Am I really an "Agnostical Atheist'?

Aporia

Okay this has been bothering me for quite some time now...

I think there could be a higher power. Nobody knows so I aint wasting my life dedicating myself to something that might be a load of siht. The more than likely thing (which only the minority of people can accept) that will happen is: you die, your brain will rot (obviously like every other tissue in your body) and your mind is your brain so you'll be nothing.

I don't believe in a "soul". I think the mind makes up a soul. Your mind is everything and that will be gone when your heart stops beating.

I don't believe in a afterlife at all, not even a tiny bit. You need to be alive, you need your brain and your mind to experience things and without that you don't exist. But maybe there could be a higher power...maybe but it won't matter when you die. The reason why I think there could be a higher power is because of the unknown...all the unknown out there. A higher power could be for example another race out there somewhere in the universe that created humans for observation.

I think, after a bit of research that I could be refered to as an agnostical atheist...but I really don't know.
It's very depressing to think this way but I can't help it. I would love to believe in a "God" at least I would have hope then but my common sense won't let me.

Also if I ever have childen I won't brainwash them from a young age like lots of parents seem to do. I'll let them decide for themselves since everyone is different. That's why I don't agree with organised religion. If everyone is different then I can't see how millions of people "believe" in the same thing. Any oraganised religion is a cult. If you're constantly told by your parents from a young age that there is a God chances are you'll end up believing it. If you told a child that apples where Gods and went to a building everyday with hundereds of people praying to apples they'd believe it since the concept would have never been dismissed and seen as ridiculous. That's what a cult does it brainwashes you. But then I can't say that about everyone. Some people come from very religious families and are Atheists or whatever.

Sorry about that rant. Is this being agnostical or atheist (not knowing but leaning towards atheism) or both... I really don't get it.

It sounds like "I don't know and I'm not interested" to me

I'm not sure either would cover it.

Aporia

Oh but I'm very intrested in knowing. If it's neither I'd probably just say I've my own religious beliefs which is completely normal since everyone has different opinions and stuff. I admire Bertrand Russell for the people who are unaware of who he is at this stage you should check him out.

*edit* Just to add in - I guess you can't really say that I'm unintrested in this topic since I started a topic on it trying to find out but then again who says what we are. Do we really have to fall into catagories for everything? *edit*

Scofflaw

Well, I class myself as an atheist, and I came to it along a road that includes somewhere very similar to where you are.

I still cannot discount the existence of a higher power, either - no-one can, although many would like to argue that they can do so (there's a bit of a thread about that). On the other hand, I can't see any evidence of benign intervention by a higher power, nor can I see any evidence for an afterlife.

In the end, I wound up with the statement "there is either no higher power, or no higher power worth worshipping". Practically speaking, they wind up being the same thing, except that there's always the proviso that you might burn eternally in a lake of fire if certain sects are correct.

Live every life as if it was your last, basically. Those who try to persuade you to give your only life over to the dictates of a religion in the hopes of a better "life to come" are worse than fools.

"And if the wine you drink, the lip you press,
End in the nothing all things end in - yes,
Then fancy while thou art, thou art but what
Thou shalt be - Nothing - Thou shalt not be less"


cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Aporia wrote:

Okay this has been bothering me for quite some time now...

I think there could be a higher power.

If you accept that there is a reasonable possibility that their exists a "God", but you think it is probably not likely, you are an agnostic.

Its like saying "I might win the school raffle, but I probably won't". You don't think you will win, but you still think you might.

An atheist would say "I'm not going to win the school raffle, in fact their isn't a school raffle to begin with".

I am an atheist, and like you would like to believe in God but logic and reason won't let me. I don't believe in an after life but I hope in one (there is a difference), but I don't waste my time trying to reason or justify one.

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

"And if the wine you drink, the lip you press,
End in the nothing all things end in - yes,
Then fancy while thou art, thou art but what
Thou shalt be - Nothing - Thou shalt not be less"

Thats beautiful. Thank you.

Scofflaw

All credit to the Fitzgerald translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.


humbly,
Scofflaw

Aporia

Wicknight wrote:

If you accept that there is a reasonable possibility that their exists a "God", but you think it is probably not likely, you are an agnostic.

I think the main part that confuses me is that I don't believe in an afterlife but then at the same time I accept the posibility of a higher power. But I'm just going to settle on Agnostic.

Some people might say - how can you be so sure that an afterlife does not exist, you haven't experienced death? but it's just plain logic if you think about it once you rot away - your gone.

