Cromwell

ODS

Anybody else ever consider the irony that were it not for 'Crumbwell', Ireland would have been left without its quintessential irish dish, bacon and cabbage, as it was his troops who brought over the first cabbages - landing them in Ringsend?

A bit like the other oddety that it was another englishman, Walter Raleigh, who was responsible for introducing the potato

Mick86

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm curious how Cromwell is taught in Irish History Classes.

Sort of a cross between Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Pol Pot. But not as nice as those three.

But that's not unusual. All English leaders were the anti-christ in Irish history.

flogen

I saw some Documentary about Cromwell, on UKTV or something, and it detailed his entire "career" or life; it's worth noting that most good Cromwell did for England was within England etc., and so it wouldnt be thought in Ireland anyway, some may say his actions in Drogheda were good for England/Britain but obviously they weren't for Ireland.

He is seen in Education as a vilain of sorts, and it's understandable, I can't remember if the link between the protestant murders is made, though... worth checking up... Of course it's still valid to make the connection and see the man as evil, after all.

The Documentary I watched (which due to the admiration it was showing I expected to skip the whole Ireland thing) made no bones about his actions in Ireland and didn't justify it in any way.

ScottishDanny

Here's my 2 cents
The guy was a religious fundamentalist maniac, a kind of protestant ayatollah. "God told me to do it". He fought with everyone and anyone. One poster said that he never brought trouble to England! (English Civil War anyone?) He was ruthless against the Irish as is well known, and the Scots and the Royalist English. Some English Academics call him the father of democracy which is crazy.
Groups such as the diggers and the levellers took his rise to power to mean they could take over unworked land from landowners and work it themselves in communes - so he killed them all (Hey we're common but some are more equal than others). He became 'Lord Protector' of England and the title (de facto King) passed on to his son (doesn't sound very republican or democratic to me).
He should be remembered as the father of the White Slave Trade ("Those who were not put to the sword were put in chains, bound for the barbados"). His 'mission' to Ireland was not inspired by the 1641 massacres but by 'Ye goode booke' "And David went forth and slew the red-haired race."
And enough about 'well at the time that was common', you can't get on a high horse of evangelical righteousness and then commit acts of genocide whether its the 21st century, 17th or the old testament.
Phew! finished.

quickbeam

A question on University Challenge recently (or was it Mastermind ...?) mentioned that he allowed the Jews back to Britain after their exile 300+ years before by Edward I. If true, it's about the only decent thing that can be said about him.

Father of democracy? That would be Simon de Montfort who was actually able to control a king without killing him! If Cromwell had a bit of intellegence he would have found a way around Charles I without resorting to execution.

ScottishDanny

Its true that he didn't bring his wrath upon the jews, Simon Schama (Prominent Right of centre Jewish Historian) uses this as evidence of what a great guy he was. I wonder if this was because Jews at that time lent him money for his war effort? As Jews were not allowed to own assets such as land they made their money from loans. Cromwell was known to have mismanaged the economy hence the granting of confiscated Irish land to his soldiers in lieu of wages.

von Bismarck

I'm down in good old Wexford and for some reason he is, in a way, celebrated here eg.places and housing estates are named after him.

This is done despite the fact that he murdered so many of us!!

WHY? I just don't get it.

xxx jack

cromwell was the biggest wanker to ever set foot in this country

Mad Finn

If the OP is still around and wants some balanced reportage on Cromwell then there was a revisionist book written about 10 years ago by an Irish historian called 'Cromwell: an honourable enemy' which put into context his behaviour in Ireland.

Apparently, and I would not allow myself to buy the tripe but I did see a TV promo documnetary for it, his point was that Cromwell was acting within the rules of war at the time which said that if you besieged a town you had to offer them the chance to surrender and if they did, the garrison was allowed to march off wherever it pleased. If they refused and lost then they could all be bumped off once it was over.

Big deal. The guy was still a religous fundamentalist maniac who preached democracy yet replaced the monarchy with a nepotistic dictatorship that was so loathed by the English people that within a few years of his death they brought back the beheaded King's son and restored him to the monarchy. They then went after and executed or jailed just about everybody who was responsible for the beheading of Charles I and also, and this is the bit that usually isn't taught in Ireland, the mob actually dug up Cromwell's skeleton and hung it from the gibbet in public to demonstrate their distaste for everything he stood for.

Then they had a ball, re-opening the theatres which he had closed, re-instated the celebration of festivals, reopened the taverns and generally indulging in the excesses of life that had been denied them during a period of religious austerity.

Bit like the Celtic Tiger after we found out about Bishop Casey, Micheal Cleary and all those paedophile priests.

BTW not much has been heard of that 'Cromwell was a nice guy really' historian since.

BrianCalgary

Thanks for the info Madfinn.