HEADS UP! RTE 1 television tonight (7.30pm, March 20, 2006) - Léargas

Rovi

Just found out about this, [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Léargas is doing a programme tonight at 7.30pm on the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]James Healy shooting in Carlow in September 2005.
Details here- http://www.rte.ie/tv/leargas/week0106.html

.
[/FONT]

Sparks

Watching it now...

Sparks

That was a lot better than the Joe Duffy tripe we heard in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Focussed on the motivations of the parties involved instead of blaming firearms laws and decrying the notion of letting people own firearms.

Good heads-up Rovi.

Rovi

Yep, it dealt with a tragic event in a level handed way.

.

TomBeckett

It was better but it was still very one sided lads... you dont go and buy that much land for €80.000 when it is worth way way more and think that it was ok to do so and that it was not going to cause agro between the family involved. of course they did not say that on the tv:(

Rovi

Without getting into the details of this case, of which I know nothing except what has been published in the media, this looks like a family dispute that descended into madness.

My angle on it from the point of view of this forum, is my concern that this tragedy might be used by the usual suspects as a reason to 'do something'.
I'd suggest that this case probably has more bearing on legislation and general attitudes to our sport than the usual 'gun crime' stories, simply because a licenced firearm was used.

.

Vegeta

Rovi wrote:

Without getting into the details of this case, of which I know nothing except what has been published in the media, this looks like a family dispute that descended into madness.

My angle on it from the point of view of this forum, is my concern that this tragedy might be used by the usual suspects as a reason to 'do something'.
I'd suggest that this case probably has more bearing on legislation and general attitudes to our sport than the usual 'gun crime' stories, simply because a licenced firearm was used.

.

it may have been a linecsed firearm but what could have been done to prevent the tragedy, no matter what probing was done to the guy when he applied for his license he was not the same person when he pulled the trigger

Rovi

Vegeta wrote:

no matter what probing was done to the guy when he applied for his license he was not the same person when he pulled the trigger

Therein lies my concern.

.

Vegeta

Rovi wrote:

Therein lies my concern.

.

to have a real debate on this we need to know the number of deaths per year due to licensed firearms and their holders, I can only ever think of 2 or 3

Again - a word of warning.

Lay peoples interpretations and studys can really obscure true facts, and if such a debate (deaths due to licensed firearms or somthing similar) were to kick off here, a lot of crap would be thrown up.

This could then be cited as a 'Knowledgeable source' in some paper.

I personally would be against such a debate unless it took place in a private forum, where there is no risk of the threads being turned into negative spin.

On a positive note, accross the water, there has been some great coverage of the British common wealth games shooters on BBC with some good interviews and articles. They have been especially nice to the pistol and fullbore crowd, as Britain has preformed very well in both events.

That is the kind of press that is needed, not 'x deaths from licensed firearms holders!!'

Vegeta

original_psycho wrote:

Again - a word of warning.

Lay peoples interpretations and studys can really obscure true facts, and if such a debate (deaths due to licensed firearms or somthing similar) were to kick off here, a lot of crap would be thrown up.

This could then be cited as a 'Knowledgeable source' in some paper.

I personally would be against such a debate unless it took place in a private forum, where there is no risk of the threads being turned into negative spin.

On a positive note, accross the water, there has been some great coverage of the British common wealth games shooters on BBC with some good interviews and articles. They have been especially nice to the pistol and fullbore crowd, as Britain has preformed very well in both events.

That is the kind of press that is needed, not 'x deaths from licensed firearms holders!!'

Well no matter how much you want to hide 'x deaths from licensed firearms holders!' they are still there and to ignore them is just plain stupid. I personally would like to know the figures rather than stick my head in the sand and use the blah blah blah i'm not listening approach. I'd rather be educated than guess when it comes to all things firearms.

Of course the common wealth games is good press but facts are facts and in knowing these statistics maybe we could do something as a shooting community to try and bring the number down.

Then go find them out - but don't start splashing some statistics on the net.

Once you start that debate all the pub talk is going to come out.. how 'a guy I know once nearly did this...' you've seen how threads here go on, remember the tickknock one and the crap that was spouted about.

Do you really want that kind of crap to come out when you talking about deaths caused by firearms? thats not burying your head in the sand, its keeping it out of the fire, and being prudent. How is that going to benefit the shooting community?