But then I ask the question how can you be so sure that a higher power doesn't exist? There's always the possiblity that there is another race out there, superior to humans. I doubt very much that we're alone in the Universe considering its scale. What I'm basically saying is that there could be a superior race that would be considered a higher power. The concept of a one "God" is ridiculous really.

I can't see any evidence of benign intervention by a higher power

Neither can I or anyone for that matter but I still can't dismiss the it entirely because there still is the posibility.

Zombrex

Aporia wrote:

But then I ask the question how can you be so sure that a higher power doesn't exist?

No idea what you mean by "higher" power ... what is with the word higher these days, there is another thread with "higher" consciousness going on two.

Aporia wrote:

There's always the possiblity that there is another race out there, superior to humans.

There is, but that doesn't make them Gods. Don't you watch Stargate SG1??

Aporia wrote:

I doubt very much that we're alone in the Universe considering its scale.

Nothing to do with Atheism, or Agnosticism for that matter. These concern God(s).

Aporia

Wicknight wrote:

No idea what you mean by "higher" power

By higher power I mean the creator of everything we see today

There is, but that doesn't make them Gods. Don't you watch Stargate SG1??

Nope don't watch it but I'm not calling other races "god" I'm taking about the possibility of a certain race creating us. Like say for instance us as humans decide to create a new race, (which is obviously impossible) we would be a "God" to them.

Crucifix

Aporia wrote:

But then I ask the question how can you be so sure that a higher power doesn't exist? There's always the possiblity that there is another race out there, superior to humans. I doubt very much that we're alone in the Universe considering its scale. What I'm basically saying is that there could be a superior race that would be considered a higher power. The concept of a one "God" is ridiculous really.

Sounds to me like you believe in a scientific universe, and that a god could exist in it. Or outside it or whatever the logistics are. But because it's a scientific universe, regardless of God you believe death is the end.

Zombrex

Aporia wrote:

we would be a "God" to them.

No, not really. Just because we create them doesn't mean we have God like powers over them. We create new strains of bateria and virus all the time, doesn't mean we can part the sea or make frogs fall from the sky.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

No, not really. Just because we create them doesn't mean we have God like powers over them. We create new strains of bateria and virus all the time, doesn't mean we can part the sea or make frogs fall from the sky.

I'm not sure bacteria would notice such things, as being too large-scale. On the other hand, I suspect that we can do things that a bacterium would consider miraculous (if they ever did such considering), such as parting the nutrient substrate, or making rains of molecules...


regards,
Scofflaw

Julesie

Wicknight wrote:

No, not really. Just because we create them doesn't mean we have God like powers over them. We create new strains of bateria and virus all the time, doesn't mean we can part the sea or make frogs fall from the sky.

I think you are viewing the term "god" in a very narrow spectrum. I dont believe anyone visiting this forum other than trolls envisage a man with a white beard sitting on a cloud deciding what happens to us earthlings via the parting of seas.

Although I wouldn't subscribe to the view of their being a higher power in the form of another race which created us, I can still see why someone else might. Just as some people refer to Nature as a god as it is an intangible force that sustains life on the planet.

I would come from the school of though that we are just the product of evolution and it would be naive to think we are at the end of the evolutionary cycle. Given a sufficiently large timescale who is to say that we couldnt be the 'higher power' who has created another race.

Anywhoo, just some food for thought.

Zombrex

Julesie wrote:

I think you are viewing the term "god" in a very narrow spectrum.

I'm viewing the term "god" within the spectrum of the definition of the word "god"

An alien race with vaster intelligence aren't gods, any more than we are gods compared to dogs or bateria. That isn't what the term "god" means We obey the same rule of nature and physics as anything else. A god wouldn't, by definition. Just because we are more intelligent and advance than a rabbit or a elephant doesn't mean anything in relation to Gods

Julesie wrote:

I dont believe anyone visiting this forum other than trolls envisage a man with a white beard sitting on a cloud deciding what happens to us earthlings via the parting of seas.

Probably not considering this is a Atheist thread, but I would imagine people visiting the Islamic, Jewish and Christian threads imagine some for for of God

Aporia

Wicknight wrote:

No, not really. Just because we create them doesn't mean we have God like powers over them. We create new strains of bateria and virus all the time, doesn't mean we can part the sea or make frogs fall from the sky.

Well I guess God means different things to different people.
Maybe there are aliens out there who have Godlike powers over us...who knows?

Asiaprod

Aporia wrote:

It's very depressing to think this way but I can't help it. I would love to believe in a "God" at least I would have hope then but my common sense won't let me. Sorry about that rant. Is this being agnostical or atheist (not knowing but leaning towards atheism) or both... I really don't get it.

