Unpaid rent of son

LegacyUser

Hi there,
im looking for help regarding a letter i got recently in the post. It was from a property management company for an apartment complex in Dublin, a place in which my son was recently a resident. He has since left there for somewhere else. The letter however was addressed to me. It is in relation to rent arrears still owed for the apartment, an amount over 2000Euro. Unbeknownst to me, i was named as guarantor on the lease for this apartment, my son even signed my name on it too.

I have spoken to him about this, but he has not got the money to pay the owed rent. He doesnt want me to pay the rent either(i had no intention of doing so anyway). His opinion is that the property company cant trace him so he doesnt intend paying up, and that since i myself never agreed or signed as guarantor, that i cant be held responsible either.

Another issue he mentioned to me that im not too sure about...The apartment complex is a Section 50 student complex, yet my son was not a student at the time of living there. And under one of the terms of the Agreement(lease) which he gave me and which i have in front of me, it says

"This Agreement is only valid for so long as the Tenant remains a full time student at a 3rd level college approved by the landlord. If the Tenant ceases to be such a registered full-time student this Agreement will be revoked."

Am I to take it from that, that the lease is actually void, and that neither of us is in fact accountable for the rent in arrears?

Im not asking for moral advice in relation to this matter or my son, i have already let him know how i feel, but i do need legal advice or otherwise, as i dont want to be held accountable for this issue myself.
Thanks for any help,

Worried Mum

Beruthiel

hi
if you had not gone unregged, I could have moved this to the Legal Discussion Forum, you may get more useful advice there.

But I have to say, the fact that he forged your sig means you are not responsible for something you never signed for. It would never hold up in any court.
B

plenderj

But don't expect the management company not to get heavy handed about it.

I'd just ignore all correspondance about it. I doubt they'd goto the effort of attempting to bring anyone to court - it'd cost too much

Hagar

Very dodgy ground here. Your son forged a legally binding document. He knew that he was not a student, the landlord may not have or may have been misled by your son. You cannot be held liable for you son's actions but your son most definitely will be. I very much doubt that the landlord is going to write off €2000 all that easily. I know I wouldn't. I can only presume that if it went to court he would be seeking his legal costs too so legal fees may not put him off.

Sleepy

You may not be responsible for the debt, however, the fact your son forged your signature would render what he did to be fraud. I'd suggest you drag him to the bank, make him take out a loan and make the pup pay his debts.

Beruthiel

plenderj wrote:

I doubt they'd goto the effort of attempting to bring anyone to court - it'd cost too much

you are totally wrong there I'm afraid, having lived in an apt. complex myself, where some people did not pay their fees, they were brought to court and were made to pay their debts and the legal fees involved.

sleepys idea is the best, let him get a loan, a job and pay his debts.
He is an adult, responsible for his own actions and needs to learn that there is no such thing as a free ride.

p.pete

plenderj wrote:

But don't expect the management company not to get heavy handed about it.

I'd just ignore all correspondance about it. I doubt they'd goto the effort of attempting to bring anyone to court - it'd cost too much

You're joking? for E2000 they'd be quite serious about it - and if they decide not to chase you for the money then they'll pass the debt onto a reclaiming company who will definitely chase it, that's their business.

Sounds like you have no liability over it though - for the simple fact that your signature was forged so you didn't enter into an agreement with any of the parties involved. You'll have to explain this to them though (or possibly to their lawyers / a judge) because until you do as far as they're concerned you're the gaurantor (and therefore liable). Of course this'll mean that your son is not only in arrears for the money owed but also possibly in trouble for identity theft / fraudulance.

With regard to the contract being null and void - you'd probably have to show it to somebody and seek legal advice on it. Again it could be just a case that your son is in yet more trouble for living somewhere under false pretenses.

Boston

Worried Mum wrote:

I have spoken to him about this, but he has not got the money to pay the owed rent. He doesnt want me to pay the rent either(i had no intention of doing so anyway). His opinion is that the property company cant trace him so he doesnt intend paying up, and that since i myself never agreed or signed as guarantor, that i cant be held responsible either.

You son is an idiot. They already traced you down, if the police become involved, which they can, they would trace him down from you in a matter of minutes. If you go down the "My son forged my name" you'll be giving your son allot more problems then a 2000 euro debt. How does a criminal record sound. Whats the bottoms line here, do you feel that some land lord "or faceless company" should swallow this, that your son can go through life forging names and not paying rent.

Another issue he mentioned to me that im not too sure about...The apartment complex is a Section 50 student complex, yet my son was not a student at the time of living there. And under one of the terms of the Agreement(lease) which he gave me and which i have in front of me, it says

"This Agreement is only valid for so long as the Tenant remains a full time student at a 3rd level college approved by the landlord. If the Tenant ceases to be such a registered full-time student this Agreement will be revoked."

Am I to take it from that, that the lease is actually void, and that neither of us is in fact accountable for the rent in arrears?

Thats not what that means at all, If he stayed there while he wasn't a students then he lied to the landlord.

Im not asking for moral advice in relation to this matter or my son, i have already let him know how i feel, but i do need legal advice or otherwise, as i dont want to be held accountable for this issue myself.
Thanks for any help,

Worried Mum

Go to the citizens advice department or equilvalent.

hepcat

You will be dragged into it, if only to prove that your signature is forged.

The management company will definitely not leave the matter lie, as already pointed out they will bring you and your son (if they can find him) to the District court and will seek their costs on top of the 2000 (these costs could amount to another 1000, at least). They may do this themselves or through a debt collection agency.

