Political Correctness: is it just a modern myth?

Snickers Man

We hear an awful lot of bollox nowadays about the supposed tyranny of the politically correct:
How you can be sued if you call somebody an Irish C-Word instead of just a C-word;
how you must say Happy Holidays to an American instead of Happy Christmas;
how you must now say African American instead of black person;
how the words blind, deaf and dumb are being replaced by visually impaired, hard of hearing and having learning difficulties.

But how much of it is a resentment of good old fashioned manners blown up into the realms of myth by a generation of rabid journalists for whom the business of news reporting has been replaced by the race to the bottom that is modern opinion based media celebrity?

Where is the hard evidence for any of this? Apart from equality legislation which says that you can no longer discriminate against people based on age, sex, religion, ethnicity etc where are the edicts from on high that say you can no longer say black or brown when referring to people's skin colour?

Have a look at this lengthy threadfrom the After Hours forum. 'Nursery bans Baa Baa Black sheep' it screams. 'How mad is that, Ted?'

Well it would be mad if it was true but it isn't. It's a lie and a very old one at that. Didn't prevent a whole raft of Boardssters from venting their spleen about how silly the world has become.

Most of what I hear (I would like to say all but I can't really be sure) about political correctness comes from just such histrionic muppetry as this. A man I know says his sister's boyfriend met a fella in the pub who told him.....etc

In my long working career I can remember only one set of instructions from professional superiors which suggested phrasing things in a certain way and these were nor orders, they were merely suggestions. They were the National Union of Journalist's guidelines against sexism in reporting.

In a bid to avoid stereotyping they wanted to remove the assumption that all engineers were men, say, and that all secretaries were women by promoting gender neutrality in copy. To avoid over use of the cumbersome 'his or her' phrase they suggested wherever possible making references to jobs in the plural. So an engineer doesn't use 'his spanner' or 'his or her spanner' rather, 'engineers' use 'their spanners'. To give just a simple example.

Oohh how terribly intrusive is that? It;s the end of civilisation as we know it.

Anything else has always been hearsay.

I have never met a black person who insisted on being called African Irish or AFrican English or whatever.

I know deaf people but have never met one who corrected my use of the word deaf.

I have never met an American who objected to being wished Happy Christmas.

I have met lots of pants wetting wierdos who claim that such restrictions exist and how terrible it is and wasn't it great back in the old days when we could say ****, wops and spics on the television.

But that's it.

So next time somebody says that a loony left council in Britain wants to change the name of the central european country from Germany to Gerpersony to avoid sexism, just say to them: 'Well I don't believe you and as you are so opposed to any notion of good manners or removing presumptuous phrases from speech you won't mind if I call you a gullible retard with the brain of a spasticated Pygmie who is so full of venom and devoid of original thought that you have to be motivated to anger by believing some ****e like a two year old would know is complete cobblers.'

Or words to that effect.

metrovelvet

At first I thought the African American phrase was annoyingly precious but it makes sense to me, as they wanted a cultural and not a racial identifier. Black refers to anyone, african, english, south american who has black skin but African Americans were left out of the loop of Irish American, Italian Americans, etc that it makes sense that there is something to acknowledge their heritage.

Some PC stuff is so OTT that its comical. Like a group of women who call themselves GYNEs and not WOMEN because etymologically women means "wife of man" therby reinforcing the definition of woman as a particularised extention of the heterosexual male. But come on. Get a thicker skin. Its just a ****ing word. Saying that I like the inclusiveness of his or her and s/he.

There are a lot of american who object to happy christmas or bless you when you sneeze.

PC had a good intention to take the hate/exclusion out of language but its turned into a facism imo.

Snickers Man

metrovelvet wrote:

Some PC stuff is so OTT that its comical. Like a group of women who call themselves GYNEs and not WOMEN because etymologically women means "wife of man"

Yeah but my point is, do such people really exist, and have you actually met one? I haven't. There is no shortage of examples of PC craziness but I only ever hear about it from people who are quick to slag it off. I have NEVER heard a woman insist to me that she wanted to be called a gyne. Nor have I ever met anybody who espouses that point of view or defends it.

All I hear is people who hate such ideas telling me about the latest PC outrage. Which leads me to conclude that it's all a myth.

There are a lot of american who object to happy christmas or bless you when you sneeze.

Again, I've never met one.

