House Construction/finishing - Quality [bit of a rant]

I bought into a housing development last year. Three story terraced style townhouse buildings. Three floors, three bedrooms. Quite a nice price, although not cheap. It was my second time buying a house, although the first time I bought an older house and refurbished it, for resale.

So my house was finished building in October. Paid up the remaining amounts due, got the snag list organised by a engineer, and the issues fixed. Sorted. Or so I thought. :rolleyes:

I'm actually getting quite pissed about this recently. Every time I turn around something is broken, or damaged. I fully expected some problems since I had some with my previous house, but I didn't expect such a crapfest since this was a brand new house. Right. I was completely and utterly naive.

Firstly the Gas heating was installed incorrectly. It had a valve missing, was commissioned by the Gas installer regardless, and was being used regularly. Only problem is that after a little while I got a smell of gas. The valve that prevents gas escaping was missing. Never installed. So my gas could have blown up at any stage of the week I was living there :mad: . So I got it fixed, and I thought, it would be ok. Nope. The heating hasn't worked properly despite my getting the builder to come out roughly 8 times now. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I got a friend plumber to take a look, and he said the builder had installed the cheapest possible gas boiler on the market.

And its not just that. The lack of finishing on the walls, floors, the plumbing (which blocked itself for 4 days before I could get it fixed), the sewage system, the windows (gaps large enough for my hand to fit through at the edges), the taps have blocked on two occasions, the lack of proper ventillation shafts being placed (half-hearted attempts made by builder).

Now some of this is my fault. I should have pressed the engineer harder when the snag list was done, but getting time off work is a bitch these days. I thought at least that I'd get proper service from a professional, but nope that certainly didn't happen.

But I'm most annoyed by the lack of qaulity & finish on the house. Parts of the walls, actually feel like wood when I rap my knuckles on them. The use of such cheap installations like the gas, or the actual heating system (electricals and all), the badly installed timber flooring which was an optional extra which I paid for, or the messing around with the sewage system.

It makes me wonder though. Is this that widespread? Are the quality of newly built housing really this bad across the country? Am I really expecting too much to have received a better service, considering the large amount I paid?

I'm in Cork (out by carrigaline), and I actually paid 265K for the property.

Dub13

Moved from Consumer Issues.

sorry abt that.

Dub13

Deleted User wrote:

sorry abt that.

No problem,you will get a better response here.

HelterSkelter

Just wondering if you can you hear your neighbours through the walls? My friend was telling me he can hear his neighbour switching on her lights, her mobile phone alarm in the mornings, the sound of her shower, etc etc. He bought a new house about 3 years ago.

well, I expected to hear some noise from next door. I figured it would be slightly less than that of an apartment. But I can hear just about everything, including the person snoring next door. Their having sex has been quite interesting and funny. :rolleyes:

But it IS annoying, since I've spoken to my neighbours a fair bit. You can hear music (played at a medium level, with normal bass settings) almost two houses down. Thin walls aren't very good at stopping the sound.

Funnily enough I had an cheap apartment in Germany, and the walls were soundproofed. The Polish tenants on both sides of me (lovely people btw) have bitched quite a bit, since they say their country may be ****ty but their housing is built a hell of alot better.

Dub13

I seen a add in the Northside people this week for a company who soundproofed houses.It made me wounder

A)Is it successful and really worked.

B)Is it expensive.

In this day houses should be built proper alot better then what they are whacking up these days.I no company's have deadline's and have to make money but people have to live in these houses.

Victor

Deleted User wrote:

the windows (gaps large enough for my hand to fit through at the edges),

Your house sounds screwed, get a separate survey done and consider solicitor letters. Gather together all the documentation you have and check what the defects liability period is, typicly its 6-24 months.

EireRoadUser

I work in this area, don't think i've ever heard of such a problem.

You have to be registered to work at gas ,that means vat registered.
Not only do you have to be vat registered you have to have insurance.

Who are you calling in relation to these problems ??

The Gas Board have strict regulations .

When I moved in the boiler had a sticker saying that the boiler had been commissioned by the gas board, which was confirmed when I set up my account with them. However, it turns out the Gas board just checked the meters out front of the house, and it was the builder's craftsman who commissioned it.

I don't know if he's authorised for it, but no member of Bord Gais actually checked the boiler until I called them out (out of fear that it would explode on me)

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote:

When I moved in the boiler had a sticker saying that the boiler had been commissioned by the gas board, which was confirmed when I set up my account with them. However, it turns out the Gas board just checked the meters out front of the house, and it was the builder's craftsman who commissioned it.

