Irish population to grow by a 3rd, immigrants could make up 1 in 5 by 2020

Betsy79

Betsy79 wrote:

i did't seen the other post!

@never ever: don't get me wrong now! i just took eastern europe as an example! there are more nationalities immigrating! that has nothing to do now with just eastern europe!

Yup, there are indeed other nationalities coming into the country. Just as Irish people emmigrated to just about every country on this earth. Wasn't it nice of those countries to allow us in?

but you have to see ... immigration has to stop sometime! Austria let loads of refugees and immigrants in the country and now whe have so many that they having classes in their own language in primary school but austrians don't have english!!! english is a world language and our kids should not learn it from fist class?? but immigrants kids have lessons in their own language??
sorry doesn't make any sense at all for me!!

Funnily enough most of the eastern Europeans I have met, have very good english already. In fact, many have better english than some of the Irish people i know. Strange that many of them can speak 4-5 languages, when we have issues with learning our own language. But then thats not the point is it? After all, we teach other languages in our schools already. Anything that improves Irish peoples ability to interact with other cultures is a good thing, especially since it widens their ability to get a better job...

about the mis up with all the cultures! i'm not guessing .... common sence says that! i've never been for the eu and europe has so many different cultures that we should try to keep them!

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I think the EU has been the best thing to happen to Europe, and remains our only real chance of competing with America and Asia. Ireland has been isolated enough already. I'm glad that people are coming here from abroad, because Irish people need that kick up the ass to improve ourselves.

nothing against people wanting the best for their families .... but

lol. Theres always a but.

people get used! people working in a company for a long time get sacked, cause immigrants will work for less money? that's what it's always been between east and west!! and you know that!!
it's not fair to citizens and not fair to immigrants!!

People let themselves be used. Theres a difference. the law exists to protect people if they're willing to make an effort. Generally the Irish workforce has gotten quite lazy over the last 5 years, and an influx of Immigrants will force them to start working properly again. They've gained alot of employee rights over the last decade, and now need to prove that they're willing to work for them.

Fairness is qorth squat. If someone can do a job, they will be employed. If someone does the job better, they'll get better chances. Simple.

i'm not jelous!i'm a god damn hard worker! i just don't see the point why people should work a bit harder to immigrate in other countries (that includes me!!!!)

You're a good worker. Fine, your job is secured. No need to worry now.

and about when i should relax! i have seen the same thing happening in austria before! it is like history is repeating itself for me.... just in a different country!

Really? Austria's experience with immigration came in the 70's & and early 80's , with a very different source of people. This is a different situation entirely.

blueshirt

riptide wrote:

Wrong. Most English people are of Anglo Saxon heritage. We are a mixed bag of Norman/Scandinavian and central European Celts.

There is no racial difference between Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Viking and central European Celt. A tribal difference yes, but no racial difference. In any case the English are a mixture of celt, Anglo-Saxon, jute, Norman .the Scots and welsh much the same as the Irish.

Betsy79

Deleted User wrote:

Really? Austria's experience with immigration came in the 70's & and early 80's , with a very different source of people. This is a different situation entirely.

if you say so ...

Betsy79

Deleted User wrote:

Funnily enough most of the eastern Europeans I have met, have very good english already. In fact, many have better english than some of the Irish people i know. Strange that many of them can speak 4-5 languages, when we have issues with learning our own language. But then thats not the point is it? After all, we teach other languages in our schools already. Anything that improves Irish peoples ability to interact with other cultures is a good thing, especially since it widens their ability to get a better job...

i think you did't really understand what i was talking about!

Sizzler

If those stats are correct then the odds are 1 in 5 people here will be looking forward to their offspring bringing home a Polish/Romanian/Latvian...or the next Kunle back to your gaff in 2020!

Its gonna happen.

DublinWriter

Betsy79 wrote:

i still don't like it going round vienna or dublin or whereever and hear all different languages except the countries!

What a sickening attitude.

Vive le differance!

Nature thrives only when the gene pool is enriched.

Ein Volk Ein Planet.

janullrich

Typical Dublin writer. Full of crap again. As for Klaz let us get a few points straight.

1. The Irish emigrated mostly to English speaking countries where they did did not need to speak another language and blended for the most part into the country, far more successfully then the Poles etc are attempting to integrate into Ireland.

2. Do they speak good English?? U must have plenty of good education Eastern Europeans where u live because all I get in Blanchardstown is "I don't speak English". A pathetic attitude showing they don't give a toss for the most part.

3. The EU is the most overrated burocratic organisation going. A big monsterous meeting place in Strasbourg or Brussels where they talk lots of hot air. It has admittely done a hell of a lot to help the Irish farmers and I give it that.

4. What a load of crap. U telling me that if there is a minimum wage that you would support a foreign worker getting a job then a Irish one. Well sorry bud but I totally disagree. Irish workers can do just as good job as Poles and Latvians. If we go down that road then we are going to be on the Irish Ferries route again. The government should tighten up because a lot of these workers are getting paid less then the minimum wage for work. Why should a Irish worker do the same. Is that what you mean lazy? I see Irish people in Mc Donalds, on building sites, at shops, doing cleaning. Do you want to tell them that they are lazy????

