Political Correctness: is it just a modern myth?

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

In you own ham fisted way you’ve actually demonstrated a central device that Political Correctness uses in impose it’s own definitions - the demonization of the dissenter. If you question that all races are equal, you’re a racist, if you question Feminism, you’re a misogynist and if you question the Holocaust, you’re an anti-Semite or even a Nazi.
[/I]. QED.

You attack, then claim your the victim of PC censorship. you called me ham fisted, then went on to suggest that you are censored if you question holocaust etc

Why are all your examples biased? Left censoring or attacking the right. People make caricatures of all groups. tree-huggers, arty-farty, meusli eating, sandle wearing, to pick some topical examples of the right caricaturing the left. You examples above. All examples of supposed right wing victimhood

Your interpretation of what PC means, seems to suggest that it is a mechanism by which the left suppress the right. See above, all right-wing questions being suppressed

My view is that it is something less tangible, more to do with common decency and being polite. Sometimes this goes to far. But it is censorship imposed or self-imposed on both sides, left and right.

Can you understand now

*Sorry for being patronising in the above post, bold comments were required for some to understand

fly_agaric

metrovelvet wrote:

Trends, fashions, ideologies, are part of what cultural output is. I dont mean just plays and novels. I mean clothes, music, pop culture, visual arts, dance, comics,cartoons, film, tv, etc etc.

Yes, my concept of cultural output was a bit limited. I still don't think we do too badly considering the gravitational pull the US and UK exert on anyone here with good ideas and a bit of talent. The common lingo also means we can be lazy and absorb all the best of the UK/US cultural output without making any effort at all.

I'm going wildly offtopic now so I'll leave it there.

metrovelvet wrote:

Fr Ted was rejected by RTE for fear of offending

Isn't that one a myth? Anyway, RTE is Ireland's State broadcaster. I don't think people being too sensitive to laugh at their own absurdity (Fr. Ted takes the mick out of everything from the Irish mammy, Irish Catholic priests, Irish Catholic religosity, prudishness, to deranged Irish batchelor farmers) is an example of "PC" in action.

Metrovelvet wrote:

Oh you mean people from outside the anglophone world cant see the differences?

all offtopic again but...
Yes. In another 10-15 years many of us on the "inside" will struggle to see the differences too. I think there is a thread related to this on AH at the moment...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054908909

w66w66

samb wrote:

Your interpretation of what PC means, seems to suggest that it is a mechanism by which the left suppress the right.[/I]

There’s no doubt, in my opinion, that the left have created orthodoxies around many issues, orthodoxies which to question are tantamount to a modern form of Heresy. The question is, whether or not political correctness is and has being used as tool to create and enforce these orthodoxies as argued by Anthony Browne (http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/cs47.pdf) in he’s book retreat of reason, or is political correctness a separate issue?

catholicireland

Political Correctness is a joke. Pushed on us by the media and councils because of the sins of the past. We need to grow up and see that if you really want to respect a persons race or religion then you need to stop invadeing and bombing the middle east etc.

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

You attack, then claim your the victim of PC censorship. you called me ham fisted, then went on to suggest that you are censored if you question holocaust etc

I’d hardly have considered your attempt to infer I was racist was competent enough for it to brand me a victim.

Why are all your examples biased? Left censoring or attacking the right. People make caricatures of all groups. tree-huggers, arty-farty, meusli eating, sandle wearing, to pick some topical examples of the right caricaturing the left. You examples above. All examples of supposed right wing victimhood

How are those examples connected to left or right wing politics? Last time I checked, the ADL was a right-wing organisation.

Your interpretation of what PC means, seems to suggest that it is a mechanism by which the left suppress the right. See above, all right-wing questions being suppressed

It seems to suggest it only if you choose to imagine so. The facts of this discussion do not bear up to your accusation however.

My view is that it is something less tangible, more to do with common decency and being polite. Sometimes this goes to far. But it is censorship imposed or self-imposed on both sides, left and right.

