Political Correctness: is it just a modern myth?

fly_agaric

Snickers Man wrote:

Have you read through the example you cite as 'true'? A junior official made a decision that was over ruled. He (or she) thought it would be a good idea to neutralise Christmas but civil servants higher up veotoed his decision. So what do we conclude from that?

My guess would be that the junior clerk believed that such a move was necessary under the rules of political correctness that he (or she) thought would pertain in this particular case only to be disabused of the notion that there was any such requirement.

Or put another way: the junior person believed in the myth of PC but was later assured that it was just that: a myth.

I'd say the junior person was just a tad overzealous in following the zeitgeist -but their heart was in the right place!

Here is an example (from the US) of a man who probably though that PC excesses are a myth. That he could butcher another of those sacred cows (non-physical gender differences are constructed by society) The Corinthian mentions without fearing for his position. "Myths" can sometimes bite back though!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_H._Summers

http://www.now.org/press/01-05/01-20-Harvard.html

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:nLE7sPYe7K8J:www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/02/21/harvard.resignation.ap/index.htm

mountainyman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill

Anyway alot of this stuff is irrelevant to Ireland.
I think you have to be an American to understand how they feel about free speech. We certainly don't have it here.


MM

The Corinthian

Snickers Man wrote:

Now hold on. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there has been a general social move away from tolerance of racist or pejorative terms such as ******, Wog, Coon, Paddy,Yid, Chick, Sheila, Toots, Tinker, Knacker etc etc (I hope those words all get through, I suspect that some of them will automatically be covered up.

Actually the principle reason for the move away from such terms is based upon the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis rather than the question of offence. The problem with this is when the hypothesis fails and the pejorative meaning becomes attached to that which it is attempting to redefine. When this happens the politically correct habit of renaming groups to rehabilitate our perception of them becomes little more than temporary obfuscation.

That has all gone hand in hand with a greater democratisation and tolerance of self assertion. Which is no bad thing at all.

Correlation does not imply causation. After all, global warming as also gone hand in hand with democratisation too. Does that mean that the former is to blame for the latter?

I take it you are not asking for a return to the days when we could call a Wop a Wop?

The term does not particularly bother me TBH.

What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the so-called silly excesses are either non existent, hugely exaggerated or else taken completely out of context; that there is no geat movement towards completely anodyne speech as the default method of talking, that such excesses as there are are usually thre result of a misapprehension like the case of the guy who wanted to rename the Christmas Lights, and that the motivating force, such as it is, that is driving this lunacy is a myth. Fuelled by shoddy media and troublemakers itching for a fight.

Whether there is a great - or more correctly organised - movement or not, is debatable, however there is certainly a movement towards the control of language so as to engender change in opinion and that there have been numerous cases that have gone over the top in this regard. How many examples do you need from people here before you accept this?

The problem with such a philosophy is that it does result in silly excesses and more seriously in the censorship of any debate that would contradict the politically correct view. Indeed, perhaps to illustrate this, you’ve completely ignored my point on ideological sacred cows, such as the Jewish Holocaust or Racism / Racialism.

The irony of political correctness is that while it seeks to engender tolerance, it is anything but.

metrovelvet

I think this is a delicious example of PC. Columbia University, named after Columbus no longer recognises Columbus Day as a holiday like the rest of the country does, because of all the evil his discovery of America caused.

So while this earns approval from bourgie rich white kids who attend Columbia at 30,000 a year, the Italian Americans who work there dont get a day off nor do the other hard working individuals like the janitors who clean up their puke o f spoiled brat college kids.

Or heres a product of PC I just cant deal with. The day I have to share the women's bathrooms with transvestites is the day I vote republican. Forever.

I think one of the starkest examples of PC in Ireland was the Nigerian who was cleared for the circumcision which resulted in the death of a child. There is a limit to how far one can be tolerant if what you are tolerating is manslaughter.

Has anyone read DeLillos WHITE NOISE? Its fabulous satire on this.

