Change the no-pm rule on the for sale forum

rsynnott

Oh, give it up; it's a silly idea and it's not going to happen.

rubadub

rsynnott wrote:

it's a silly idea

AHA! now see, thats the type of well reasoned argument I was looking for, it is perfectly clear now why it would be a complete disaster, what was I thinking! people would have been ripped off left, right & centre.

rsynnott

rubadub wrote:

AHA! now see, thats the type of well reasoned argument I was looking for, it is perfectly clear now why it would be a complete disaster, what was I thinking! people would have been ripped off left, right & centre.

The reasons have been outlined perfectly adequately above.

Lemming

rubadub wrote:

I think you are the blind one, did you miss the word ADDITIONAL
I put it in bold last time, maybe you will see it now :rolleyes:

Oh, "adduitional", as if what happens already isn't bad enough.

this is not additional, this can happen either way, and would be against the rules either way. If people sent a pm with their phone number the seller could phone them and start making new offers, so what? at present they could pm them and make new offers, whats the difference? whats adding to the problem?
It is up to the potential buyer to report the seller either way.

The difference is that you are encouraging them. We don't. The problem is there, although for the most part negligible. What you propose is to make it so wide-scale that any attempt to tackle a problem with it would require draconian censur on the part of the admins.

No, thats a ridiculous suggestion, I do not see any other restricitons in the charter that make no sense, and do not benefit either the seller or buyer.

It's not a ridiculous suggestion. It would show you the extent the problem can reach, in all its "glory". And it might remind a lot of Boards.ie membres what the situation was like two summers ago on the ticket forums. As for whom benefits, I don't think you're in a position to determine that.

Boston

Points to lemmings sig, points to rubadub

Devious

My brain is fried from reading this thread. Mods, just hand the keys of the asylum to the lunatics for a week, then send in the riot squad to beat them back in to line. :-/

KrankStricher

This may be too powerful an idea to cxecute, but would it be possible to create a special kind of spoiler tag, which can only be read by a specified person and of course the mods/admins.

For eg.

Basquille is selling a chimney pot

and I, Zanzibarcoo decide to buy it,
so I decide to send her my phone number on the thread using a special spoiler as mentioned above that only her or the mods can read.

Would that be plausible?

CuLT

It works how it works, we're not mucking around with anything for now because the For Sales section is likely to change dramatically at some point this year. It's simply not going to be allowed now, for reasons that have been very clearly outlined in this thread and in the charter. You break those rules and we find out, you will be banned permanently. Simple as that.

KrankStricher: you do that when you've made the deal on thread. The idea is to keep "dealing" on thread, not the finer points of how the users intend to transfer goods and cash.

rubadub

LiouVille wrote:

Points to lemmings sig, points to rubadub

So I presume you think stevenmu is also an idiot?

stevenmu wrote:

As for the ticket example, I'd guess someone could get away with asking people to bid on the thread, but pm their numbers when they do. Then when the seller gets to his time cut off point he can see the highest bid on the thread, get that users number from the pm and finish the thread. I know there's been a few times where I've made an offer on something but wouldn't have net access for the next few days so I've made the bid on thread and sent the seller a pm with my details in case it's accepted.

CuLT wrote:

You break those rules and we find out, you will be banned permanently. Simple as that.

So are you going to ban stevenmu?

ai ing

Ok so auctions are not allowed and there must be a guidline price up front.

If you offer less than the guideline then you should wait for the seller to accept it before PMing - kinda presumptuous otherwise.

If you offer the guideline then you could PM your details because that offer would be accepted.

Where is the need for PMs to be sent other than when the seller accepts an offer less than the guideline or a buyer offers the guideline?

Talliesin

rubadub wrote:

Yes, somebody may take the ticket or the money. Not sure if you were actually being scarcastic as it seems you cannot grasp my simple idea.

Your inability to grasp your own simple idea is breath-taking.

IT CANNOT BE POLICED
PREVIOUS INCIDENTS INDICATE A NEED TO POLICE IT:rolleyes:

rubadub

ai ing wrote:

Ok so auctions are not allowed and there must be a guidline price up front.

Fine

ai ing wrote:

If you offer less than the guideline then you should wait for the seller to accept it before PMing - kinda presumptuous otherwise.

What is wrong with being presumptuous? In this case being presumptuous simply saves time and causes no grief.

ai ing wrote:

If you offer the guideline then you could PM your details because that offer would be accepted.

That is also presumptuous, and I also see no harm in it.

ai ing wrote:

Where is the need for PMs to be sent other than when the seller accepts an offer less than the guideline or a buyer offers the guideline?