I suggest you read up on the subject before passing any further erroneous opinions on it.

Can you understand now

I understand that you don’t actually understand the discussion and that you are attempting to fit your own conspiracy theories into it.

blackbuster

I'm a liberal and as you can imagine I'm also very PC and proud. Political Correctness is essential to stamp out freedom of speech which is dangerous for the economy. TV programs like the late late show is showing the way for the pc future.

PC and proud!

samb

Ok Corinthian, lets draw a line in the sand, and begin again. I humbly apologise for getting the impression that you believed that PCness was a mechanism of the left.

I now do not know what your view is?, maybe we are actually in agreement.

metrovelvet

Wait, I think the ADL is leftist? [But supports right wing policy in Isreal]

PC is a function of the left. You guys are actually debating that?

samb I dont know where you get the right wing victimhood from. Victimhood is a left wing status symbol: you're no one until your oppressed, suppressed, repressed or depressed.

They have managed to turn being the underdog into being elect. Its like Animal Farm. Did you ever read that?

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

PC is a function of the left. You guys are actually debating that?
?

That is what I was debating against, but Corinthian doesn't share your view that PC is a function of the left.(is that fair corinthian?).

The right often claim that they are the victim of PC censorship, that is what I meant. But a vegetarian will be dismissed as an extremist for calling meateaters murderers (i.e it is not PC to say this). Rightly dismissed IMO.

mountainyman

catholicireland wrote:

Political Correctness is a joke. Pushed on us by the media and councils because of the sins of the past. We need to grow up and see that if you really want to respect a persons race or religion then you need to stop invadeing and bombing the middle east etc.

We do not have any sins iof the past, other countries might but the Irish do not. So who is we? It is protestant England that is history's greatest criminal.

MM

Snickers Man

mountainyman wrote:

We do not have any sins iof the past, other countries might but the Irish do not. So who is we? It is protestant England that is history's greatest criminal.

MM

Oh yes we do. Several. But that is going off topic in this thread.

w66w66

samb wrote:

The right often claim that they are the victim of PC censorship

And with good reason too. Although I’m not sure that the issue that the right are referring to when they talk about pc censorship actually is political correctness, but whatever it is it stinks. Here’s a classic example of the left not merely suppressing an opinion on an issue, but suppressing facts on an issue. http://www.stephenpollard.net/002412.html

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote:

Wait, I think the ADL is leftist? [But supports right wing policy in Isreal]

PC is a function of the left. You guys are actually debating that?

Well, not really of the left or at least not exclusively. Actually, the whole distinction between left and right is pretty meaningless nowadays.

In many case Political Correctness could be seen as supporting traditionally left wing (more correctly libertarian) goals, such as homosexual rights. However, it has been around at this stage for over twenty years and so has ironically become part of the established system, and while it may still be the whipping boy of many conservatives, it has also been largely adopted by them to their own ends.

The ADL is an example of this as they are ostensibly a conservative or ‘right wing’ organisation (other than their Israel policy there are more than a few overlaps between them and the neo-conservative PNAC). Another example is the Livingstone-Finegold controversy where Livingstone fell foul of Political Correctness when attacking a journalist for his paper’s past pro-Fascist stance.

So while one could still argue that Political Correctness is a creature of the left, this definition is becoming increasingly questionable - not only because it has in many cases become part of the very establishment it once sought to change, but also because the old ideologies of left and right wing politics have essentially become too blurred to be even identifiable since the end of the Cold War.

mountainyman

These are the examples of PC that have been used to rebut the contention that PC is a myth.

