But that isn't a bad thing necessarily. There is a trickle down effect. The more people who run for fun, the more there is who might get interested in the idea of coaching youngsters.

But one thing is certain.
People like myself, 'fun runners' for want of a better word, are a part of Irish athletics too. Not everybody is world class.
I consider myself the Athletic equivalent of Junior C hurlers - we all have our place.
Some of us run just for fun - How about that?

Alan

aoa321

aburke wrote:

But one thing is certain.
People like myself, 'fun runners' for want of a better word, are a part of Irish athletics too. Not everybody is world class.
I consider myself the Athletic equivalent of Junior C hurlers - we all have our place.
Some of us run just for fun - How about that?

good point, great thread, loads of interesting points are being made.

I think you could look at this from another angle, why are so many older participants trying athletics? I think it's because road running is so accessible, there is no other sport I can think of where a complete novice can come along, be made feel welcome and as long as they do thier best they get the winning feeling. I run in the winter league in Waterford, where middle-aged friends of mine who have never run before compete against some very accomplished athletes

So why not try to somehow leverage this positively to get more younsters into the sport? In athletics the only person you are really competing against is yourself.

I am a big fan of participation sport, the more the merrier, the more accessible the better. I think there is too much emphasis on winning and especially on losing in grass-level sports. Look at the state of sport at the highest level, corrupted and bastardised by money and drugs, give me the Ballycotton 10 anyday - we should cherish the mass participation, try to understand exactly why it is happening and use it promote athletics to youngsters.

Older athletes and coaches lived in a different world, where children competed because thier friends competed. Even though some of us were crap I can never remember anybody being referred to as a "loser", I hate that word and will not allow my children use it.

These days I think that children compete only to win and if they are not winning on the field, a lot of them just give up, go home, and win on the Playstation. There's a possibility that the masters are not kiling athletics but keeping it alive.

OnwrdThruTheFog

Excellent thread folks with a lot of intelligent viewpoints.

While I can see the logic in Tingle's initial point I would have to argue that, on balance, the inclination of many of our more mature athletes to continue to compete is very much a positive. It's a little simplistic to suggest that training/racing & coaching/administration are mutually exclusive activities.

My own club presents a case in point for many of the arguments discussed above. Only a few years ago it was strictly a juvenile club with a few hardy souls, in all cases parents of talented juveniles who remained in the sport after their kids departed, keeping the show going. More recently the club has established a vibrant and successful adult section driven by latecomers to the sport who fell in love with it. All those active at committee level are also active participants and are achieving great success in both fields. If these guys had'nt been drawn to the sport in their 20's, 30's & 40's we would have no senior club now.

What has this got to do with bringing talented kids through? Quite a lot really. Ireland has a dispersed rural population - the geographical spread at juvenile champs is impressive but at senior t&f champs it is the same large city based clubs that continuosly show up in the medals. Most samll towns in Ireland have a juvenile athletic club but do not have the population to sustain an adult section, kids graduating from juvenile to senior have nowhere to progress to, no training partners, fewer competitive opportunities and in all but rare circumstances disappear from the sport. A vibrant adult section peopled by novices and latecomers fills that void and can help in sucking kids through to senior level.

There are other reasons for fall off in participation rates, several of which are beyond our control, eg. the crazy points system which drives kids away from all extra curricular activities, never to return, and this nations obsession with getting rat-arsed at the weekend.

What can be remedied is the AAI's neglect of many of their duties. Take publicity for instance. While the national media embraced DOR's incredible win at the weekend, the AAI neglected to even submit results from it's National Short Course champs to the media and as a result not one of the daily broadsheets carried even a mention of the event. This is a regular occurrence. The AAI's one attempt at a top grade t&f meet, the Dublin International, is affectionatley known as 'The Secret International'.

There is huge growth in the number of regular Joe's drawn to the sport in the last couple of years and it's up to the AAI and clubs around the country to take advantage of this, and convert these guys into active club members, administrators, coaches and supporters.