5. Austria and Denmark for example have it right. They have a permit system which they introduced. It has functioned well for the countries in question and defended the nations workers and allowed in a certain amount of foreign workers EU or otherwise to help out the country. Neither country is doing too badly at present. Pity our government was not as weak on the issue but I guess we will have to get used to it.

w66w66

riptide wrote:

Wrong. Most English people are of Anglo Saxon heritage. We are a mixed bag of Norman/Scandinavian and central European Celts.

Only the south of England is of predominately Anglo Saxon descent.

w66w66

DublinWriter wrote:

Nature thrives only when the gene pool is enriched.
.

If nature thrives it's only because ethnic diversity promotes competition. But that doesn't necessary mean Human society thrives, think Iraq, the Balkans, Rwanda, Palestine and Israel. Ethnic diversity is in fact the single biggest cause of conflict in world, which is great for nature an entity which inherently promotes competitiveness, but a disaster for the humans who have to live with.

Victor

w66w66 wrote:

Ethnic diversity is in fact the single biggest cause of conflict in world

You mean it isn't greed, corruption, deprivation? Artificial borders are a much greater cause of conflict.

Look at Belfast, conflict happened at frontlines between segregated communities, not in mixed areas. Violence happens when one or other side can clearly say "if I attack that person, he will be from the other tribe".

w66w66

Victor wrote:

You mean it isn't greed, corruption, deprivation? Artificial borders are a much greater cause of conflict.

Look at Belfast, conflict happened at frontlines between segregated communities, not in mixed areas. Violence happens when one or other side can clearly say "if I attack that person, he will be from the other tribe".

Artificial boarders exactly. When nations form organically they form along mono ethnic and cultural lines. Artificial states on the other hand often incorporate two or more ethnic groups, and that’s generally way the vast majority have failed and they failed primarily because of ethnic conflict.

As for greed and corruption causing wars, I never suggested ethnicity was only cause of conflict, I said it was the main cause of conflict in the world.

Victor

Sorry, you missed the point completely. Mixed areas do not have violence. Segregating people creates the impression that they can engage in inappropriate behavior and then retreat to their safe haven.

w66w66

Baghdad has mixed areas.

Victor

You mean like the Mansour district or the green zone?

I don't see the residents of either of those getting uppity with their next door neighbours.

w66w66

the Dora neighbourhood.

Victor

Its an interface area, not mixed.

w66w66

hundreds of thousands sunnis and ****es living in extremely close promixity to each other, sounds mixed to me.

johny28

Interesting to see people from Baghdad on boards

fly_agaric

Victor wrote:

Look at Belfast, conflict happened at frontlines between segregated communities, not in mixed areas. Violence happens when one or other side can clearly say "if I attack that person, he will be from the other tribe".

"Conflict" happened over the discrimination of one group in NI, the conflict created fear, and that in turn generated much of the segregation.
The segregation there is at least partly a result of the conflict - a result that makes it harder to fix things.

See Bosnia for an example of what was quite a mixed kind of place that segregated into tribes in the blink of an eye when the proverbial hit the fan (Milosevic's nationalism + resuting wars) and has remained that way since then due to fear and mistrust.

IMO, the potential for interethnic or communal strife is always present in a very mixed society (where one grouping doesn't have a very strong majority) and just needs the right/wrong set of circumstances to set it off.

Ireland is no exception. We are doing a very good job at present but with the level of immigration we have occurring over such a short timescale it is bound to turn to shít at sometime in the future. It's completely unavoidable IMO. Only a question of when and how bad it will be (lowlevel tensions like the US at the moment say or pretty bad communal violence such as that which breaks out in India from time to time).

Anyway, you and anyone else who wants to can now commence with the personal attacks and cries of racist etc.

DublinWriter

janullrich wrote:

Typical Dublin writer. Full of crap again. As for Klaz let us get a few points straight.

Attack the post, not the poster!

janullrich wrote:

1. The Irish ... blended for the most part into the country, far more successfully then the Poles etc are attempting to integrate into Ireland.

Blended according to who? The Irish in the UK and the States stuck to themselves and their own areas such as Kilburn and districts of NYC and Boston. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "No blacks no dogs no Irish"?

janullrich wrote:

2. Do they speak good English?? U must have plenty of good education Eastern Europeans where u live because all I get in Blanchardstown is "I don't speak English". A pathetic attitude showing they don't give a toss for the most part.

Of course they speak good English, they would have had to do an interview and/or complete a questionaire for the job. Maybe they just don't want to talk to you?

janullrich wrote:

4. What a load of crap. U telling me that if there is a minimum wage that you would support a foreign worker getting a job then a Irish one. Well sorry bud but I totally disagree. Irish workers can do just as good job as Poles and Latvians.

Well that's where most people, including Irish people, will disagree with you.

But how ironic it is that we've been exporting labour for over 150 years and been getting so much funding from the EU, yet when a handful of Eastern Europeans come here to do the low paid jobs that we don't want to do *AND* not have any entitlements to social welfare we end up whinging about it and throwing our hands in the air.

janullrich

janullrich wrote:

Typical Dublin writer. Full of crap again. As for Klaz let us get a few points straight.