PC had a good intention to take the hate/exclusion out of language

All it means is good manners. That's it.

mike65

Happy fvcking Hollidays is PC maddess to me. PC is rife in the States at an offical and media level. In the UK the Nativity Play at junior school is starting to die out as its deemed to mono cultural - not by Seiks or Musilins but by the numbskulls who run local education authorities and councilers.

Snickers Man my niece is being taught that new version of Baa Baa Black Sheep so its not a myth quite why you thought it was beats me.

Mike.

SeanW

Oh my goodness :eek:that is insane!

SteveS

metrovelvet wrote:

There are a lot of american who object to happy christmas or bless you when you sneeze.

I have never met one either. The whole Christmas/Holidays thing has gotten out of control. Honestly, I could care less whether the clerk at Wal-Mart says merry Christmas, happy Chanukkah (sp.?), or happy holiday. I went to public university in the late 80's and early 90's. During that time, the university would put up lights and decorations around the early part of December. They were pretty basic, mostly "Merry Christmas," with a few pictures of Santa. They no longer do this and it is all happy holiday or something similar. I don't remember there being any complaints or public outcry from anyone that felt offended by the word Christmas.

I work in the mental health system. We used to call people that come here "clients." A few years ago, one of the administrators decided that didn't sound good and changed it to "consumer." In the 7 years I have been here I have heard all sorts of complaints, but I have never heard anyone complain about being called a client, nor do I see it as being offensive in any way.

Snickers Man

mike65 wrote:

Snickers Man my niece is being taught that new version of Baa Baa Black Sheep so its not a myth quite why you thought it was beats me.

Well I've read one newspaper (and quoted it elsewhere) which says that it's a load of old cobblers. So I guess it's just a case of who I choose to believe.

I'll believe it when I hear somebody tell me to my face that they genuinely think changing the nursery rhyme to 'Baa Baa happy sheep' is a good idea.

Until then--sorry. Don't believe you.

Certainly it's true that some nursery rhymes have been changed over the years. I was taught to sing
Eeny Meeny Miney Mo
Catch a piggy by the toe

but Iwell remember some contemporaries singing 'catch a "(n-word)" by the toe'

Mind you, I wouldn't object to that one being changed.

metrovelvet

Yes I have met them and there are a lot of them. Especially in the northeast US. Some [let me emphasise SOME and not orthodox or conservative but reformed] Jews really hate the christmas thing. To the extent that if you are dating a jew and you are wearing a cross you better tuck it in so they dont get offended. I had a jewish boyfriend once and he and his mother were coming over and I had to hide the Christmas tree. [Reformed!]. Im not kidding.

Anyone, like me, who went to a northeastern liberal arts university can tell you some stories.

I am very pro-woman, but I have come across feminazis who are just ridiculous. Like in a political science class we were told that wearing a skirt is internalised oppression, as is heterosexuality.

Or for a black man to date a white woman is betraying the race. Or the white man is evil.

Its not a myth, there are people like that. A lot.

Good manners.... well the thing with that is that we cant all agree on what is good manners.... i think its a good manners to give up your seat for a pregant woman or a woman in high heels, but other think its patronising. [shrug]

Snickers Man

metrovelvet wrote:

. To the extent that if you are dating a jew and you are wearing a cross you better tuck it in so they dont get offended.

Well you shouldn't be doing that as a nice Christian girl, now should you.

And if you're not, what business have you got wearing a cross in the first place.

Not that I object for a second. Go for it. Jewish men tend to be very polite, wealthy and the chances of getting cervical cancer from them are zero.

metrovelvet wrote:

Good manners.... well the thing with that is that we cant all agree on what is good manners....

That's a good point, but we can usually tell when somebody is making an effort to be polite and that is far more important than sticking to the letter of the law.

SteveS

metrovelvet wrote:

Anyone, like me, who went to a northeastern liberal arts university can tell you some stories.


Its not a myth, there are people like that. A lot.

Good manners.... well the thing with that is that we cant all agree on what is good manners.... i think its a good manners to give up your seat for a pregant woman or a woman in high heels, but other think its patronising. [shrug]

I agree and I believe you. My university is in the mid-west, but like most universities, is pretty "liberal." There will always be some people that will be offended by almost anything. The question is where to draw the line. I think it is good manners to not offend someone on purpose, but at some point it can become an imposition on my free speech rights or free expression rights.

Karl Hungus

Sorry Snickers Man, but you're being entirely naive to think that such political correctness is a myth. I wish it were a myth, but it's sadly not. Along with anecdotes that were provided already, I'd like to bring this piece of evidence to the fold.