Also, how would knowing the statistics 'bring the number down'? Stats are always bandied about, but always in such a way to prove the point of the person who collected them. They can very easily be turned over and used to back up the other persons point of view. Keep in mind that Ireland has statstically a lower number of deaths on the road then any other OECD country, but you still see the figures stating how many people died on this road - For a good reason. It helps reduce the deaths, but statistically road deaths are not a significant problem in Ireland in comparison to Europe or America.

Irrespective of whether one or a hundred people are being killed by shooters each year, I am still never going to point a gun ay anyone, or dick about on the range, or drink and shoot. If you need statistics to follow good range preceedure, then you have no business having a gun. Having read some of your previous posts I doubt that this is case with you Vegeta, and it is not a slight but it is one interpretation of what you have said, and one that is negative for the shooting community.

It's not a question of me 'hiding' the figures, I'm just not climing up a mountain to shout them out to everyone.

Why are there no threads about the commonwealth and all the positive press? There has been some fantastic shooting go on in Melbourne, and even though there are no Irish teams taking part, it has been positive for shooting on the whole. Why not talk about Chris or Louise's fantastic achievements? Or Mick Gaults recording breaking? Are those not positive shooting facts? Or are they not valid as they dont contain sensationalist content?

Thats positive press, rather then headlining all those who have been killed by shooters.

Sparks

As Rovi said above OP, albiet indirectly, he flagged this programme because when the shooting first happened, the line taken by most of the sensasionalist tabloid sources was that this could have been avoided if firearm licences were not issued, and there was the worry that this would dredge that up again.

The concern over whether or not the mental state of an applicant should be taken into consideration when issuing a licence is a valid one. Those who represent us to the DoJ have already agreed as such in public to them and to the relevant Dail committees, in public and on the record. The Barr tribunal's findings and recommendations have already been given a slot in the new CJB to be implemented as law - our talking about this here, if reported in the press would be a good thing. It would mean that our point of view was seen.

Also, frankly, the notion of not talking about something we think might not look good for us is wrong-headed.

Our sport holds up very well under scrutiny, thankfully. Such scrutiny will always be applied as we're not a well understood sport - so it's in our best interest to examine ourselves on a continual basis, honestly and openly, warts and all. It's also in the best interests of the rest of the public. If there are those of us in our community whom we feel make us look bad, then our actions shouldn't be to not talk about them, but to openly censure them. For example, those muppets who go about shooting road signs (and we've talked about them before) are not a good reflection on us. They're unsafe, irresponsible idiots - and for us to point that out in a place the press and gardai can see is a good thing. We're not playing with toys here. Firearms take a degree of maturity to use safely and if we know someone who isn't displaying that maturity then they are a danger to us and others and keeping silent is morally wrong, even if an unethical person could use the existance of such a person to harm us.

Sparks, I agree with all that you say, however I would prefer, as a member of this shooting community, if such discussions about deaths caused by firearms, and other such topics to be handled by people who are trained or well used to handling such sensitive issues with the press or government.

An open discussion, on a public board on which quite a few 'unregistered' views log on, about shootings most sensitive issues, might not be the optimal way to broach such conerns.

I have also noted (and know that I am going to get slated for saying it, but what the heck!) that a lot of bitching goes about the Gardai and other authorities. But when sucess is published, ie DURC wins Celtic League, WTSC wins last few Rathdrum shoots, WTSC does well in Bisley, MNSCI does well in F CLass, these threads have aroused little or no debate, yet they are really positive things, and as is currently being proven in England, can help swing a more positive perception of the sport.

More talk on such matters might help further the public understanding of our sport, and the celebration of any sucess, such as Irish target and F class shooting reaching international standard will accrue benefits to us all.

At least thats my view... feel free to disagree!

Sparks

I'd agree with most of that OP, as you know - but the problem with leaving only trained PROs to talk about subjects that show our not-so-good side is that it would only affect here. Read the Shooters Digest lately? Read what those who represent us have said over the past year? Believe me, we're arguing over the best way to close the barn door long after the sound of hoofsteps has faded!

There's also the lesson learn ten years ago in the UK, where the shooting bodies refused to engage on a point which could make them look bad and as a result the only voices heard were those that discussed such points with the specific motive of seeing pistol shooting shut down. End result? Pistol shooting was shut down.

The discussions here can be rough and ready quite often, and we're never going to be a fully harmonious whole, any more than any other group of people, but I'd rather see us talking than afraid to do so for fear of what those who think we should be shut down might twist our words into.

Vegeta

original_psycho wrote:

Then go find them out - but don't start splashing some statistics on the net.