Okies. Lets discuss your points

1. The Irish emigrated mostly to English speaking countries where they did did not need to speak another language and blended for the most part into the country, far more successfully then the Poles etc are attempting to integrate into Ireland.

Interesting. How long have the Poles been attempting to integrate into Irish society? Personally i don't think people have given them much time, before threads like these start complaining. But they are immigrating to a country that speaks a different language, so some leeway should be given. At least until they've had some chance to learn the language, if they don't already.

The common emmigration points for the Irish were the US, the UK, and Australia. Those countries have kinda had their fill of immigration, and probably have the same bans on Eastern europeans as they did 20 years ago.

2. Do they speak good English?? U must have plenty of good education Eastern Europeans where u live because all I get in Blanchardstown is "I don't speak English". A pathetic attitude showing they don't give a toss for the most part.

Okies. I have 4 Polish groups of tenants in the sane block of townhouses I live in. I've met them all, since I got to know the neighbours on either side of my townhouse. The majority had quite good english, while there were a few who had broken english. However, all of them could get their points across easily, and all it took was a little patience from me. I don't expect them to be fluent from the start.

Its interesting to note that the majority of the Poles that live beside me are professionals. They're not unskilled labour.

3. The EU is the most overrated burocratic organisation going. A big monsterous meeting place in Strasbourg or Brussels where they talk lots of hot air. It has admittely done a hell of a lot to help the Irish farmers and I give it that.

Just the farmers? hmmm.... so you don't appreciate the money poured into our infrastructure... something we all use. But then I suppose thats a few years back and easy to forget/dismiss.

4. What a load of crap. U telling me that if there is a minimum wage that you would support a foreign worker getting a job then a Irish one. Well sorry bud but I totally disagree. Irish workers can do just as good job as Poles and Latvians. If we go down that road then we are going to be on the Irish Ferries route again. The government should tighten up because a lot of these workers are getting paid less then the minimum wage for work. Why should a Irish worker do the same. Is that what you mean lazy? I see Irish people in Mc Donalds, on building sites, at shops, doing cleaning. Do you want to tell them that they are lazy????

Its very rare that I see Irish people working in the low end/low paying jobs. Mostly I find eastern europeans, and foreign students working there. Most Irish I've found, consider such jobs to be beneath them, and consider them only suitable for the immigrants.

As for laziness, there are plenty of Irish people who work very hard. However there is an expectation from people that they have a right to a job regardless of their ability to do the job. We've seen time and time again where the unions have pushed for reform or strikes where frankly it isn't needed. Case in point, is An Post.

5. Austria and Denmark for example have it right. They have a permit system which they introduced. It has functioned well for the countries in question and defended the nations workers and allowed in a certain amount of foreign workers EU or otherwise to help out the country. Neither country is doing too badly at present. Pity our government was not as weak on the issue but I guess we will have to get used to it.

Sure we will. And as a time goes by a bit, restrictions will be placed. But at the moment there are more jobs than people available. I'd prefer to see those jobs filled. Then, restrict immigration.

janullrich

Sorry folks, have been away and not around to discuss this! However it is a good chance tonite. Points taken Klaz. I have gone out with a Lithunian and a good friend of mine at work is Polish. I have no problem there but totally disagree that the majority of Poles coming over are professional. You only have to look at Abbey Street anytime and you will see the amount of labourers getting off the buses. As I said there are too many of them and this is affecting the property market and will lead to problems in years ahead as Germany has experienced with the Turks. You cannot say that the majority of these speak any English and from their attitude do not care about it either. There does not need to be any interviews. If a friends gets another to work for them they will do it for 5 euros or less. A Irish person would cost more but then again this is where we have got to stop this race to the bottom. If employers get away with this if the economy gets bad then we will have a probem. It will be too late for restrictions unless of course the Polish and Lithunian economys take a upturn. (It will happen eventually) The UK has a similar problem to ourselves and there is open discussion of what is going on there.

Sorry everyone is entitled to their opinion but the EU to me is one big burocratic waste of money. Our motorways may be improving but our sideroads are in dire need of resurfacing. The EU ain't going to help there!

I do not think we have a big problem either with strikes, compared to Germany. We are learning that strikes are not effective

janullrich

janullrich wrote:

I have no problem there but totally disagree that the majority of Poles coming over are professional. You only have to look at Abbey Street anytime and you will see the amount of labourers getting off the buses.

I never said that all the polish coming over here were professionals. I just highlighted that the ones living beside me were. I've been to three of their house-parties, and there was a wide range of professions being occupied, from working in small shops, some of the factories and also those in the construction industry. Most said that they were over qualified for the jobs they had here, but i dont know if that was true or not. I'm sure in some cases it was. Still all in all, they were all happy to have the opportunity to work.

As I said there are too many of them and this is affecting the property market and will lead to problems in years ahead as Germany has experienced with the Turks.

The difference being that in Germany the cities have a huge number of apartments as opposed to the housing we have here. Therefore the concentrations of Poles in Ireland won't be like that of Germany. I've seen German cities, having lived just outside of Frankfurt, and I've seen the way that the arabs live there. Its a different situation, with a completely different people. The Arab culture (in part due to their religious beliefs) encourages that they remain apart from the society whereas the Polish don't have that to keep them apart from society.