Aswell as that, there certainly are people who are vehemently against the mention of Christmas. I remember watching a Larry King show where the subject of the banning of Christmas, and he interviewed a number of people, one of which was a woman who was speaking on the side of banning Christmas, which was quite shocking to see how aggressive this woman was with her beliefs that it was offensive.

Like I said, I really wish the whole PC debacle was a myth.

mountainyman

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes I have met them and there are a lot of them. Especially in the northeast...
Anyone, like me, who went to a northeastern liberal arts university...

Poor thing no wonder you're a fag hag:)
If you find that offensive let me know and I will edit the email.

PC is an interesting phenomenon in that specific context. Effectively it it is a function of the destruction of the American working class and the end of class politics there.

All that is left is the politics of identity. While most of what is called PC is simple good manners I don't feel that identity politics are appropriate in Ireland.

MM

lostexpectation

mike65 wrote:

Happy fvcking Hollidays is PC maddess to me. PC is rife in the States at an offical and media level. In the UK the Nativity Play at junior school is starting to die out as its deemed to mono cultural - not by Seiks or Musilins but by the numbskulls who run local education authorities and councilers.

Snickers Man my niece is being taught that new version of Baa Baa Black Sheep so its not a myth quite why you thought it was beats me.

Mike.

well then please give your niece's teacher a slap from me.

I too think these guys are idiots and it was false but if i was to give them the benefit of the doubt
i guess they are purposely changing the story not to erase the story or the word black from history but use it as educational tool that people are different and are not 'black sheep diasppointments and oddities...

if i was to stay true to form then I would say as opposed to inserting ID into science class these are only alterering cultural quirks and moral stories rather then denying facts like the age of the earth

simu

I don't think this get-offended-at-the-slightest-thing PC has caught on much in Ireland at all tbh.

It seems to be far more prevalent in the US and possibly England although I get the impression that in England, getting worked up about piggy banks etc (as in the link Karl Hungus provided) is the preserve of silly busybodies with too much time on their hands, a bit like those people who get offended by ads and write into newspapers all the time in this country.

metrovelvet

I dont wear a cross nor am I with him - this is a long time ago. He didnt give a ****, it was more his mother. And thats more why I wouldnt be into jewish men, its like you have to date their mothers too. No thanks. However, we all have Yom Kippur off but we dont have Good Friday off. ?

I didnt realise you can catch cervical cancer?

Ahhhh "the letter of the law..." Interesting that you bring this up... because I think this is one of the central differences between Judaic and Christian perspectives.

* OT: One is very Talmudic [where in Judaism, the law, the contract, the covenant] is crucial whereas in Christianity intention is considered.

Can we even agree that being offensive is inheritantly bad? So, can we even agree that INTENTION is what we should look for when considering what is offensive or not offensive?

I dont think being offensive is always such a bad idea. Wasnt rock music founded on the idea of being offensive? Has rebellion become so bad and weve all become a bunch of grannies tsk tsking.

Yes MM it is the destruction of working class politics and the exclusion of them. Absolutely bang on. PC is as bourgie as it gets and part of a 90s millennial puritanism which swept the nation and is still lingering unfortunately.

I dont find the fag hag offensive, but I take exception to the "poor thing.":D Im not a faghag btw, yet- but dont worry I can still get down with my bad self.

Identity politics may indeed become relevant in Ireland as it grow more multi-cultural and you have children with parents who are not from Ireland being raised and born there.

mountainyman

simu wrote:

...in England, getting worked up about piggy banks ...

Khalid Mahmoud [MP]...criticised the piggy-bank ban.
"We live in a multicultural society and the traditions and symbols of one community should not be obliterated just to accommodate another,"

"I doubt many Muslims would be seriously offended by piggy banks."

What happens is that some head case claims to speak for a group and they can get their perspective to seems like the normal one for that group.

On the other hand when some scumbag starts ranting and raving about Muslims doing this and muslims doing that I start to see the need for PC. Or good manners as I call it.

Anyway what about the Lyons minstrels.

Aaaaah its just a big racket.

MM

lostexpectation

Yes MM it is the destruction of working class politics and the exclusion of them. Absolutely bang on. PC is as bourgie as it gets and part of a 90s millennial puritanism which swept the nation and is still lingering unfortunately.

explain that to me slowly

Snickers Man

Karl Hungus wrote:

Sorry Snickers Man, but you're being entirely naive to think that such political correctness is a myth. I wish it were a myth, but it's sadly not. Along with anecdotes that were provided already, I'd like to bring this piece of evidence to the fold.