Once you start that debate all the pub talk is going to come out.. how 'a guy I know once nearly did this...' you've seen how threads here go on, remember the tickknock one and the crap that was spouted about.

Do you really want that kind of crap to come out when you talking about deaths caused by firearms? thats not burying your head in the sand, its keeping it out of the fire, and being prudent. How is that going to benefit the shooting community?

Also, how would knowing the statistics 'bring the number down'? Stats are always bandied about, but always in such a way to prove the point of the person who collected them. They can very easily be turned over and used to back up the other persons point of view. Keep in mind that Ireland has statstically a lower number of deaths on the road then any other OECD country, but you still see the figures stating how many people died on this road - For a good reason. It helps reduce the deaths, but statistically road deaths are not a significant problem in Ireland in comparison to Europe or America.

Irrespective of whether one or a hundred people are being killed by shooters each year, I am still never going to point a gun ay anyone, or dick about on the range, or drink and shoot. If you need statistics to follow good range preceedure, then you have no business having a gun. Having read some of your previous posts I doubt that this is case with you Vegeta, and it is not a slight but it is one interpretation of what you have said, and one that is negative for the shooting community.

It's not a question of me 'hiding' the figures, I'm just not climing up a mountain to shout them out to everyone.

Why are there no threads about the commonwealth and all the positive press? There has been some fantastic shooting go on in Melbourne, and even though there are no Irish teams taking part, it has been positive for shooting on the whole. Why not talk about Chris or Louise's fantastic achievements? Or Mick Gaults recording breaking? Are those not positive shooting facts? Or are they not valid as they dont contain sensationalist content?

Thats positive press, rather then headlining all those who have been killed by shooters.

To start with I would love to know the statistics on number of overall firearms deaths a year and of those how many were by guns being used by their licensed owner and if someone could point me in the right direction (i.e. who do i ask) I would only be too happy to find them out.

The reason I want to know these figures is that I am sure the number of deaths due to licensed firearms being used by their owners are very low which is a testament to our community.

How can we ever expect to win the "bad press" arguement if we cant defend ourselves against the media. if a paper publishes an article tomorrow stating there have been say 50 firearm related deaths this year and all guns should be banned as a result, I would like to be able to say that none of these deaths were caused by law abiding citizens like you and me so why take our sport away and point them in the right direction i.e. unlawful use and sale of firearms.

The number of deaths caused by licensed firearms would certainly have a few accidents in there, if by better education and leading by example we could only prevent 1 death well then that's enough. How many people here had to do a safety course to get their shotgun license. I did. I bet anyone here with a handgun has done a safety course.

If we get the figures from a reliable source well then i don't see a problem with talkng about it. If you don't want to contribute to the conversation that's fine.

Also may i point out all the "good press" in the upcoming competition sticky and all the posts that Sparks puts up about results. You don't have to look to the common wealth games for good press there's plenty here

We are all actually arguing over the best way to agree about something!

Personally I would be interested in the facts about shooting incidents - however only the facts. Most statistics are estimations, and (I study statistics) and the same data set can be twisted easily.

If we could establish hard facts, ie exact numbers, no averages, no correlations, no pub gossip, then I think that would be a useful excercise.

However, some members would invariably start sprouting the crap, or brining in 'near death experiences' that their friend overheard in the jacks.

Also, mods, how about a 'results' sticky? One that will collect all results, and can be pointed to in order to show the current status of Irish shooting across all disciplines?

As Sparks said earlier, if the info is there the journos will use it.

Vegeta

original_psycho wrote:

We are all actually arguing over the best way to agree about something!

Personally I would be interested in the facts about shooting incidents - however only the facts. Most statistics are estimations, and (I study statistics) and the same data set can be twisted easily.

If we could establish hard facts, ie exact numbers, no averages, no correlations, no pub gossip, then I think that would be a useful excercise.

However, some members would invariably start sprouting the crap, or brining in 'near death experiences' that their friend overheard in the jacks.

Also, mods, how about a 'results' sticky? One that will collect all results, and can be pointed to in order to show the current status of Irish shooting across all disciplines?

As Sparks said earlier, if the info is there the journos will use it.

Yeah we are sayin the same thing but in our own ways i suppose, I want cold hard facts also. I work with stats quite a bit as I do a lot of Yield Analysis work, weird

I'm going off topic here but with a basic data set of shooting figures,

I could highlight a link between the number of tens I shoot and the decline in donkeys in Argentina.

Even though correlation is not causation, I have never read a front page apology on a paper.