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

So while this earns approval from bourgie rich white kids who attend Columbia at 30,000 a year, the Italian Americans who work there dont get a day off nor do the other hard working individuals like the janitors who clean up their puke o f spoiled brat college kids.
The day I have to share the women's bathrooms with transvestites is the day I vote republican. Forever.
.

You don't like rich people?
You don't like white people?
You don't like college students?
You don't like transvestites?

You like Italian Americans?
You like janitors?

Never read such sentances loaded with prejudice.

I think the defintion of PC has been expanded to include policies of tolerance and respect, rather than just the language we use. This is wrong, IMO.
Being nice to gays is only politically correct in the sense that it is the mainstream political outlook. I think this is simply progress, and not an example of the tyranny of PC.

mountainyman

metrovelvet wrote:

I think one of the starkest examples of PC in Ireland was the Nigerian who was cleared for the circumcision which resulted in the death of a child. There is a limit to how far one can be tolerant if what you are tolerating is manslaughter.

In that specific case the parents were completely at fault the mohel style guy did everything right and this was accepted by the prosecution. He had left The parents and they didn't ring him or the hospital (5 minutes away). It was their fault but the jury wasn't going to send them to jail.

The summing up was unfortunate all thatwhite western values stuff, surely 'our own Irish values' would make more sense as this country is both white and western. I hate people saying white when they mean Irish.

MM

metrovelvet

samb wrote:

You don't like rich people?
You don't like white people?
You don't like college students?
You don't like transvestites?

You like Italian Americans?
You like janitors?

Never read such sentances loaded with prejudice.

I never said like or dislike.

I never read such sentences loads with such assumptions. So its you who have prejudged, not me. Im talking about something that happened, your talking about fantasies you have about me which is based on nothing except figments of your imagination.

Yes MM people need to be more specific about race and nationality. That annoys me too. But you can expect that in European monoliths.

mountainyman

metrovelvet wrote:

...
Yes MM people need to be more specific about race and nationality. That annoys me too. But you can expect that in European monoliths.

There are 2 sides to it though.
Firstly non white Irish people shouldn't be excluded
Just as importantly I think we sould remember that the Irish people are special and unique and distinct from the other billion white people on the planet.

samb wrote:

...
You don't like rich people?

Oh poor richies L augh O ut L oud

MM

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

You don't like rich people?
You don't like white people?
You don't like college students?
You don't like transvestites?

You like Italian Americans?
You like janitors?

Never read such sentances loaded with prejudice.

Well that’s one of the more ridiculous arguments I’ve heard in a while.

I think the defintion of PC has been expanded to include policies of tolerance and respect, rather than just the language we use. This is wrong, IMO.

Your expert opinion I presume? Or are you simply cherry picking those parts of the definition that fit with “your opinion”?

Being nice to gays is only politically correct in the sense that it is the mainstream political outlook.

So you accept that political correctness has influenced social policy? I do think you have to work out what exactly you mean as you’re being either ambiguous or even contradictory.

I think this is simply progress, and not an example of the tyranny of PC.

One man’s progress is another’s regression, but I’ll assume you’ve expressed another expert opinion. Still, regardless, when progress is imposed it’s still tyranny, even if it is benevolent.

The Corinthian

mountainyman wrote:

Just as importantly I think we sould remember that the Irish people are special and unique and distinct from the other billion white people on the planet.

"Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis." - Brendan Behan

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

So while this earns approval from bourgie rich white kids who attend Columbia at 30,000 a year, the Italian Americans who work there dont get a day off nor do the other hard working individuals like the janitors who clean up their puke o f spoiled brat college kids.

Or heres a product of PC I just cant deal with. The day I have to share the women's bathrooms with transvestites is the day I vote republican. Forever.

.

Loaded, IMO

metrovelvet

Its not that I dont like transvestites. But I dont think I should have to share a bathroom with men who like pretending to be women. To me they are still men and I dont want to share a bathroom with men. Capisce? I dont care if they like to **** women or men or their own hands, they are men and should use the mens facilities when they need to powder their noses or relieve themselves.