And your link says "Halifax and NatWest banks have led the move to scrap the time-honoured symbol of saving from being given to children or used in their advertising, the Daily Express/Daily Star group reports"

For crying out loud: The Daily Express/Daily Star Group. Call me naive all you like. I also don't believe that Freddy Star ever ate anyone's hamster.

Don't get me quotations from British tabloids to prove your case. Get me somebody who will stand up and say 'I think it's a good idea to change the words of Baa Baa Black Sheep'. There is nobody on this forum who has done so. Nor do I think there will be. This is just a circle jerk of people choosing to believe there is a conspiracy out there to undermine all the things that made childhood delightful.

Hey look! Something we can all agree on. Politically correct people make our life a misery!

They sure do, or at least they sure would do, if we could find one.

mike65

Just wait till next week - I hope to have an mp3 of my niece singing for you!

Mike.

Snickers Man

And still no post from a pro-PC person.

Come out come out wherever you are!!!!





Oh don't say come Snickers!!! You'll offend the impotent!!!

metrovelvet

Are there any people on this forum who are black? And sensitive to being particualrised? I doubt it which is why you arent hearing it.

"The black sheep of the family." Not a positive connotation.

Think about the metaphors and connotations around darkness. ANd how you might feel living with those if you were black.

They also tried to change the lyrics to ring around the rosey so as not to scare the children.

Are you familiar with the term IRISH TWINS? It means kids born one right after the other because of how much the Irish like to have babies.


*I dont support changing the lyrics - im just explaining what I think is behind the suggestion.
SM see the ISLAM forum for PC.

Snickers Man

metrovelvet wrote:

I didnt realise you can catch cervical cancer?

Well you can't strictly speaking but without going into too much gynaecological detail, cervical cancer is unknown (I believe but it could be a politically correct myth) in communities of nuns (ie virgins) and among orthodox Jewish women. (ie women who we can be pretty sure are only having sex with the circumsised men to which they are married)

Leading some to conclude that there is a statistical link between cervical cancer and having sex with uncircumsised males.

It's a cleanliness thing, I believe.

Snickers Man

metrovelvet wrote:

Are there any people on this forum who are black? And sensitive to being particualrised? I doubt it which is why you arent hearing it.

"The black sheep of the family." Not a positive connotation.

Think about the metaphors and connotations around darkness. ANd how you might feel living with those if you were black.

Well the answer to that is to hit right back with a positive message. Like 'Black is beautiful'. Now that was a movement led by black people.

They also tried to change the lyrics to ring around the rosey so as not to scare the children.

Well wasn't that written about the plague? Fair enough if you don't want to scare them. That's a different thing from scaring them into thinking that somebody else might take great offence if you put your penniesinto a plastic pig.

Are you familiar with the term IRISH TWINS? It means kids born one right after the other because of how much the Irish like to have babies.

Never heard of it.
I must say, genuinely negative stereotypes eg Murphy's Law are offensive because they're intended to be so. And I would say that the above example extends into that territory.

SM see the ISLAM forum for PC.

Will do. Going there now.

samb

That Bla bla black sheep example is nonsense, just because nobody would advocate banning this (or object to it) that does not mean that showing respect is a bad thing.
Its like slagging feminism because some believe that E=Mc2 is sexist.

There isn't much to disagree on or discuss here. Sometimes PCness can go to far, sometimes it is fine.

Karl Hungus

Snickers Man wrote:

And your link says "Halifax and NatWest banks have led the move to scrap the time-honoured symbol of saving from being given to children or used in their advertising, the Daily Express/Daily Star group reports"

For crying out loud: The Daily Express/Daily Star Group. Call me naive all you like. I also don't believe that Freddy Star ever ate anyone's hamster.

Don't get me quotations from British tabloids to prove your case. Get me somebody who will stand up and say 'I think it's a good idea to change the words of Baa Baa Black Sheep'. There is nobody on this forum who has done so. Nor do I think there will be. This is just a circle jerk of people choosing to believe there is a conspiracy out there to undermine all the things that made childhood delightful.

Hey look! Something we can all agree on. Politically correct people make our life a misery!

They sure do, or at least they sure would do, if we could find one.

So, let me get this straight. You're only willing to accept proof if it matches a certain criteria, and that if there isn't someone who specifically on these boards who advocates banning Christmas/Piggy banks or other examples of OTT Political Correctness, then you're not going to be satisfied?