You cannot say that the majority of these speak any English and from their attitude do not care about it either.

I've said that the majority that I've met have been able to hold a conversation in English. Whereas you say the majority you've met, don't. I don't actually know if the majority of immigrants coming into this country can speak English. Do you know for certain?

There does not need to be any interviews. If a friends gets another to work for them they will do it for 5 euros or less. A Irish person would cost more but then again this is where we have got to stop this race to the bottom. If employers get away with this if the economy gets bad then we will have a probem.

As legal immigrants they're entitled to the legal minimum. The have the same legal rights as we do. Sure some polish will accept such offers from employers, but they won't last long. The cost of living in Ireland guarantees that people won't be able to survive for long on those kind of wages, and will need to find proper jobs. You're forgetting that they've come here, because they can be paid more here than at home. If after accomadation and living expenses, they don't have anything to send home, they won't be putting up with such standards for long.

Its funny, but I was watching the RTE news tonight, and they had a report about the immigrants. The said that the majority of immigrants were only staying in Ireland 6 months-1 year, purely with the intention of earning some money to send home. Hardly the scary position where thousands are coming to steal our jobs.

But even that aside. People are employed for their skills. If Irish people have better skills & better education they'll have no problems getting jobs. You're looking at the job market which has more jobs available than people, and saying that we will have a problem. Why? This seems to be more paranoia, than an actual concern.

But I'll provide an example. I own a townhouse, which is only partially finished. Just about everything costs a grand to do. I got a small "walk in wardrobe" fitted, and it cost me 1300 euro to do. Wasn't partially good workmanship, and they didn't clean up after themselves. Then I got in another crowd, recommended by a neighbour, who installed a similiar setup in another room. they cost me 670 euro, did a better job, and cleaned up the whole area. Can you guess who were Irish and who were polish?

I'm all for employing irish people to do work for me. But I'm getting tired of being ripped off for low standard work, when I can get good service at half the cost. Is it any wonder that the Polish are getting jobs, when they perform a better service, without ripping us off?

It will be too late for restrictions unless of course the Polish and Lithunian economys take a upturn. (It will happen eventually) The UK has a similar problem to ourselves and there is open discussion of what is going on there.

Nope. Don't see it. Everybody keeps making comparisons with Austria, UK, Germany etc. Those countries suffered immigration from a very different time, and a very different people. Alot has changed in the last 30 years, and people have changed with it. Perhaps give the Eastern Europeans a chance before you label them in the same boat as the Arabs that swarmed Germany...

The simple fact is that the majority of the problems that these countries are facing are those with different religious beliefs. Beliefs that encourage them to dress, and behave differently that the rest of society. Hell, their cultures encourage them to stay apart from mainstream society, and keep to themselves. This encourages friction and has caused many of the problems that we see nowadays in Germany, and the UK.

The Eastern Europeans don't have those religious differences. They don't have a reason to remain apart from us. How much trouble has the UK received from the Asian community (Japanese, Chinese, Korean etc) who are more insular than the Polish, and yet don't seem to cause any trouble at all..........

Sorry everyone is entitled to their opinion but the EU to me is one big burocratic waste of money. Our motorways may be improving but our sideroads are in dire need of resurfacing. The EU ain't going to help there!

Why should it help us there? Can't we do it ourselves? The EC/Eu catapulted us into the 21st century with the money to build proper main roads. We have a vibrant economy (somewhat false, but quite rich all the same), and a skilled population. Why can't we stop looking for aid and help ourselves, without looking for handouts. We got the bargain from the EU. We enjoyed it quite a bit. Now that its gone, you want more? Jesus:rolleyes: .

I do not think we have a big problem either with strikes, compared to Germany. We are learning that strikes are not effective

Do you really believe that? Cause I don't. Irish Unions strike at the drop of the hat. They look for benefits that have no right to, and argue over the very reason that people are employed. This society has started to think that they have a Right to a job, rather than working to gain one. In many ways, unions seem to think the employees own the company, not the people who set them up in the first place.

And you're suprised that employers are welcoming immigrants that are grateful to have a job? Many Irish people seem to take it for granted, forgetting the 60's and 70's the unemployment that covered Ireland.

New_Departure06

PullMyFinger! wrote:

Looks like the housing market is safe then eh? Comments?

No it is not safe. This extra demand pushes up house prices. Eventually this will cause a dramatic fall off in Irish demand due to unaffordability. Equals house price crash. Also I don't want Irish people to be a minority in their own country. Earth to Dail Eireann...Listen to the ppl! :mad:

Its funny, but I was watching the RTE news tonight, and they had a report about the immigrants. The said that the majority of immigrants were only staying in Ireland 6 months-1 year, purely with the intention of earning some money to send home. Hardly the scary position where thousands are coming to steal our jobs.

No that's what the IBEC woman said. And she did not use the words "the majority" or anything meaning that.