There is one contributor to this thread, a clubmate of mine, who could never have envisioned himself partaking in this discussion as recently as 2 years ago but could now be described as an athletics enthusiast. This can only be good for the sport.

thirtyfoot

This is good, some real debate about an athletics topic. I'm not against masters competitions (I'll be a master myself pretty soon) but I do believe the high participation levels in masters has a negative more than positive effect on athletics development. Some have pointed out that that the competing masters could be targeted more at getting them involved, I think this is a great idea, but how do you do this? Perhaps create a qouta system, a club must have a certain percentage of certified coaches in relation to the number of registered/competing masters. But this could drive masters from the sport altogether if clubs are struggling to get enough qualified coaches. But then again, would that be a bad thing? Its hard to get possible coaches interested, but the AAI could do more at events like Ballycotton or other events, have a "Coaching Ireland's Future- Why Not Get Involved" stand, with someone to talk to people , have a list of clubs from all regions in Ireland and their details and whether they want coaches or not. Has this ever been done?

OnwrdThruTheFog

Tingle, your suggestions are good ones. The problem, though, is that it would take initiative and enthusiasm from the AAI hierarchy to implement such a drive. And judging by your enthusiasm and initiative, I'm guessing you are not part of the AAI's inner sanctum!!

On a positive note, the AAI is, allegedly, a democratic organisation so it's up to the grassroots to prod them in the right direction.

Good luck prodding.

dermCu

I think you could look at this from another angle, why are so many older participants trying athletics?

I've always thought that there was a simple answer to this:
In terms of middle/long distances older participants have a natural advantage.
Ok, they don't have the natural fitness of younger runners but the strength and stamina they have built up over the years(not necessarily in running) mean that they are well suited to this kind of event.

In a lot of ways they are in their prime for distance events. They have discipline, time management skills and a positive mental attitude to running that most younger runners just don't have hence they enjoy their running a hell of a lot more and turn out in greater numbers than younger runners.

Why should we focus on a subset of runners and ask them to forfeit some of their most enjoyable years of competitive running in the hope that they will turn out to be good coaches ?

Truth be told, you don't have to be a master to pass on your experience to youngsters/newbies or to promote athletics. Much like you aoa321 I wont be entering the Olympics any time soon but I have picked some useful info in the last 7 years of running. I could pass this on to new runners if I could find the time to give to my local club. All of us who are involved in athletics are responsible for it's promotion. It's not fair to put the onus on masters alone.

Clum

I mentioned earlier how the AAI can be partially blamed for the lack of world class coaches in Ireland. Reading today's Irish Independent has furthered this belief. 5 athletes are being sent to the World Cross Country championships in Japan.

Maria McCambridge (4K), Rosemary Ryan (8k), Vinny Mulvey (8k), Stephen Scullion (Junior)and Sara Louise Treacy (Junior).

What's the point in coaching kids when they're not going to get to compete at the highest levels unless they win a national title? Why can't they send a team? The attitude is the team wont win so why bother sending them?

I'm sure some of our athlete's are concentrating their training on the European Championships this summer but surely some of the younger, promising athletes could have gone. Sending the likes of Mark Christie, second in the Long Course at 22 years of age, would be invaluble to him. I can't see him qualifying for the Euros (although it'd be great if he did) so the experience gained at that age would stand to him later. There's plenty more athletes around like him, and if he can't go because of college committments or something, I'm sure there are others who could go.

DaveH

Agree with you 100% clum. However ive been told by a very reliable source that Christie was offered the short course and didnt want to go. Still and all, Britian are sending 32 athletes to the world X. Why shouldnt Ireland?? Orla O'Mahony and Paul McNamara should be automatic choice aswell. I though Alistar Cragg and Sonia O'Sullivan were running as well?

How are these guys going to improve if there not running in the World X. It was the same last year with only two juniors going in the junior races.

Im on for putting a motion forward that Ireland should have to send a full team in all events to the European and World X.

OnwrdThruTheFog

I'm in agreement with DaveH. AAI should send full teams to World XC all the time. Gaining selection for events such as this is the raison d'etre for many of our distance runners. Very, very few of our distance runners are going to reach the 13.21 or 27.49 required of them to qualify for the major track champs and without the carrot on a stick of selection for world cross a lot of our top distance guys must be wondering why they bother. They bust a gut 12 months of the year and do everything asked of them only for a pen pusher behind a desk to decide they will not get to fulfill their ambitions.

This is already leading to a downward spiral in numbers & quality of senior distance runners. It has been mentioned that young, up and coming runners should be given the opportunity to compete, which is fair enough. But what about our more mature, sub-elite that fill the top 6 at nationals year in, year out. Is the message to these guys simply that there is no room for you in our sport! Who are the 'up and coming' athletes going to compete against when these guys retire because their incentive has been eliminated.