We're not talking about "being nice to gays" here. We're talking about something much broader than that. Its when tolerance becomes oppressive.

But yes I dont think real PC has hit Ireland yet except in a very superficial way.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

So you accept that political correctness has influenced social policy? I do think you have to work out what exactly you mean as you’re being either ambiguous or even contradictory.

One man’s progress is another’s regression, but I’ll assume you’ve expressed another expert opinion. Still, regardless, when progress is imposed it’s still tyranny, even if it is benevolent.

Not sure why you are going on about 'my expert opinion?'. I agree though my point was ambigous and not well made.

Political Correctness in my view is about language. Giving rights to minority groups is not PCness, it is just inclusive social policy. If mainstream political opinion is too nice to minorities then that is your problem, your views are not mainstream just as the view that meateaters are murderers is not mainstream. I hope you understand my stance now.

It is only IMEO;)

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

Its not that I dont like transvestites. But I dont think I should have to share a bathroom with men who like pretending to be women. To me they are still men and I dont want to share a bathroom with men. Capisce? I dont care if they like to **** women or men or their own hands, they are men and should use the mens facilities when they need to powder their noses or relieve themselves.
.

Yes, your right. Would you be content with no sexual segragation. This could be a method of making our society more inclusive. But I suppose you guys believe that to do so would be to be blindly PC.

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

Not sure why you are going on about 'my expert opinion?'. I agree though my point was ambigous and not well made.

Because you’ve stated a position based solely on your opinion. Were you an expert in the field we might take your word for it, but you’re not (I admit it, I was being sarcastic). And this leaves us with an opinion - which was ambiguously stated at that - and no argument to back it up.

Political Correctness in my view is about language. Giving rights to minority groups is not PCness, it is just inclusive social policy.

Political Correctness originated as a linguistic method of carrying out social engineering, specifically to promoted real - and perceived - rights imbalances. As such it certainly was about language, but you conveniently forget to ask what the purpose of changing the language was.

It is this purpose that is Political Correctness, that it originally used the redefinition of language, and later moved to methods such as positive discrimination, was only the means to these ends. Whether you like it or not you cannot separate this purpose from the lingustic origins that were adopted to promote it, which is why your apolitical assertion is very poorly thought out.

If mainstream political opinion is too nice to minorities then that is your problem, your views are not mainstream just as the view that meateaters are murderers is not mainstream. I hope you understand my stance now.

In you own ham fisted way you’ve actually demonstrated a central device that Political Correctness uses in impose it’s own definitions - the demonization of the dissenter. If you question that all races are equal, you’re a racist, if you question Feminism, you’re a misogynist and if you question the Holocaust, you’re an anti-Semite or even a Nazi.

No dissention, no debate is tolerated before some PC lemming will make this accusation. And according to you, I’m of the opinion that mainstream political opinion is too nice to minorities. QED.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

In you own ham fisted way you’ve actually demonstrated a central device that Political Correctness uses in impose it’s own definitions - the demonization of the dissenter. If you question that all races are equal, you’re a racist, if you question Feminism, you’re a misogynist and if you question the Holocaust, you’re an anti-Semite or even a Nazi.

No dissention, no debate is tolerated before some PC lemming will make this accusation. And according to you, I’m of the opinion that mainstream political opinion is too nice to minorities. QED.

Sorry I said 'IF' you think minorities....

Anyway, your point about demonization of the dissenter is important. This is done by all groups not just those that would be regarded PC lemmings in your view. Right-wing people characterise Left as being Stalinists or Moaists while left-wing people characterise the right has being Nazi's. If your political opinion is not mainstream then UNFORTUNATELY you have to put up with this, it is not directly attributable to PCness, if you think it is then that makes the term almost redundant; it then just means an unpopular view.

metrovelvet

samb wrote:

. Right-wing people characterise Left as being Stalinists or Moaists while left-wing people characterise the right has being Nazi's. .