• That the word tinker was abandoned in favour of the word traveller: Incorrect
• That it is impossible to question the holocaust without being called a Nazi: Incorrect
• That discussions of racial distinction and difference are impossible: Incorrect
• That Christmas was cancelled in England: False
• That someone was sacked for saying Niggardly in America: True but is this an example of PC or of stupidity?
• That 'baa baa rainbow sheep' thing: mixed the rhyme exists but hasn't actually been changed anywhere.
• Discussion about feminism is stifled with claims of misogyny: mixed discussion of feminism isn't stifled but claims of misogyny are certainly made.
• That the ladies toilets in UCD were changed to the women's: True but 10 years ago.
• That Columba University cancelled Columbus day: True but St Brendan discovered America and the Yanks should celebrate St Brendan's day instead
• The Antioch University thing: True and really what can one say about something like that?
• The rise in HIV in the UK among heterosexuals deriving from African Immigration and not risky sex among the native English and this information being suppressed: Apparently true and Very Very important.

However this Anthony Browne is not a doctor. That does not mean what he says is not true but I find it hard to believe that the English medical establishment would not be up in arms if this were true and government policy were being formulated in willful opposition to the facts.

The last claim is very impotant but all the others are trivial and/or dishonest.

MM

The Corinthian

mountainyman wrote:

These are the examples of PC that have been used to rebut the contention that PC is a myth.

I’ll address some of your points.

That the word tinker was abandoned in favour of the word traveller: Incorrect

I’d like to challenge you on that - feel free to back up your claim with some credible evidence.

That it is impossible to question the holocaust without being called a Nazi: Incorrect

Utter, utter bullshít. I even went so far as to quote Finkelstein who was not labelled a Nazi only due to his background and that he even believed that were it not for this he would have been.

That discussions of racial distinction and difference are impossible: Incorrect

Actually it’s pretty difficult. Even here, on the Humanities board it’ll get you banned in a heartbeat.

That someone was sacked for saying Niggardly in America: True but is this an example of PC or of stupidity?

If you don’t like the evidence presented against Political Correctness you redefine it as stupidity instead? Try not to be so intellectually dishonest.

Discussion about feminism is stifled with claims of misogyny: mixed discussion of feminism isn't stifled but claims of misogyny are certainly made.

More intellectual dishonesty. By this you are rejecting the claim that accusations of misogyny are made to stifle discussion by suggesting that they are warranted. Oddly enough if you were to seek to stifle discussion by accusing someone of misogyny, that’s exactly what you would do.

That the ladies toilets in UCD were changed to the women's: True but 10 years ago.

So? This makes it less real?

That Columba University cancelled Columbus day: True but St Brendan discovered America and the Yanks should celebrate St Brendan's day instead

Firstly it is questionable whether he discovered America, as there are numerous other claimants to that honour. Secondly the point stands as Columba University cancelled Columbus day not in favour of St Brendan, but as a Political Correct reaction to Columbus.

Try not to change the goalposts while debating this subject.

The last claim is very impotant but all the others are trivial and/or dishonest.

TBH, reading at your assessment of many of those points, it seems pretty obvious that the only person being dishonest here is yourself.

w66w66

mountainyman wrote:

However this Anthony Browne is not a doctor. That does not mean what he says is not true but I find it hard to believe that the English medical establishment would not be up in arms if this were true and government policy were being formulated in willful opposition to the facts.

MM

That’s part of the point, as Anthony Browne pointed out, he merely had to look at the government tables on HIV, to establish that African migration was mainly responsible for the increases in HIV, and yet the medical establishment wasn’t talking about it and the government was in a clear state of denial about it. Thankfully that’s now no longer the case. http://www.hpa.org.uk/hpa/news/articles/press_releases/2004/041124_hiv_annual_report.htm

rsynnott

The Corinthian wrote:

That discussions of racial distinction and difference are impossible: Incorrect

Actually it’s pretty difficult. Even here, on the Humanities board it’ll get you banned in a heartbeat.

Only if you refuse to make proper argument, and back up that argument. There seems to be a large intersection between people who enjoy discussing racial difference and people incapable of making a proper argument if their life depended on it.

The Corinthian wrote:

That someone was sacked for saying Niggardly in America: True but is this an example of PC or of stupidity?

If you don’t like the evidence presented against Political Correctness you redefine it as stupidity instead? Try not to be so intellectually dishonest.