To a large extent I blame the IAAF for this rather than the AAI. They have allowed World XC champs to evolve to the stage that only elite nations are sending teams. Outside the ever expanding number of African and afro-arabic teams it's only the likes of Spain, Portugal, France, US, Australia send teams. Us and the Brits continue to send teams but are getting hammered, ie 20th out of 21 teams. If everyone sent teams we would look far more respectable and our result would be more representative of our standing in global XC. The runners are fulfilling their side of the bargain, it's up to the administrators to give them a fair chance.

howya horse

As a club coach,club and county official I could not adequately quantify the amount of time I devote to the sport. The fact that I am over 35 ( by 10 years) should not be used by anyone to belittle most of my colleagues contribution to bringing kids into the sport and nurturing their talents.

The lure of loot presented by GAA club and county teams,Rugby and Soccer at all levels is depriving athletics of coaching expertise far more than masters running a few road races or taking in 3 or 4 T & F events a year.


Many seniors are SO precious with their talents or maybe afraid of being beaten that they dont compete .....witness the paltry Senior turnouts at many county c'ships,Dublin Graded field events and the Leinster T & F.
What chance of them spending their middle age years traipsing around on sunday babysitting trips to Nenagh, Tullamore, and various mucky cross country courses all over Ireland.

Be honest Tingle and answer this question.
How many hours did YOU put into the sport FOR OTHERS in the past month.

thirtyfoot

howya horse wrote:

Be honest Tingle and answer this question.
How many hours did YOU put into the sport FOR OTHERS in the past month.

Zero. I'm 30 (ish), but when I hit 35(or sooner), I'll be coaching and not medal chasing.

Question for you howya horse. Knowing that athletics in Ireland is working off limited resources because of the drain from other sports which you pointed out yourself, we all accept there is a need for better coaches and administrators. Which of the following competing groups would you target in order to recruit coaches for underage athletes?
a) The Underage Athletes.
b) The Senior Athletes
c) The Masters Athletes.

Or, in order to save the sport and one of these groups had to be scrapped or less emphasis or resource used on it, which would you scrap or reduce?

howya horse

The fault does not exist specifically in these groups. It is a societal issue.."im all right Jack" medal chasing is not the sole preserve of Master.

Stephen Maguire will be putting new structures in place for coaching. Gary Ryan will be travelling to clubs and schools to see how best to progress.

A GREAT OPPORTUNITY will then pesent itself to you if you chose to become a coach. Then you will witness and experience first hand the level of selfless involvement which the majority of masters give to underage athletics.

Check out the composition of coaching and County,Provincial admin...Its well populated by unselfish masters.
Unfortunately many sports people retire in their mid 20s and buy a set of golf clubs...
Underage coaching and mentoring is a huge issue in team sports also.
People DONT put it back into clubs .Athletics Leinster had huge difficulty filling posts in recent years. The age profile of officials is reaching nursing home eligibility throughout the country. This is a problem with UKATHLETICS also and the subject of much debate.

ALL these youngsters are supposed to be reared by responsible adults.....Where are they golfing and shopping... Work commitments is ONLY an excuse...I know athletics officials and administrators with highly responsible posts and they make TIME to coach and administer .
I see a time in the future when juvenile athletics competitions will be stage at shopping centres.
While we are looking after youngsters their parents and siblings are wandering around Liffey Valley,Blancardstown and Dundrum.
Scary but true.
If you take the time to consult club coaches, who in most cases are a few years older than you and hence deemed eligble as dreaded masters, they will verify this scenario . Dont knock masters. Dont generalise. Get involved and learn the REALITY.

thirtyfoot

Because I haven't coached anyone in the past month doesn't mean I have never coached. I have been coaching athletes since I was 16, I have coached athletes who have represented Ireland at underage level. I have competed at a reasonably high level myself, representing Ireland up to senior level. Family members have been involved in the administration of athletics in Ireland for the past 40 years. Most of my friends are from athletics, I live and breathe the sport more than you might think. I know the reality. I know the sacrifices people make, I appreciate the sacrifices people have made for me and its because of that I believe I should give something back. All I am saying is that the best way to get more/better coaches and administrators, is to try and enourage masters athletes to focus more on coaching/administration than competing. In many events at last year National track and field championships, there were the same or in some cases more athletes in some veteran classes than in the Boys U19 events. In my opinion thats not good.

You say yourself Athletics Leinster had huge difficulty filling posts in recent years, so back to my original question, which group do you believe should be targeted in order to get more coaches/administrators?