There are registered gas installers, you should have the name of the installer who certified it. Here is the list for Cork from here

Bord Gais certifies its own installers, contact them formally about this issue see http://www.bordgais.ie/htm/network_dev/docs/technicaltraining0905.pdf and maybe ring up the manager for a chat about this shoddiness and schedule an audit of the installation ...if done by a registered installer or (more likely) signed off by a registered installer but done by a badly paid immigrant with no english working for a subbie . Write to the training manager after you speak to him on the phone, lest there be any slippage .

Get a heating engineer , degree level, to inspect the job and produce a report of the faults , a heating engineer not on that list above preferably !

Get a structural engineer (consultant) or surveyor ( consultant) to quantify the rest and report faults

The builder will drag his arse beyond the 24 month 'extended ' snag if you do not document the issues in full and get your solicitor to send the reports as an appendix to short cover letter asking they be fixed in full by the end of April or else its the court for them on the 1st of May.

Its all cheaper than fixing it yourself, make sure you bill them for all your time off letting them in and cleaning up after them , etc.

Paulw

Here's my rant on the issue ---

In the last year we purchased a new premises built by Newlyn Development Ltd. I wonder what their core company value is, or what their company vision is? I'm sure they're not unique, but rather, they are very normal in the building trade.

I work in a service industry. We provide products and services to a number of customers. One of our company's core values is "Professionalism".

Why does the building trade seem to be so very different to any industry I've ever worked in? I've always strived to do my job as best I can, so that no one would have cause to complain. I have my job thanks to the customers. In that respect, I am there to serve the customer and ensure they get what was to be delivered - in a professional and timely fashion.

If I did a job on a customer site, and they came back with a list of faults and complaints, then I have obviously failed in my job. But yet this is normal in the building trade. It's expected that there are faults, and it's your job to find them and highlight them. It's called a "snag list". Can anyone show us another industry with a similar scheme?

And if you can't/don't find these faults and they're not on your snag list, then it's your fault. It's not the fault of the builders, who didn't complete the work, didn't finish the job properly, no, it's your fault that you didn't find their mistakes.

Why is it also, that builders seem to take so long to complete the faulty work, on the snag list? Obviously the structure itself is normally fine. Most of the things on a snag list would be somewhat cosmetic - missing screws, damaged paintwork, damaged woodwork, incomplete wiring, bad design/layout of sinks/toilets etc. But to get anything done or changed seems to take weeks. It's a nightmare.

Now the builders may say that there are faults because there are multiple parties involved - builders, painters, plumbers, electricians. That to us is an excuse and not a reason. The company I work for doesn't build, produce and install 100% of everything we sell to the end customer, far from it. But yet, we, as the seller, ensure that what the end customer gets works properly and is delivered professionally. It is up to us to coordinate with all other vendors to make sure the customer is happy. We expect these other vendors to be as professional as we are. We can't see how builders are any different, except in their level of professionalism.

Of course, if you start to chase the builders, or ask when things will be done, you're told you've got an attitude.

Yes, I certainly have an attitude - it's one I've had my entire career - an attitude of expecting something done properly and in a timely manner. I expect nothing less than I'd give to my customers. And of course, for expressing such views, I'm then in the "bad books" of the builder and so my tasks take longer. They go to the bottom of the pile.

Of course, if you then find issues, through actually being around your new premises, and you highlight them to the builder, it can be a case of - "it's not on your snag list, we'll have to see what we can do now". In my industry/company, it would be more a case of "Very sorry we never spotted that. We'll have that resolved for you as soon as we can."

Most industries that I know of, or have worked with, all do their very best to give the customer the best possible product, completed and in full working order. When you buy a car, you expect every single part to work properly. When you buy a TV, you expect it to have a clear picture and sound. When you buy a computer you expect it all to work first time. But, when you buy a house, you know you have to go find all the faults, and then expect the builder to then fix them.

Can someone please explain one thing to us - WHY?

Victor

Anyone can be a builder and builders are in demand at the moment. Try ordering a pint at last call in a busy pub.

Construction is a complicated activity - its not something you can control like in a factory (hence the shift to prefabrication).

mad m

One contractor I worked for was alway moaning about snags lists,the builder hired him for his price for each house but never paid him to cover going back to touch up paint work.Everyone is cutting each others throat to get work and builders are loving it.

Im not surpirsed snag lists arent done when they were supposed to be done.I did snags lists for three years by myself on a housing estate which had over 7phases on it.Sometimes 6 houses would come in one day and they wanted it done yesterday.When I was doing snags(Painting) I would more or less get a few lists done in a day,but the other trades,electrican,plumbers etc would almost always have to dig out a wire or repair a leak and then it was down to the painter to fix it up......