Some here I see may scoff at what Betsy79 said but she is not being hypocritical. She comes from a fellow rich Western country. Irish people don't really mind that sort of immigration because it isn't large-scale unless people have Irish ancestory. And in any case it is nowhere nearly as high as the roughly 100,000 per annum that have come here since EU Enlargement. Let's compare like with like.

For Irish politicians, multiculturalism is a sacred-cow which must at all costs not be questioned. This has to end. Democracy demands everyone have their say, no matter what we think of their opinions. We are not children who need to have a paternalistic state tell us what our political views should or should not be. We had such a state try to tell us what our religion should be for hundreds of years so we're not taking any of that!

In the town where I live in Leinster, it is becoming increasingly difficult to come across Irish people. Loads of people are talking foreign languages. Some here have said that in others ghettoisation formed because of religious differences and that the Eastern Europeans tend to be Catholic so they wouldn't have a reason to keep apart from us. Well wouldn't the language barrier be a reason?

Hobbes

New_Departure06 wrote:

No it is not safe. This extra demand pushes up house prices. Eventually this will cause a dramatic fall off in Irish demand due to unaffordability. Equals house price crash. Also I don't want Irish people to be a minority in their own country. Earth to Dail Eireann...Listen to the ppl! :mad:

Minority in thier own country? Read the topic. Even by 2020 they won't be the minority.

Incidently there was a report done in the EU (didn't catch its name, was on the news this morning). They found that countries that had opened its borders to the new EU countries actually did better then those still have the borders closed for workers to migrate. Ireland being cited as one of them (UK + Sweden also).

They also found that the worker migration actually increased the job markets in those countries.

New_Departure06

Hobbes wrote:

Minority in thier own country? Read the topic. Even by 2020 they won't be the minority.

Incidently there was a report done in the EU (didn't catch its name, was on the news this morning). They found that countries that had opened its borders to the new EU countries actually did better then those still have the borders closed for workers to migrate. Ireland being cited as one of them (UK + Sweden also).

They also found that the worker migration actually increased the job markets in those countries.

These countries were already doing better before they opened their borders. I understand it was an EU Commission report that made these claims. It conveniently tucked away into the undergrowth of the report that the influx had been much higher in Ireland pro rata.

Minority in thier own country? Read the topic. Even by 2020 they won't be the minority.

Having looked at the study in more detail, I question the assumptions upon which that claim is based. It is based on the assumption that annual immigration will slow to 25,000 after 2011. I assume they base this claim on the EU rules requiring all restrictions on the new EU states to end by then. It probably is true that when Germany, Austria, France, Italy etc. remove their controls that fewer will come here, but with the govt ranting on about the 'need' for 50,000 migrants a year (other sources from business or the media talk of 25,000-30,000 which is it?), I suspect that the non-EU work-permit will be used to make up for such a reduction. It seem we are always going to need 50,000 a year if we are to believe what some are telling us. With the best of intentions of course. No vested interests directing any of them. Oh no.

In a recent interview Bertie Ahern told a newspaper (the Tribune I think) that he accepted that if the current inflow were to continue at this rate for another 25 years there would be "problems" but that it wouldn't continue at that rate. Well how does he know when he will likely not be Taoiseach by then? He admitted that Turkish EU membership would cause "problems". Great. It sure will. Thank gawd for the French and their constitutional changes requiring a referendum on Turkish membership. It's a sad day when we have to rely on other countries to do what our govt should do and listen to their electorates instead of treating them like children to be scolded if they speak out of line.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote:

Its interesting to note that the majority of the Poles that live beside me are professionals. They're not unskilled labour.

This surely cant be right, poles are only here to fill the menial jobs that us irish *spits* are now too spoilt to do. They can't possibly be here to undercut sean soap's wage's in the professional sector :rolleyes:

Hobbes

I suppose the easy way is just to give everyone with a work permit Irish citizenship. That way the Irish will never be the minority.

In a recent interview Bertie Ahern told a newspaper (the Tribune I think) that he accepted that if the current inflow were to continue at this rate for another 25 years there would be "problems" but that it wouldn't continue at that rate.

What problems exactly? The real problem is infrastructure. Ireland just can't handle large numbers of people because we are still stuck in everyone wanting a 3 bedroom house with front garden while being close to work mentality.

Tha Gopher

I think most young people here will agree that trying to get a menial 8 euro per hour job is actually pretty hard work nowadays. Thankfully Ive dropped out of college and got myself a real job, but back last year I was searching for work for months before I finally got work in one of the fast food joints. Same story with my mate, hes in college, he spent about 2 months looking for work recently before finally getting a job stacking shelves in Dunnes. When he sees migrants who are in the country 5 minutes get work before him you can see his point. Also, it would appear that certain foreign managed chain stores/restaurents have a policy of only employing people from their own country. There are certain places I can think of where at least 60- 70% of the workforce seems to be from the same country as the store manager. My local shop. Good few local takeaways. Discrimination isnt always against the minority.

Hobbes wrote:

What problems exactly? The real problem is infrastructure. Ireland just can't handle large numbers of people because we are still stuck in everyone wanting a 3 bedroom house with front garden while being close to work mentality.