Indeed, you can throw around accussations of believing a conspiracy, but you're quite giving the impression that just because you have had no first-hand experience, it doesn't exist!

I've no experience of someone speaking Swahili, therefor it is a myth that anyone speaks Swahili. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

mike65 wrote:

Happy fvcking Hollidays is PC maddess to me.

Prehaps but not to everyone else in the US. Would you prefer to go through the whole list, or try and guess a persons religon and hope you don't offend them if you get it wrong. Some people do take serious offensive to happy christmas, had an incident where I wished a Jewish guy happy christmas and he was offended by it.

People don't say "Happy Holiday" because its PC, but because its easier and people have stuff to do.

SM see the ISLAM forum for PC.

Don't confuse being PC and your right to be offensive to others where you like. You have no more right to be offensive in that forum then if you turned up at a mosque and spouted some of the crap people have got banned for. Or for a better example try turning up to a weight watchers meeting and calling everyone fatty. See how long they let you stay there.

metrovelvet

Hobbes there is no reason for you to bring up old arguments. I did not go into the Islam forum and throw insults at them. I asked someone if they were a moderate and you got indignant on their behalf. So you basically didnt allow them to have a voice but imposed your own voice on it. How PC.

You have recently changed your title. Werent you the mod formerlly known as General of the PC Brigade.

Now, I hate it, and I mean hate it when Im called baby doll, baby cakes, petal, sweetheart or anything diminuitive or miniature. I HATE IT!!! And yet I have been called those things several times on these boards and because the MODS and the caller dont find it offensive it's allowed, regardless of how I feel about it.

So it seems to me that things are only offensive of mods say they are and the offensiveness is in no way related to the feelings of the reader.

Hobbes, its you I suspect who doesnt really get PC.

John_C

Snickers Man wrote:

So next time somebody says that a loony left council in Britain wants to change the name of the central european country from Germany to Gerpersony to avoid sexism, ...

There was a very similar example about a year ago when the ombudsman wanted to be called the ombudsperson. I don't have a link but there were a lot of letters in the irish times containing very poor puns on the subject.

Blowfish

Hobbes wrote:

Prehaps but not to everyone else in the US. Would you prefer to go through the whole list, or try and guess a persons religon and hope you don't offend them if you get it wrong. Some people do take serious offensive to happy christmas, had an incident where I wished a Jewish guy happy christmas and he was offended by it.

People don't say "Happy Holiday" because its PC, but because its easier and people have stuff to do.

Personally, I don't celebrate christmas, but i get people saying happy christmas to me all the time. tbh i don't give a crap, i feel that's what is more important is not their exact wording, but their intent. They don't mean it as an insult, so i don't take it as one, they are simply trying to be nice.

Snickers Man

Karl Hungus wrote:

So, let me get this straight. You're only willing to accept proof if it matches a certain criteria, and that if there isn't someone who specifically on these boards who advocates banning Christmas/Piggy banks or other examples of OTT Political Correctness, then you're not going to be satisfied?

Indeed, you can throw around accussations of believing a conspiracy, but you're quite giving the impression that just because you have had no first-hand experience, it doesn't exist!

I've no experience of someone speaking Swahili, therefor it is a myth that anyone speaks Swahili. :rolleyes:

I certainly do not accept whinging griping articles from the "The world would be a better place if we only had our empire back" school of Right Wing British tabloids as evidence. I just find it very strange that there doesn't seem to be one person who is willing to defend this admittedly ludicrous notion either on these boards or among my peer group or indeed among anyone I;ve ever met.

I've heard loony left 'nationalise everything share the wealth out equally' politics and I've met and argued with (make that been argued at) those who believe in that sort of thing. i've heard the most appaling so-called Rationalists arguing that helping your fellow man is immoral altruism should be banned and have indeed met and spoken with some people who believe that sort of thing.

I also know some people who have a pretty low tolerance of any sort of mickey taking or leg pulling and will take real offence at woords such as culchie and knacker and bogger, but their distaste for such terminology is rooted in respect for others as a default position.

This nonsense, the like of which we're reading now is to my mind largely a concoction dreamed up by people with far too much spleen and far too little intelligence.

Snickers Man

samb wrote:

There isn't much to disagree on or discuss here..

That's exactly my point!!!

Where are all these people who want to rewrite BaaBaa Black Sheep or who woud support such a notion!!!

That flapping sound you here is the naked emperor's todger being tossed about by the wind.