For the reasons/scenarios already given...

rubadub

Talliesin wrote:

Your inability to grasp your own simple idea is breath-taking.

Really? do you think stevenmu should be banned? I find it bizarre that you cannot think what he did was a reasonable logical idea.
I am still waiting to hear a scenario where this will lead to all this predicted mayhem.

PREVIOUS INCIDENTS INDICATE A NEED TO POLICE IT

"IT" in this case being the pming of a phone number in advance? nothing else?
Thats exactly the incident I am looking for and none of you can give examples of!

GoneShootin

rubadub wrote:

"IT" in this case being the pming of a phone number in advance? nothing else?
Thats exactly the incident I am looking for and none of you can give examples of!

And why should they? No-one that matters wrt changing the current FS forums system has backed your idea, and the silence of the Admins speaks volumes. None of the FS Mods has even entertained your idea, as they know from practical experience that it will not work.

Damn you ai ing for bringing this thread back!

rubadub

And why should they?

To shut me up! this thread would have been finished long ago if they had divulged some of these mysterious "practical reasons" why it will not work. All I have heard about is people making offers off-line, nothing to do with my suggestion.

GoneShootin wrote:

the silence of the Admins speaks volumes.

Damn right! It went mysteriously quiet after what I said below. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiouVille
Points to lemmings sig, points to rubadub

So I presume you think stevenmu is also an idiot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenmu
As for the ticket example, I'd guess someone could get away with asking people to bid on the thread, but pm their numbers when they do. Then when the seller gets to his time cut off point he can see the highest bid on the thread, get that users number from the pm and finish the thread. I know there's been a few times where I've made an offer on something but wouldn't have net access for the next few days so I've made the bid on thread and sent the seller a pm with my details in case it's accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuLT
You break those rules and we find out, you will be banned permanently. Simple as that.

So are you going to ban stevenmu?

GoneShootin

rubadub wrote:

To shut me up!

There are other ways to shut you up.

rubadub wrote:

It went mysteriously quiet after what I said below. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

No you don't understand. The Admins have not posted anything in this thread. Generally the Admins will not post on a thread unless they see a requirement to. If they were taking your idea on board, or the impending need to defend the current system, don't you think they would have replied by now?

rubadub wrote:

So are you going to ban stevenmu?

That's for the FS Tickets mods to decide. Personally I wouldn't.

rubadub

GoneShootin wrote:

There are other ways to shut you up.

Yep surprised some mod hasnt yet. Thought they may have locked the thread to avoid answering the question about stevenmu. Very simple to do, "eh, I'm stuck for a reasonable answer, lock this up so I don't have to admit it".

GoneShootin wrote:

No you don't understand. The Admins have not posted anything in this thread.

Fair enough, I thought by admins you included the mods. Now I realise they are separate.

GoneShootin wrote:

That's for the FS Tickets mods to decide. Personally I wouldn't.

Neither would I, but he did exactly what I am proposing should be allowed which others think will lead to chaos

WizZard

In a (few) words, allowing PMs of phone numbers in itself would probably not lead to "utter chaos", but anyone who spends any time in the FS forums will know - even with the current rules, it's difficult to get people to obey them as it is. So allowing any form of communication via PM, before a deal is agreed will be abused. Thus it is fairer to everybody to force all correspondence to be on thread. As I read it that's the best thing for the community.

Maybe you've forgotten that boards is generally intended for a community (if we overlook DeV's semi-egomaniacal aspirations of world domination:)) and not just for the benefit of one person. Nor are the FS boards there to allow people to make money quickly, but to sell off some stuff that others may want (Admittedly they have blossomed!). If you are in such a rush to sell something, boards is probably not the best place to sell it.

Anyway, back OT. If the PMs were allowed, and even if they weren't abused in the way that the past history of the FS boards has show that they would be (by this I mean off thread offers and gazumping), would you like to attempt to sell a popular item and have to read >50 PMs where people just send you their phone number? And what about those people that PM and fail to identify themselves or their offer. Would you like to keep two browser windows open and attempt to match up, and keep track of the offers/numbers/names?
I've posted threads where the responses have grown to 60 in less than an hour. Considering that the only post I'm interested in is the one where my asking price is met...
I will also pre-emptively point out that allowing PMs only when asking price has been met will only cause consternation to posters/sellers due to the well-documented inability of posters to read the charters. All they need to see is one "PM sent" post and they think it's their God-given right to PM the seller.