Firing someone on the basis that they said something that sounds like a word that most people find offensive is nothing to do with political correctness; it is stupidity.

And banning saying the other word isn't political correctness, it is having some regard for common courtesy.

The Corinthian wrote:

That the ladies toilets in UCD were changed to the women's: True but 10 years ago.

So? This makes it less real?

Nothing to do with political correctness, simply using the language as it is spoken today.

mountainyman wrote:

[*]The rise in HIV in the UK among heterosexuals deriving from African Immigration and not risky sex among the native English and this information being suppressed: Apparently true and Very Very important.

Actually, it's a result of both. And as it is far easier for people to take basic precautions than to shut down all immigration from the African continent, it makes sense to dwell more on the unsafe sex bit, from a public health point of view.

mountainyman

The Corinthian wrote:

I’ll address some of your points.

On Travellers
The word traveller superseded the word Itinerant which was in common use from the late 1960s. What about the supersession of the word traveller by the word knacker is that also political correctness.
http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/features/12.4FeatA.html

The Corinthian wrote:

That it is impossible to question the holocaust without being called a Nazi: Incorrect
Utter, utter bullshít. I even went so far as to quote Finkelstein who was not labelled a Nazi only due to his background and that he even believed that were it not for this he would have been.

But Corinithian debate about the holocaust goes on all the time.
Look at the debate between Christopher Browning and Daniel Goldhagen.
Look at Jan Gross's book on the micro history of a Polish Village called Jedawabne and the complicity of Poles in the deportation of their neighbours (and the resistance of some Catholic Poles to that deportation).

The Corinthian wrote:

I’ll address some of your points.
That discussions of racial distinction and difference are impossible: Incorrect
Actually it’s pretty difficult. Even here, on the Humanities board it’ll get you banned in a heartbeat.

Boards is pretty restrictive in terms of what you can say so EVEN doesn't come into it L O L.

The Corinthian wrote:

That someone was sacked for saying Niggardly in America: True but is this an example of PC or of stupidity?
If you don’t like the evidence presented against Political Correctness you redefine it as stupidity instead? Try not to be so intellectually dishonest.

If the person had been sacked for calling a colleague a n**ger would that be Political Correctness? The above is clearly an example of stupidity.

The Corinthian wrote:

...you are rejecting the claim that accusations of misogyny are made to stifle discussion by suggesting that they are warranted. Oddly enough if you were to seek to stifle discussion by accusing someone of misogyny, that’s exactly what you would do.

But again Feminism is a very lively area of debate and intellectual activity as with your claims about the holocaust what you are claiming is not true.

The Corinthian wrote:

That the ladies toilets in UCD were changed to the women's: True but 10 years ago.
So? This makes it less real?

It makes it u****ortant anyway. It is a story about a toilet from 10 years ago.

The Corinthian wrote:

That Columba University cancelled Columbus day:...Columba University cancelled Columbus day not in favour of St Brendan, but as a Political Correct reaction to Columbus.
Try not to change the goalposts while debating this subject.
TBH, reading at your assessment of many of those points, it seems pretty obvious that the only person being dishonest here is yourself.

http://www.columbia.edu/hr/benefits/ssbib-2005/vacation/index.html

Columbus Day is a recognised holiday at Columbus University...


Why is the word N I M P coming up as starred what does it mean?

MM

samb

mountainyman wrote:

[*]That Columba University cancelled Columbus day: True but St Brendan discovered America and the Yanks should celebrate St Brendan's day instead
MM

I believe that it is a little racist it say that Columbus or St Brendan dicovered America because there were already people there. Didn't the some ancestors of native americans discover it thousands of years before? Is this view PC or just correct, or both?
I have no problem however with somebody questioning this view.

The Corinthian

rsynnott wrote:

Only if you refuse to make proper argument, and back up that argument. There seems to be a large intersection between people who enjoy discussing racial difference and people incapable of making a proper argument if their life depended on it.