No. They dont. Only dummies from either side do that who dont know what Naziism, Stalinism or Maoism is.

samb wrote:

.
If your political opinion is not mainstream then UNFORTUNATELY you have to put up with this, it is not directly attributable to PCness, if you think it is then that makes the term almost redundant; it then just means an unpopular view.

No. First of all you dont have to put with anything you dont want to. Lets just knock that idea out of the picture.

You seem to be thinking that anything that is not centrist = politically correct, and that is just inaccurate.

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

No. They dont. Only dummies from either side do that who dont know what Naziism, Stalinism or Maoism is. .

Well yes, dummies do. But we have to put up with dummies.

metrovelvet wrote:

No. First of all you dont have to put with anything you dont want to. Lets just knock that idea out of the picture.

You seem to be thinking that anything that is not centrist = politically correct, and that is just inaccurate.

I agree, but I think that that view is the logical end to Corinthian's view. that

Whether you like it or not you cannot separate this purpose from the lingustic origins that were adopted to promote it, which is why your apolitical assertion is very poorly thought out.

I think it is apolitical.
Is it not politically incorrect to compare someone with Stalin or Hitler? I think it is, and I think these comparisons can sometimes be useful. Therefore, PCness is not only used by those of a certain viewpoint.

I think each example needs to be judged individually. Things like quotas, are techniques used to influence society (I think often unfairly). You cannot dismiss the motives as PC, the motives are social inclusion and each issue needs discussion. I disagree with quotas but I recongnise the motives of those wanting to introduce it.

mountainyman

...is Minister McDowell Politically Correct?
Corinthian
If you question the holocaust you're a Nazi; probably or an autodidact who is no where near as clever as he thinks he is. depends to a limited extent on what you mean by question the Holocaust. Is Norman Finkelstein a Nazi. Do you mean ask questions about the holocaust.

If you question that the races are equal you are a racist; tautologically.

If you are against feminism you are a misogynist; maybe and maybe not, depends on your definition of feminism.

I suppose if you are a racist you might feel picked on by anti racists.

If you are a holocaust denier you might feel picked on by historians; look at Irving how he has been victimised for being A dishonest historian.

I suggest that academic uproar and critique is a mild way to stifle debate indeed it is in the nature of academic that there wil be orthodoxy and heresy. Collusion between politician, plutocrat and policeman to leak and smear inependent inquiry and investigation is far far worse and belongs to the mainstream right not the academic left.







MM

fly_agaric

mountainyman wrote:

The summing up was unfortunate all thatwhite western values stuff, surely 'our own Irish values' would make more sense as this country is both white and western. I hate people saying white when they mean Irish.
MM

True, but in fairness Ireland is a bit like the UK/US with a 1 to 2 decade or so phase shift so a more all-encompassing adjective than "Irish" is valid. Lately (IMO) the phase shift has been rapidly approaching zero and the last few things that made us a little bit different from the rest of the "anglo" world are being sanded away.

(Again IMO), people "outside" have a hard time seeing any essential difference between us and the Americans or the British or the Australians or the Canadians etc. Unless perhaps they have lived here or have some other reason to care.

The Corinthian

mountainyman wrote:

If you question the holocaust you're a Nazi; probably or an autodidact who is no where near as clever as he thinks he is.

Really? Is that a fact or groupthink? So it is stupid to question?

Is Norman Finkelstein a Nazi. Do you mean ask questions about the holocaust.

As Finkelstein himself said to the Anti-Defamation League; "I am Jewish and my parents are Holocaust survivors. With others you could say, 'you're an anti-Semite' or 'you're a Holocaust denier,' [but] you can't do that with me."

If you question that the races are equal you are a racist; tautologically.

My mistake, I was referring to the modern, more popular definition of the term Racism, which has become synonymous with race-based bigotry and so has become a term of abuse.

If you are against feminism you are a misogynist; maybe and maybe not, depends on your definition of feminism.