The mods do their job for free, so why make their job more difficult? At the moment there is one golden rule - No Off-Thread Dealing, which is relatively easy to police.
You have to think of the proposed benefits to users, versus the extra workload on the mods.

orlaanne

I personally think the system works fine having been through it once or twice but the only thing I have a problem with is the banning punishment for not reading the rules. A week is a little harsh imo, a day or two at max might be better.

Mods you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and if i was banned for a week for one simple mistake (which in fairness with a lot of people it is, not many people reads the terms and conditions of anything) I doubt I'd bother coming back.

And I am a mod on a forum for a well known music festival so I do have a little experience in the area of web policing.

Asok

Well by not reading the rules do you mean you broke the rules?

Off topic: Please god dont tell me you mod on the oxegen forums because if you do you have my deepest deepest condolences.

orlaanne

well yes i mean i suspect a lot of people inadvertantly break the rules cos they didnt read them first, which ok in fairness they should do but still banning for a week, a little over the top I think.

No Im not an oxe mod, I think they are all guys over there. Yeah oxe can get a bit rough sometimes . I mod for Electric Picnic, much calmer and less users. I am a bit jealous that ye have the power to ban, I dont.

Asok

Yeah one week can seem excessive however when 1 or 2 day bans were being handed out it was often the case that a person would regain their access and just break another rule. The week was decided upon basicly to try drive home the message that the rules are there and that they really should be read. Its harsh but very nescessary.

Talliesin

rubadub wrote:

Thats exactly the incident I am looking for and none of you can give examples of!

Sure, so me the full thread of correspondence between two people's PMs (neither of which can be yourself or an account of someone who will let you go through their PMs) and we'll work from there.

rubadub

WizZard wrote:

even with the current rules, it's difficult to get people to obey them as it is.

And always will be with or without this change off thread offers will happen. I am not suggesting the pming of offers.

WizZard wrote:

Maybe you've forgotten that boards is generally intended for a community and not just for the benefit of one person.

Yes, this will benefit the seller and all potential buyers.

WizZard wrote:

Nor are the FS boards there to allow people to make money quickly, but to sell off some stuff that others may want (Admittedly they have blossomed!). If you are in such a rush to sell something, boards is probably not the best place to sell it.

Boards can be a good place to sell last minute items though. People were saying go to buyandsell but it can take a week for an ad to appear. If something comes up on the day of a gig you can sell. Check the FS tickets boards many posts are gigs on that day, or one or 2 days in advance. In a previous thread one mod said he would perfer that the rules were not broken and see one member lose the money he paid for a ticket, and the other member miss out on going to a concert he wanted to see. He reckoned that the seller asking people to pm ONLY THEIR PHONE NUMBER to him in advance would lead to 100's of complaints.
(BTW if anybody does have an alternative for selling last minute tickets please let me know.)

WizZard wrote:

would you like to attempt to sell a popular item and have to read >50 PMs where people just send you their phone number?

Yes I would. I am currently waiting on a reply on a phone I am selling. Many people have different times on the web, like work hours, or after work, so a deal can take several days to sort out.

WizZard wrote:

And what about those people that PM and fail to identify themselves or their offer. Would you like to keep two browser windows open and attempt to match up, and keep track of the offers/numbers/names?

You ignore people who only PM. You go to your thread, find the person who made the highest offer, usually at the bottom, state in the thread you have accepted his offer. Now you go to your PMs, since his offer is last his pm should be near the top. Get his number as this is ALL he has pm'd. Then delete all the others.

WizZard wrote:

The mods do their job for free, so why make their job more difficult? At the moment there is one golden rule - No Off-Thread Dealing, which is relatively easy to police.
You have to think of the proposed benefits to users, versus the extra workload on the mods.

I am thinking of benefits vs extra workload. You are saying no off thread dealing is easy to police. How is this easy to police?, it is happening all the time and always will. If people have people trying to deal via pms at the moment they should report it to mods, this would be the same if people were allowed to pm phone numbers. But the only persons pm you will be reading is the one making the highest on thread offer.

I see possible less work for mods, there is no additional bumping of threads asking for pms, and no subsequent rechecking of threads needed.

rubadub

Talliesin wrote:

Sure, so me the full thread of correspondence between two people's PMs (neither of which can be yourself or an account of someone who will let you go through their PMs) and we'll work from there.

the pm would contain a phone number. end of story, end of correspondence.

Talliesin

rubadub wrote:

the pm would contain a phone number. end of story, end of correspondence.

Show me such a PM.

rubadub

Talliesin wrote:

Show me such a PM.

I have no idea what you want me to do/show. Do you want me to just type a phone number like I am suggesting is done? How are you trying to catch me out?