Yet it is only those subjects that are considered politically incorrect that are subjected to such high standards. Otherwise feel free to cite the last time that someone got banned for making similar claims about dead white guys.

Firing someone on the basis that they said something that sounds like a word that most people find offensive is nothing to do with political correctness; it is stupidity.

I’m sorry but you cannot cherry pick those things that you like about Political Correctness and label the excesses as something else. This entire thread was predicated upon the belief that the excesses of Political Correctness were exaggerated or even myths. So whether they were born as a result of overzealous idiocy or otherwise they are still excesses of Political Correctness.

And banning saying the other word isn't political correctness, it is having some regard for common courtesy.

Only if you’re an illiterate moron. I don’t think the two words even have a common entomological root. It’s right up there with an earlier (joke) suggestion to rename Germany to Gerpersony so as not to offend Femminists.

Nothing to do with political correctness, simply using the language as it is spoken today.

Seriously, are people sitting close to a car exhaust as they post here?

Other than the fact that I would dispute that it is the language as it is spoken today, even if it were is immaterial. If we had some new and successful campaign to rename those same toilets to Womyn or similar, it would still be an example of an excess of Political Correctness regardless of whether it changed our vocabulary or not.

No doubt some genius would point out in a decade that it’s simply the language as it is spoken then too.

w66w66

rsynnott wrote:

Actually, it's a result of both..

It is a result of both, but as the health protection agency points out its predominately due to sub-Saharan African migration.

rsynnott wrote:

And as it is far easier for people to take basic precautions than to shut down all immigration from the African continent, ..

Wrong, as the health protection agency points out, each case of HIV costs 500,000 to 1 million pound. The number of HIV cases diagnosed every year has increased over 100% in five years from 139 cases to 341 cases. That’s an increase in costs of between 100 million and 200 million pounds a year and the number of cases is still increasing. This is all predominately due to sub-Saharan African migration. The easier solution would be to have a screening process on African migration, but that would probably be too politically incorrect.

mountainyman

w66w66 wrote:

...This is all predominately due to sub-Saharan African migration...

Yes but the department of health has no influence on immigration that is the home office's job.
So why would they spend money on it.
This is a very interesting example and well done for digging it out.
MM

The Corinthian

mountainyman wrote:

On Travellers
The word traveller superseded the word Itinerant which was in common use from the late 1960s.
http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/features/12.4FeatA.html

Where’s that said in the article you supplied?

Actually you’ll find that the word itinerant was largely a legal definition and was still in use in court, AFAIR, in the early nineties (if not later). Indeed (looking over the article you supplied) the terms itinerant and tinker are used extensively well into the late seventies, which would go against your claim.

What about the supersession of the word traveller by the word knacker is that also political correctness.

Do you actually know what Political Correctness is?

But Corinithian debate about the holocaust goes on all the time.
Look at the debate between Christopher Browning and Daniel Goldhagen.
Look at Jan Gross's book on the micro history of a Polish Village called Jedawabne and the complicity of Poles in the deportation of their neighbours (and the resistance of some Catholic Poles to that deportation).

Again with the intellectual dishonesty. The debate is open as long as you don’t challenge its existence or downwardly revise in any way the numbers of Jews killed.

Boards is pretty restrictive in terms of what you can say so EVEN doesn't come into it L O L.

Cherry picking again?

If the person had been sacked for calling a colleague a n**ger would that be Political Correctness? The above is clearly an example of stupidity.

I’ve already addressed this with rsynnott - you cannot pass the buck on stupid people who follow an ideology when it does not suit you. Have the balls to accept that.

But again Feminism is a very lively area of debate and intellectual activity as with your claims about the holocaust what you are claiming is not true.

Just because you say so? Sorry, given your track record in intellectual dishonesty in this discussion, I’m not going to simply take your word for it.

It makes it u****ortant anyway. It is a story about a toilet from 10 years ago.

Again, I’ve already addressed this with rsynnott and again you can’t cherry pick those examples you like and pass off those you don’t in such a cavalier a manner.