That’s a bit of a bullshít answer, which frankly could be applied to anything. Additionally I never said anything about being against feminism, only questioning it. This is actually part if the idiocy of PC groupthink; if you question something you must be opposed, if you’re opposed you must be a (race-gender-whatever) bigot.

I suppose if you are a racist you might feel picked on by anti racists.

And if you’re a Manchester United fan, you might feel picked on by Manchester City fans. So what is your point?

If you are a holocaust denier you might feel picked on by historians; look at Irving how he has been victimised for being A dishonest historian.

Irving is presently in prison due to an Austrian law that makes it a criminal offence to challenge the accepted history of the holocaust. Historians have nothing to do with his present predicament.

I suggest that academic uproar and critique is a mild way to stifle debate indeed it is in the nature of academic that there wil be orthodoxy and heresy. Collusion between politician, plutocrat and policeman to leak and smear inependent inquiry and investigation is far far worse and belongs to the mainstream right not the academic left.

As we saw from the Soviet Union. Oh, wait, we didn’t.

The academic left’s shít stinks just as much as the mainstream right’s. Forget that and you tend to end up with a ice pick in your head.

metrovelvet

fly_agaric wrote:

Lately (IMO) the phase shift has been rapidly approaching zero and the last few things that made us a little bit different from the rest of the "anglo" world are being sanded away.

(Again IMO), people "outside" have a hard time seeing any essential difference between us and the Americans or the British or the Australians or the Canadians etc. Unless perhaps they have lived here or have some other reason to care.

Hmnnn....not so sure about this... but Ireland is certainly lagging behind in terms of cultural production and export compared to the rest of the Anglophone world.

I see tremendous differences culturally among all the nations of the anglophone world and also tremendous common ground.

SteveS

St. Paul City Office Boots Easter Bunny
ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) - A small Easter display was removed from the City Hall lobby on Wednesday out of concern that it would offend non-Christians.

Associated Press

Last update: March 24, 2006 – 3:43 AM

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) - A small Easter display was removed from the City Hall lobby on Wednesday out of concern that it would offend non-Christians.

The display - a cloth Easter bunny, pastel-colored eggs and a sign with the words "Happy Easter'' - was put up by a City Council secretary. They were not purchased with city money.

Tyrone Terrill, the city's human rights director, asked that the decorations be removed. Terrill said no citizen had complained to him.

Council Member Dave Thune called it a shame.

"This has just gone too far,'' he said. "We can't celebrate spring with bunnies and fake grass?''

The council president, Kathy Lantry, said the removal wasn't about political correctness.

"As government, we have a different responsibility about advancing the cause of religion, which we are not going to do,'' she said.

It's not the first time a holiday symbol has been removed from City Hall. In 2001, red poinsettias were briefly banned from a holiday display because they were associated with Christmas.

---

Ok, so no one complained, but they removed it anyway?

metrovelvet

mountainyman wrote:

...
Corinthian
If you question the holocaust you're a Nazi;

Its true. You cant say **** about it. If you point out that 50 mil people died in WW2, 6 of those were Jews, you run the risk of being accused of anti- semitism. They have primary status when it comes to victimhood on that. But I think this was the case at least in the US even before PC.

mountainyman wrote:

...
If you question that the races are equal you are a racist; tautologically.

More like if you argue that certain consitutencies are partially responsible for their own disempowerment you are a bigot. Much like you cant point out how the Irish may have or have not screw each other over and cant blame the Brits for everything.

mountainyman wrote:

...
If you are against feminism you are a misogynist; maybe and maybe not, depends on your definition of feminism. ]

Yes. If you are a PC feminist or a radical feminist than yes that would be true, or you would at least be sexist if you argue against their platforms/agendas.

But in the end is another form of blackmail/peerpressure.

Say this, do this, think this or you are this.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

As we saw from the Soviet Union. Oh, wait, we didn’t.

The academic left’s shít stinks just as much as the mainstream right’s. Forget that and you tend to end up with a ice pick in your head.