Good god, Irish people want a comfortable home close to work for a reasonable price seeing as this has been what they have been used to until the last 8 or so years.
Shame on them

tbh Im skeptical as to whether the prices will ever come down. People have been predicting that the crash is coming early next year since at least the year 2000.

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

I suppose the easy way is just to give everyone with a work permit Irish citizenship. That way the Irish will never be the minority.

:eek:
Hobbes, the song "Imagine" is just a daydream. If you are > 20 you should realise this by now.

Hobbes wrote:

What problems exactly?

Do you really think it would be a good thing for Ireland to maintain its current immigration rate for the next quarter century?
I bet you were a bit of a firebug as a child and still have a love for chaos...:D

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

No it is not safe. This extra demand pushes up house prices. Eventually this will cause a dramatic fall off in Irish demand due to unaffordability. Equals house price crash. Also I don't want Irish people to be a minority in their own country. Earth to Dail Eireann...Listen to the ppl!

Where are you getting this from? The majority of Polish immigrants wouldn't have the money available to them to purchase a home here in Ireland. As it is it took me 5 years and one previous house sale before I could afford a comfortable home. The Polish are renting rooms/houses. They're not buying the properties, with only a few exceptions.

As it is the Rental market in Cork at least is dropping. I welcome the immigrants because now at least there's a chance that I can rent my rooms, with the ability of making a slight profit over my mortgage and housing expenses. Stop scare-mongering.

And Dail Eireann, have failed to listen to the people for Decades, so why should they start now.

No that's what the IBEC woman said. And she did not use the words "the majority" or anything meaning that.

So you have the transcript of what she said? Lovely.

In the town where I live in Leinster, it is becoming increasingly difficult to come across Irish people. Loads of people are talking foreign languages. Some here have said that in others ghettoisation formed because of religious differences and that the Eastern Europeans tend to be Catholic so they wouldn't have a reason to keep apart from us. Well wouldn't the language barrier be a reason?

Perhaps the Irish people are leaving your area due to rising house prices, and the general cost of living? That could be the reason. Still, What town/city are you talking about?

As for the language barrier, you might not have noticed that many Eastern Europeans have received basic education in English. While some have said that they're coming over here without english, they'll still have to learn the language eventually just to survive. Our media is in English, our road signs are in English/Irish, our laws are in English/irish, etc. They'll have to learn enough to survive. And even then they won't be excluded from our society unless we exclude them ourselves.

These countries were already doing better before they opened their borders. I understand it was an EU Commission report that made these claims. It conveniently tucked away into the undergrowth of the report that the influx had been much higher in Ireland pro rata.

You wouldn't happen to have a linky to this report? I'd love to take a look at it myself.

Tha Gopher wrote:

When he sees migrants who are in the country 5 minutes get work before him you can see his point.

Well, why is it that a Polish person is more likely to get a job with, say, in Dunnes Stores than an irish person?

Also, it would appear that certain foreign managed chain stores/restaurents have a policy of only employing people from their own country. There are certain places I can think of where at least 60- 70% of the workforce seems to be from the same country as the store manager. My local shop. Good few local takeaways. Discrimination isnt always against the minority.

So? Just the same, I know a number of indian restaurants that have irish people working for them. And other places that don't. Do they have an active policy against irish people, or is it perhaps that Irish people don't have the necessary skills for the job? I don't actually know.

But if I go for an Indian, I don't want to be served by an Irish person. Thats part of the charm of having an sit-down Indian meal. Know what I'm getting at?

But I'm sure there's a fair number of Irish employers who won't hire foreign nationals, for the same reasons you've put forward about foreign business owners. It tends to balance out in the end.

Good god, Irish people want a comfortable home close to work for a reasonable price seeing as this has been what they have been used to until the last 8 or so years.
Shame on them

irish people want alot of things. We don't necessarily deserve them. We're all responsible for the way the economy, and the housing industry has gone.

New_Departure06

As for the language barrier, you might not have noticed that many Eastern Europeans have received basic education in English. While some have said that they're coming over here without english, they'll still have to learn the language eventually just to survive. Our media is in English, our road signs are in English/Irish, our laws are in English/irish, etc. They'll have to learn enough to survive. And even then they won't be excluded from our society unless we exclude them ourselves.

But if they become the majority then the imperative to learn English is going to be far smaller. They would control the Dail in elections, and make Polish an official language. Do you want that?

You wouldn't happen to have a linky to this report? I'd love to take a look at it myself.

What I mean is that the EU Commission report claimed that these 3 countries are now doing better because of letting people in from the new EU states. Now bear in mind that the Commissioner in charge of this report is Vladimir Spidla, the Employment Commissioner, from the Czech Republic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1705656,00.html So he would say that wouldn't he? Also, you KNOW that Ireland has been performing strongly for the past 10 years and we didn't have the same rate of immigration back then as we have had since EU Enlargement. In my mind that makes it hard to argue that we 'need' these people.

Victor

New_Departure06 wrote:

No it is not safe. This extra demand pushes up house prices.

Yes, but these Polish building workers are building houses to help with supply!