Columbus Day is a recognised holiday at Columbus University...

Not on the campus which is what we were discussing.

lostexpectation

blackbuster wrote:

I'm a liberal and as you can imagine I'm also very PC and proud. Political Correctness is essential to stamp out freedom of speech which is dangerous for the economy. TV programs like the late late show is showing the way for the pc future.

PC and proud!

hahhahah lol you are comedy

mountainyman

The Corinthian wrote:

Actually you’ll find that the word itinerant was largely a legal definition and was still in use in court, AFAIR, in the early nineties (if not later). Indeed (looking over the article you supplied) the terms itinerant and tinker are used extensively well into the late seventies, which would go against your claim.

It doesn't go against my claim please reread what I wrote.
I cannot accept your claim to be an expert on the word 'itinerant' as you denied such knowledge earlier today.

The Corinthian wrote:

Again with the intellectual dishonesty. The debate is open as long as you don’t challenge its existence or downwardly revise in any way the numbers of Jews killed.

No you said that it was impossible to question the holocaust.
You didn't say 'it is impossible to deny the holocaust without being called a nazi'. I
Academic estimates for the dead run from 4.5 to 7 million. So as regards the 'six million' the figure has been revised down by some people who have not been called Nazis. So you are wrong.

The Corinthian wrote:

I’ve already addressed this with rsynnott - you cannot pass the buck on stupid people who follow an ideology when it does not suit you. Have the balls to accept that.

What is the point that you are making here.

On Feminism
Camille Paglia is a feminist and so is Naomi Wolff, that alone is evidence of intellectual debate within feminism.
So you are wrong

Columbia University
What makes you think that the campus is open?


MM

metrovelvet

First of all I used to work for Columbia. NO ONE HAD COLUMBUS DAY OFF. [And I also saw many of the files pertaining to affirmative action btw which were incredibly telling]. Well the Irish already have St Patricks day so they dont need St. Brendans, plus St. Brendan didnt do much to publicise his discovery. But saying that, St. Patricks is also un PC which is why Act Up in 199? went into the cathedral took the eucharist and then collectively spat them on the floor. Charming eh?

For PC feminists or radicals or even post-feminists like Naomi Wolf, yes mysogyny will be tossed at you. And if you even question that their motives arent good for women, then you have succumbed to patriarchy. Apparantly celebrating Christmas is also succumbing to patriarchy. Dont ask me how. I cant remember how they came up with that one. And these same groups will defend hijabs.

I understand the ADL to be left wing but supports right wing policy when it comes to Isreal. So I guess that underscores TCs point about it being more and more difficult to make distinctions.

It makes perfect sense to have an HIV screening process. And why is no one talking about how all this money sent to Africa enables their irresponsible sex practises? Oh no.... cant say that....

Freelancer

metrovelvet wrote:

It makes perfect sense to have an HIV screening process. And why is no one talking about how all this money sent to Africa enables their irresponsible sex practises? Oh no.... cant say that....

Um what we're funding african sex orgies now?

fly_agaric

metrovelvet wrote:

Apparantly celebrating Christmas is also succumbing to patriarchy. Dont ask me how. I cant remember how they came up with that one

I know... Santa and his big sack or the "balls" on the tree. Shoot me now...

w66w66

Here’s a topical story on the issue
http://www.kctv5.com/Global/story.asp?S=4674778
Ironically this chap Lenihan was praising Condi Rice when he made what he claimed was a "slip of the tongue" racial slur. Tim Dorsey the guy who sacked him accepted that it was a slip of the tongue but said that doesn’t excuse it. Should he have been fired?

fly_agaric

She's African-American, which would kind of be a big coon. A big coon.

Upshot of his slip-of-the-tongue was he racially insulted his guest twice on air! "Coon" is as bad as the "n-word" really, isn't it?
Sacking seems a tad harsh IMO but perhaps he needs a long holiday and maybe he is in the wrong job if he manages to put his foot in his mouth like this.