Your true colours are becoming exposed now Corinthian. It is easy to demonise those who oppose you, and to claim you are a victim (a victim of PC in this case).

fly_agaric

metrovelvet wrote:

Ireland is certainly lagging behind in terms of cultural production and export compared to the rest of the Anglophone world.

I was thinking of trends and fashions (like, for example, this PC stuff) in the other anglo countries rather than cultural output. I don't think we do so bad for a píssant island of 4million or so with only 1 major city (1million+) (apologies to Cork, Limerick, Galway, Belfast, Waterford, Kilkenny). Compare to the 60million in the UK, 10million in Australia, 200million or so "anglos" in the US...

metrovelvet wrote:

I see tremendous differences culturally among all the nations of the anglophone world and also tremendous common ground.

But you are on the inside you see.;) Afaicr you are an American who has lived (is living?) here rather than from an african or an asian country (or even from continental Europe for that matter). Anyway, I may be wrong.:p

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

Your true colours are becoming exposed now Corinthian. It is easy to demonise those who oppose you, and to claim you are a victim (a victim of PC in this case).

Firstly, I was responding to his claim that the use of underhanded means to stifle debate was unique to the right, which, as we saw in the Soviet Union, it is not.

Secondly I even went so far as to underline point out that both left and right wing politics can be equally underhanded with the line “the academic left’s shít stinks just as much as the mainstream right’s.”

Also, where have I made claim to victimhood?

So, It’s pretty obvious to even the semi-literate that I was rebutting his assertion and went so far as not to claim the opposite, which would have been partisan. I’ll assume you didn’t read this correctly, rather than the alternative, unflattering, conclusion.

metrovelvet

fly_agaric wrote:

I was thinking of trends and fashions (like, for example, this PC stuff) in the other anglo countries rather than cultural output.

Trends, fashions, ideologies, are part of what cultural output is. I dont mean just plays and novels. I mean clothes, music, pop culture, visual arts, dance, comics,cartoons, film, tv, etc etc.

Ireland needs to get on the ball and stop being so import dependant. For example, Fr Ted was rejected by RTE for fear of offending so who did it go to? channel 4. Imagine if there was a similar show called Imam Mo. lol. Anyone want to join me to write a pilot?

This is perhaps why people feel they are losing their identities, plus hating your enemy can only get you so far.

fly_agaric wrote:

But you are on the inside you see.;) Afaicr you are an American who has lived (is living?) here rather than from an african or an asian country (or even from continental Europe for that matter). Anyway, I may be wrong.:p

Oh you mean people from outside the anglophone world cant see the differences?

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

In you own ham fisted way you’ve actually demonstrated a central device that Political Correctness uses in impose it’s own definitions - the demonization of the dissenter. If you question that all races are equal, you’re a racist, if you question Feminism, you’re a misogynist and if you question the Holocaust, you’re an anti-Semite or even a Nazi.
.

You attack, then claim your the victim of PC censorship

Why are all your examples biased? Left censoring or attacking the right. People make caricatures of all groups. tree-huggers, arty-farty, meusli eating, sandle wearing, to pick some topical examples of the right caricaturing the left.

Your interpretation of what PC means, seems to suggest that it is a mechanism by which the left suppress the right.

My view is that it is something less tangible, more to do with common decency and being polite. Sometimes this goes to far. But it is censorship imposed or self-imposed on both sides, left and right.

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

You attack, then claim your the victim of PC censorship

Where?

Why are all your examples biased? Left censoring or attacking the right. People make caricatures of all groups. tree-huggers, arty-farty, meusli eating, sandle wearing, to pick some topical examples of the right caricaturing the left.

Are you actually reading what I’m posting? Where do I mention left / right wing politics prior to mountainyman raising it?

Your interpretation of what PC means, seems to suggest that it is a mechanism by which the left suppress the right.

No that’s not what I said or inferred.

My view is that it is something less tangible, more to do with common decency and being polite. Sometimes this goes to far. But it is censorship imposed or self-imposed on both sides, left and right.

I don’t think you actually know what you’re talking about.