Ponster

Deleted User wrote:

You suggest that I move to another country. I probably will. I can't see any benefit to living here anymore. And I hope to God, that the people of the country I move to are alot more friendly than some of the responses Irish people have to these immigrants. But there's hope. I do see the possibility that Irish people will accept these people, and will allow these people to share their lives. And if that happens then at least I'll have found something to be proud of about Irish people.

I felt that way once before and still do. So I moved to France, not far, but enough all the same. Twice since then I've tried to move back home. I miss the crisps and the craic and the rain and the Irishness of it all.
Unfortunatly each time, within the space of a week, I was confronted with disgusting racism from people that I know weren't racist, at least when I left, and so ended back in Paris again.

I'd still like to go back someday...

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

But if they become the majority then the imperative to learn English is going to be far smaller. They would control the Dail in elections, and make Polish an official language. Do you want that?

Have you read through what you've written and thought about the logic of it? If in twenty years time they've gained a majority, then learning English won't be as important? But during those twenty years, the previous immigrants will have had to learn english to operate within Ireland.

Its like the Irish, Polish, Czech etc that immigrated to the US. Many of them have retained the ability to speak the languages of their birth place, and yet they're all fluent at speaking english aswell. I know a number of people who live in different countries across europe including Germany, Spain, France etc. They can speak both English and the common spoken language of the country they live in [Their children are being raised with both languages, and in some cases more than two]. I seriously doubt it will be any different with the Easterners moving to Ireland. They're likely to have both English and the language of their original country.

Also, you KNOW that Ireland has been performing strongly for the past 10 years and we didn't have the same rate of immigration back then as we have had since EU Enlargement. In my mind that makes it hard to argue that we 'need' these people.

Actually I view Irelands economy doing well due to the level of investment that came from EU admission, moreso than anything the Irish have actually done themselves..............

As things stand, without the immigrants coming into the country, we have more jobs than people. We have a very small population for a country our size, and to remain competitive and to keep our economy going we need those positions to be filled. As it is Irish people have gradually become more snobby about the type of jobs they wish to apply for, and as such the numbers of people looking to work in essential but "nasty" (Bin collection, Rubbish clearing, Road works, small shops, cafeteria's etc) is dropping.

And thus we have the immigrants coming into the country filling those jobs. In some cases, they're jobs that Irish people don't want anymore, and in other cases they're jobs that Irish people do indeed try to get.

But I'll admit that I'm not approving of the immigrants from this aspect. Personally, I believe that many Irish people have gotten quite lazy in work, and they seem to take for granted the jobs that they receive. The immigrants bring with them some competition for jobs, and make irish people more appreciative of the positions they receive.

Added to this a larger population & a wider selection of services to choose from may have the effect of actually lowering the cost of living in Ireland. Considering thats been increasingly the reason why I'm looking to move abroad, I'm all for such a chance. We need these people because Irish business charge too much as it is. A little competition will generate some lowering in costs for all of us.
___________________

And frankly I'm amazed at the lack of support to give these immigrants the chance before they try to block immigration. This is putting the cart before the horse. We haven't given the Polish & other easterners much time to adapt to our society (which is very different in many ways to theirs), we haven't given them much time to learn English, and so far all I've seen is loads of paranoia about us becoming a minority in our own country. Taking something that MIGHT happen in roughly twenty years time, and saying that its coming into effect now.

Don't you think you're jumping the gun? Give them a chance. You and other posters are likely be the first to complain if other countries hadn't given the Irish the chance to settle before deciding to block their immigration....

New_Departure06

But the rate of East European immigration to Ireland is pro rata among the highest in the world. You cannot compare emigration from a country of 3.5 million (at the time) with emigration from a country of 40 million like Poland. We do not know exactly how many Eastern Europeans are here. The official figures say that 200,000 PPS no.s were issued. However, this relates to legal employment, and does not tell us how many dependents they brought with them, nor how many are working illegally due to a wish not to pay tax and a willingness to work for less. The recent AIB report suggested only 65,000 are working here legally. Again it tells us nothing about the numbers in the underground economy.

Watch the Census closely. We will get preliminary info around June or July of the gross numbers in the country. We will likely have to wait until 2007 before we know the non-national numbers (in so far as we can know). Then maybe you will change your mind.

---

Frankly I'm amazed at how some people can be so disparaging towards their own nation vis a vis others. The US is different as a destination for migrants as the vast majority of its people are descended from Europeans and others who were not the indigenous population. The TCD studies indicate this is not the case in Ireland: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1086049&issue_id=10105
http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm

Watch the Census closely. We will get preliminary info around June or July of the gross numbers in the country. We will likely have to wait until 2007 before we know the non-national numbers (in so far as we can know). Then maybe you will change your mind.

Will do. I'm quite curious about the whole area. As for changing my mind, I doubt it. I'm not worried about the numbers coming in. I'm not worried about them remaining apart from our society. I'm not worried about them taking my job.

Frankly I'm amazed at how some people can be so disparaging towards their own nation vis a vis others. The US is different as a destination for migrants as the vast majority of its people are descended from Europeans and others who were not the indigenous population. The TCD studies indicate this is not the case in Ireland: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=10105
http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm

Sorry I don't actually get your point. You're amazed that some people are unhappy with the state of Ireland, and consider that some other countries are better options to live in?