EireRoadUser

You can hire people to do your list.
You can be sure that investors wouldn't put up with any crap from builders ,so why should anyone else.

Paulw

I think those involved in the building trade are just lazy and unprofessional. They don't bother doing it right the first time, and so have to come back to "fix" faults.

I've learned a lot from buying.

There are plenty of "excuses" for the need for snag lists, but there are no real reasons.

The building profession would save time and resources if the place was done right the first time, and it would save a lot of hassle for the new buyers.

EireRoadUser

I'm a gas fitter ,install heating systems from scratch on my own for the domestic market.
I don't work with builders and 75% of work is from word of mouth.

I think you'll find that the book never stops anywhere when there are numerous trades involved.
Thank god there is a good flow of construction work going on though ,it's the reason this country is so confident about the future at the moment.

the_syco

Paulw wrote:

Now the builders may say that there are faults because there are multiple parties involved - builders, painters, plumbers, electricians. That to us is an excuse and not a reason.

People who build the house (for an estate): the builders, the plumbers, the carpenters, the electricians, the electricians (2nd fitters), the plasters, and a few more. You do the same job, day in day out, and you may miss one item (such as you forget one plug). That will go on the snag list. You do 4 house's a day, and maybe have to redo a house again, if the person before you didn't do their job right, or you have to finish their job.

Paulw wrote:

But yet, we, as the seller, ensure that what the end customer gets works properly and is delivered professionally. It is up to us to coordinate with all other vendors to make sure the customer is happy. We expect these other vendors to be as professional as we are. We can't see how builders are any different, except in their level of professionalism.

And most building companies do this. But, like all other trades, you get your "cowboys". You avoid these people, but unless you know they're cowboys, you use them, and you'll hate them for doing a crap job.

Paulw

Surely there's an order to building a house/apt? It's not a case that the odd thing isn't done properly - every single house/apt has items to snag. If 1/4 houses had to have faults fixed that's still 1 more than there should be.

Have you ever seen a place that had nothing to snag???

It's those involved trying to do as little as possible. If the building trade took pride in it's work, rather than trying to do as little as possible to earn their money, then there would be a lot less complaints and less for them to come back and fix.

Obviously there are some very good people in the construction industry, but as a whole, the industry has a poor reputation.

I bet the majority of builders wouldn't want to live in the properties they build, since they know the faults and the poor level of workmanship.

mad m

Paulw wrote:

Have you ever seen a place that had nothing to snag???

In a perfect world I would imagine you would see this.

Victor

Paulw wrote:

Surely there's an order to building a house/apt? It's not

What sort of English is "It's not", sod off and come back when you can say it properly. And whats with typing "1/4" instead of "¼"? :rolleyes:

See?

fintan

Paulw wrote:

Have you ever seen a place that had nothing to snag???

Only once, had to send someone out to double check that I wasn't hallucinating, we sent the finishing foreman a bottle of whisky and refunded the customer.

EireRoadUser

Does anyone have a legal right to test a house for soundproofing as part of the snag.
I.E. Some in the house adjacent with a unit emmiting various sounds with someone else in your new house checking levels??
Spot checks could easily be done by an independent group etc.

I'm sure it's the sole reason for tension in certain new developments.

babaduck

Houses are built in accordance with building regulations - it's the regs which need to change....

godtabh

babaduck wrote:

Houses are built in accordance with building regulations - it's the regs which need to change....

It also about workmanship.

Poorley placed concrete in aparments can result in poor sound insulation. The better the concerte is compacted the more dense it is and the more sound proof it is.

Victor

EireRoadUser wrote:

Does anyone have a legal right to test a house for soundproofing as part of the snag.

Anyone can test their own house or rather get a sound specialist to test it for them.

There may be practicalities / trepass issues testing next door.

kurant

Dub13 wrote:

I seen a add in the Northside people this week for a company who soundproofed houses.It made me wounder

A)Is it successful and really worked.

B)Is it expensive.

In this day houses should be built proper alot better then what they are whacking up these days.I no company's have deadline's and have to make money but people have to live in these houses.

Here is only two from many company's House insulations on the market www.premierinsulations.com ; www.icynene.com .You can find many more-shop around.Try House show at Punchestown 7-8 april 2006 right place to go!

davidoco

Paulw wrote:

Have you ever seen a place that had nothing to snag???

Back in the good old days of 1999 I had my new house snagged by a quantity surveyor/architect/engineer (I was never quite sure) who hadn't written anything on his snag list after 30 minutes until the builder walked in and pointed out a slight gap in a small piece of skirting (which is still there).

I paid good money and got a good product.