I am still looking for examples/scernarios where the pming of a phone number will lead to chaos and 100's of complaints.

irlrobins

I think the point that Talliesin is trying to make that since you can't read anyone's PMs and therefore show that it is just a phone number and nothing else, what makes you think the mods can either.

Anyway, don't you think you're just banging your head off a brick wall at the moment. Your idea isn't going to happen so just accept it.

GoneShootin

rubadub wrote:

I am still looking for examples/scernarios where the pming of a phone number will lead to chaos and 100's of complaints.

rubadub

irlrobins wrote:

I think the point that Talliesin is trying to make that since you can't read anyone's PMs and therefore show that it is just a phone number and nothing else, what makes you think the mods can either.

FFS, thats the point I have been making all along too...

Only one person has commented on stevenmu being banned, saying he shouldnt be. And not a single person has come up with a scenario where the suggestion will lead to complaints.

irlrobins

eh, no it's not.

Your point is that people should be allowed to PM phone numbers before a sale is agreed.

The mods point is that if people were allowed to PM before a sale is publicly agreed, there is no way of being sure that they were only PM'ing a phone number and not an offer. So to keep it simple and ensure no one abuses the system the rule is no PMs regardless of content until a sale is agreed.

End of.

rubadub

irlrobins wrote:

eh, no it's not.

eh, yes it is. I said it was a point I was making too, i.e. in addition, a concept many here have problems understanding.

if people were allowed to PM before a sale is publicly agreed, there is no way of being sure that they were only PM'ing a phone number and not an offer.

yes

and my point is.

if people were allowed to PM phone numbers before a sale is publicly agreed, there is no way of being sure that they were only PM'ing a phone number and not an offer.

Also if people were not allowed to PM before a sale is publicly agreed, there is no way of being sure that they were not PM'ing a phone number or offers.

irlrobins

Ok lets take the FS forum as a road and the no PMing rule as a speed limit.

Most people will hopefully (and do) obey the speed limit. There will always be a gobshite who will try and break the speed limit. But hopefully when a few of these gobshites are caught and punished this acts as a deterient to others. So all in all the system works and everyone is happy.

Under your idea, there is no speed limit. And all hell breaks loose.

So yes sometimes under the first system, things move a lil slower but generally everyone gets to where they want to go safely. The same can't be said for the second method.

That's all I have to comment on the matter.

And I think the silence from the FS mods and admins is proof they're ignoring you.

rubadub

irlrobins wrote:

Under your idea, there is no speed limit. And all hell breaks loose.

No. I don't agree at all, since I am all for the "speed limit" i.e. a rule in place to stop the specific activity you are trying to stop. A better comparison would be "seatbelts must be worn in cars at ALL times", blanket statement. And then me asking, if my car is parked in my garage can I sit in it with the seatbelt off,
- "no, the rule cannot change for any reason, it would result in carnage, if people were allowed not to wear a seatbelt in a garage where would it end! it would be unpoliceable, people would be ramming each other on the streets with no belts on, 1000's more killed each year, it would be a free-for-all for maniacs"

and I am still waiting for examples of all hell breaking loose when a phone number is pm'd in advance.
The rules were made to stop off thread dealing which I am against. pming a phone number in advance of a deal being accepted on thread is not dealing.

irlrobins wrote:

And I think the silence from the FS mods and admins is proof they're ignoring you.

Their silence speaks volumes. Only one person has commented on stevenmu being banned. Saying he shouldnt be and thereby negating many of the arguments others put up. They do not want to ban him, no doubt because he is a mod, and also because they realise it would be ridiculous and therefore would have to admit my idea does have good reason.

koneko

There might be something to the idea. As long as there is absolutely no off-thread dealing, I don't see anything wrong with putting in a post in the thread that says "I offer asking price" and PM'ing the original poster, and essentially saying "If you accept my offer, this is my phone number". That way only if the sale is agreed, they would be contacting that person by phone. Otherwise the thread continues as it did.

Off-thread dealing would still be strictly verboten though, so the original seller can't reply and go "I got a pm from someone offering x price, so offer more if you want it". It would only be to speed up a sale for people that would otherwise both agree on the sale. Offers are still only done on the thread.

It does have possible pitfalls/problems though, but I see rubadub's point, and I agree with some of it.

honru

rubadub wrote:

2 people may miss out, the ticket going to complete waste. Why would you wish that on people?

People can generally get their ticket sold outside the venue of the gig. This is presuming that this person is already going to the gig themselves and just have one spare. That is usually the case.

I'd imagine boards does miss out on a portion of possible sales that its community could benifit from, but there's no way you could bend the rules a little for such a scenario with the system that's in place now. People would just interpert them the way they want to.