New_Departure06

Sorry I don't actually get your point. You're amazed that some people are unhappy with the state of Ireland, and consider that some other countries are better options to live in?

No. What I am talking about is the romanticisation of newcomers to this country as being "hard-working" while the Irish are "lazy". I resent this.

Resent away. Immigrants tend to have more to prove at least initially especially since they will need time & money to adapt to the expensive cost of living we have. Whereas irish people are used to the cost of living, and in many cases try quite successfully to ignore it.

But I've never said that all irish people are lazy. Or that all immigrants are hard working. I've just said that the increased population in Ireland will generate more competition for jobs in ireland, therefore increasing the gratitude that employees will have for their jobs. Too often I feel that many irish people take having a job for granted, and count it as a right, rather than something they need to work for.

Tha Gopher

Deleted User wrote:

Well, why is it that a Polish person is more likely to get a job with, say, in Dunnes Stores than an irish person?



So? Just the same, I know a number of indian restaurants that have irish people working for them. And other places that don't. Do they have an active policy against irish people, or is it perhaps that Irish people don't have the necessary skills for the job? I don't actually know.

But if I go for an Indian, I don't want to be served by an Irish person. Thats part of the charm of having an sit-down Indian meal. Know what I'm getting at?

But I'm sure there's a fair number of Irish employers who won't hire foreign nationals, for the same reasons you've put forward about foreign business owners. It tends to balance out in the end.



irish people want alot of things. We don't necessarily deserve them. We're all responsible for the way the economy, and the housing industry has gone.

How the fcuk is the average joe on the street responsible for the house price crisis? Oh yes, Im responsible for it, seeing as while the housing market was starting to spiral out of control I was between the age of 11 to 15. The only people responsible are idiots who voted FF in again.

As for the whole class/education thing, I think it depends on the environment you work in who you meet. I know middle/upper class Poles who went to university and like American **** rock. I also know Poles whos main pastimes include stealing, fighting and taking/selling yokes all day whilst blaring out rap and dance tunes from their whacked out 1987 beamer. Alot like the Irish really, you meet all sorts.

New_Departure06

Thought the men and women of 1916 declared an "Irish Republic", not a "Polish Republic". We are losing our identity.

New_Departure06

How the fcuk is the average joe on the street responsible for the house price crisis? Oh yes, Im responsible for it, seeing as while the housing market was starting to spiral out of control I was between the age of 11 to 15. The only people responsible are idiots who voted FF in again.

We're responsible because we're all citizens of this country, and all of us can influence the way that the country is operated. Added to this, we have the ability to influence the types of properties being built (i.e. most being single/terraced style housing as opposed to apartments) We're also all responsible for allowing the cost of living to accelerate, which in turn has upped the prices of housing developments.

But go ahead and pass the buck. You're not responsible for the state of the nation in any shape or form. :rolleyes:

New_Departure06 wrote:

Thought the men and women of 1916 declared an "Irish Republic", not a "Polish Republic". We are losing our identity.

What identity would that be? The country that immigrated to other countries for decades, or the rebellious people against British tyranny? cause thats the only identity I can think of.

New_Departure06

What identity would that be? The country that immigrated to other countries for decades, or the rebellious people against British tyranny? cause thats the only identity I can think of.

It's about our majority Gaelic nationalist ancestory and those assimilated into that identity.

Hobbes

New_Departure06 wrote:

Now bear in mind that the Commissioner in charge of this report is Vladimir Spidla, the Employment Commissioner, from the Czech Republic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1705656,00.html So he would say that wouldn't he?

Riiighht. Because we all know EU ministers just make **** up in official reports. :rolleyes:

Thought the men and women of 1916 declared an "Irish Republic", not a "Polish Republic". We are losing our identity.

Polish Embassey estimates are at 40,000 Polish people in Ireland. Not everyone has to register though so the figure is expected to be higher but not much higher.

Even if we say took to be 100,000 (over x2 estimated figures) they would be 2.5% of the population of Ireland (roughly).

I wouldn't crack out the Learn to Speak Polish books just yet.

Hobbes

here is a cartoon that best explains immigration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

New_Departure06

Hobbes wrote:

here is a cartoon that best explains immigration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

LOL.

It says at the end "And so the Indian lived at peace with the White man forever".

LOL

Gurgle

New_Departure06 wrote:

It says at the end "And so the Indian lived at peace with the White man forever".

Just out of interest, who were you posting as between when you gave up Arcadegame2004 in feb last year and when you went for a NewDeparture last month?

New_Departure06

Gurgle wrote:

Just out of interest, who were you posting as between when you gave up Arcadegame2004 in feb last year and when you went for a NewDeparture last month?

This is my first username. I can't speak for others living in the house.

Victor

New_Departure06 wrote:

Thought the men and women of 1916 declared an "Irish Republic", not a "Polish Republic". We are losing our identity.

You will be glad to know then that there is a Polish copy of the declaration outside the Sugar Club on Leeson Street.

munkeehaven

I hate **** and pakis but chinks are quite funny.

is he allowed to spout this kind of ignorant garbage?