The first thing I would say is don`t apologies about the rant. I`ve seen rants and this is not one of those.
The nice thing about the Atheists /Agnostics forum is they tolerate us Buddhists, who are also atheist by the way. Some are even Agnostic. The only point I would like to address here is that as you have said you would love to believe in a God so then at least you would have hope. I have a lot of hope, I have a reason to live in this life and I am very contented. I of course also have bad days (especially when creationism rears its ugly head)., but I too have no God.
My god is replaced by the Buddhist philosophy I follow. In my case, I find I only need this to be happy. Maybe you might like to look at that side of the coin. I believe it is the ideals and way we live our lives that make us happy and not by holding membership in any organization. Quite frankly, For the record, I see more Buddhist ideals expressed among my fellow Atheists/Agnostics here and a smattering of people I hold in high regard on the Christianity forum.

Dades

Aporia wrote:

Well I guess God means different things to different people.
Maybe there are aliens out there who have Godlike powers over us...who knows?

I think it's difficult enough to pigeonhole ourselves as atheist/agnostic without opening up the definition of gods.

As wicknight has suggested, we need to draw a line. If we discover that humans were created by a hyper-intelligent alien race, those aliens do not become gods - they replace them. To suggest otherwise echos that need for gods that has perpetuated their existence since history began.

Gods are not just very, very clever aliens.

CodeMonkey

The Atheist wrote:

Gods are not just very, very clever aliens.

No but I bet god created them clever aliens...

Zillah

Wicknight wrote:

I'm viewing the term "god" within the spectrum of the definition of the word "god"

The phrase "all intents and purposes" comes to mind. Sure, an Alien race can't technically be Gods, but if they are advanced/evolved enough then they may for all intents and purposes be Gods.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote:

The phrase "all intents and purposes" comes to mind. Sure, an Alien race can't technically be Gods, but if they are advanced/evolved enough then they may for all intents and purposes be Gods.

No, not really. As Atheist points out, only if we have to have something as a God.

A super intelligence race of aliens that created biological life on Earth are not Gods, they are just a super intelligent race of aliens. Even if we think they are gods, they are still not gods by any definition of the term "god" that I'm aware off.

Simply being better at something than us doesn't make you a God. If I went back in time (impressive in of itself) and showed a Roman a television they might think I was using the magic of the Gods. But I'm not, I'm just using a television.

Seriously, you should all watch Stargate SG1 .. its all in there!

Scofflaw

There seems to be a confusion here between "godlike" and "God". The advanced aliens might have powers that we considered godlike - as they say, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to the primitive. They might even have created us. As wicknight says, though, so what?

Only if we choose to bow down and worship them are we setting them up as Gods - a fallacy exactly equivalent to a remote tribe worshipping a Western explorer because of the latter's technology.


cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

Scofflaw wrote:

Only if we choose to bow down and worship them are we setting them up as Gods - a fallacy exactly equivalent to a remote tribe worshipping a Western explorer because of the latter's technology.

What if they told us that they created us, and that we must worship them?
Sure that'd be just weird.

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

What if they told us that they created us, and that we must worship them?

Then you'd want to be pretty certain before you decided to declare yourself an atheist...


cordially,
Scofflaw

Aporia

Asiaprod wrote:

The only point I would like to address here is that as you have said you would love to believe in a God so then at least you would have hope. I have a lot of hope, I have a reason to live in this life and I am very contented. I of course also have bad days (especially when creationism rears its ugly head)., but I too have no God.

I meant I'd love to believe in a God so it would give me hope for an afterlife. Of course I still have hope not having a God You can't live without hope reminds me of a Dickenson poem "Hope is a thing with feathers..."

If we discover that humans were created by a hyper-intelligent alien race, those aliens do not become gods - they replace them.

So are you saying the defintion of God is not based on man made assumptions?

Simply being better at something than us doesn't make you a God.

I understand that a race that created humans is only a higher power and not a God but what if it was one Alien that created us. An alien that had powers to control everything that goes on in Earth.

Dades

Aporia wrote:

So are you saying the defintion of God is not based on man made assumptions?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The definition is based on what the general perception of a "god" is. Whether or not gods were invented by man is irrelevant.

Aporia wrote:

I understand that a race that created humans is only a higher power and not a God but what if it was one Alien that created us. An alien that had powers to control everything that goes on in Earth.

I think I'd need to know more about if there were other aliens, or other earths. Though he'd be going down the god route alright. I like my gods to have a little more input - ones that let us know they're watching us.