(Did you son not have to provide somethng other than your name and address when forging your sig as guarantor?)

Go to a Citizens advice bureau / persuade your son to come to some arrangement to pay this debt. Even the managemtn co may accept something like 200/400 a month once your son does not default on any payments. He may not care about it now, but if he is registered in Stubbs gazette or similar he may regret it later in life if he is even ni need of a bank loan or is looking for a mortgage etc

Miss Fluff

Sleepy wrote:

I'd suggest you drag him to the bank, make him take out a loan and make the pup pay his debts.

What a nightmare for you! I agree with Sleepy. His mess, let him sort it out.

Hagar

Sleepy wrote:

I'd suggest you drag him to the bank, make him take out a loan and make the pup pay his debts.

Erm.. don't go as guarantor.

Citizen Jake

I think the burning issue here is not just the money but your son's moral attitude. He thinks he can fraud his way through life, and if you allow him to carry on like this it will catch up with him - and you - eventually. Heck, it already has. It disgusts me that he thinks they'll just go away and because he frauded your signature you're not liable. Consider this: if he managed to forge your name as guarantor for a lease, could it be possible that he's used your identity for other things too, perhaps your credit cards, getting a bank loan, etc. I don't mean to worry you but he has already taken one liberty and by rights you should be as mad as hell. Let him away with this now and who knows what trouble he'll blunder into next.

What kind of man do you want your son to be. A coward that runs away from problems rather than facing up? A skinflint who cons people into giving him accommodation and then runs off without paying up? A morally bankrupt fool that leaves his poor mother to pick up the pieces? Do your son a favour and tell him to get a job and pay people what they are owed. Get him to think about his actions.

gandalf

Sleepy wrote:

You may not be responsible for the debt, however, the fact your son forged your signature would render what he did to be fraud. I'd suggest you drag him to the bank, make him take out a loan and make the pup pay his debts.

Best advice I have seen on here. Your son committed fraud and the management company will pursue him to get their money back.

Best for him to stand up like a man and take responsibility for his actions.

I think you should knock seven shades of sh!te out of him for forging your name as well.

Blub2k4

gandalf wrote:

I think you should knock seven shades of sh!te out of him for forging your name as well.

Genius idea, and the best part of this plan is that as a cat mod you dont even have to get banned for advocating physical violence.

Nevyn

gandalf wrote:

I think you should knock seven shades of sh!te out of him for forging your name as well.

Gahhh Gandalf you know better.
The advocating of the use of volience to resolve any matters is a banning offense in this forom.

Do read the charter and abide by the rules while posting in this forum.
Have a nice day,
Thaedydal

segadreamcast

Thaedydal wrote:

Gahhh Gandalf you know better.
The advocating of the use of volience to resolve any matters is a banning offense in this forom.

Do read the charter and abide by the rules while posting in this forum.
Have a nice day,
Thaedydal

I think *think* it was meant to be humourous :rolleyes: this forum, eh?

...Sleepy's right though: do not let this fester. You now have knowledge of it - surely too much hesitation on your part would make you a party to this fraud? "Oh, I know he signed my name and owed debts - but did nothing about it because he said it'd go away". Make him get a loan and sort this.

Ivan

I think regardless of whatever happens, dont admit to anyone that he forged your signature. Apart from that, feel free to ignore them and have it affect your/his credit rating.

gilroyb

As has already been mentioned, they will take their (legitimate) claim against you. The only way for you to avoid this is to say what your son did. This will see him charged with fraud and impersonation, as well as leaving himself open to other similar charges. If you refuse to go to the guards about your son's fraud, then you cannot claim that you did not endorse being signed on as the guarantor.

One of the two of you has a bill to pay fairly fast. Shielding your son after what he did should not be an option, so he either pays the €2000 or gets charged with fraud (and probably made repay the €2000 as well).

CodeMonkey

Ivan wrote:

I think regardless of whatever happens, dont admit to anyone that he forged your signature. Apart from that, feel free to ignore them and have it affect your/his credit rating.

That's the problem. If she is the guarantor (i.e. not admitting her son forged the signature) as as gurantor she is now legally responsible for paying back the debt.

Agent Smith

NoelRock wrote:

I think *think* it was meant to be humourous :rolleyes: this forum, eh?

...Sleepy's right though: do not let this fester. You now have knowledge of it - surely too much hesitation on your part would make you a party to this fraud? "Oh, I know he signed my name and owed debts - but did nothing about it because he said it'd go away". Make him get a loan and sort this.

just wondering, would any bank manager aprove a loan to someone with a history of bad debts?


I know i wouldnt

LegacyUser

First of all, thanks very much for all the replies thus far, there`s some great advice given.

I have just a couple of extra points to bring up in relation to the issue upon speaking further with my son.
In relation to the guarantor on the lease, the lease was signed when he moved in last september, and at that time i was abroad on holiday, so wasnt available to sign anything. He apparantly mentioned this to the property management company, but they told him to go ahead and sign my name on it regardless.

Also, in relation to it being a Section 50 student apartment complex, he told the management company he wasnt a student at the time of letting(he had just left college), so they told him to make up some details and say he was a student on the application form, just to cover that end of it and to rent the apartment.

I know this doesnt change the obvious issue that what my son did, by not paying the rent is wrong, and that he should pay it back asap before things get out of hand, but surely the management company is at fault, and should also be made to shoulder some of the responsibility for encouraging such behaviour, and in fact endorsing it.

LundiMardi

If i give you a knife, and you go and kill someone, should i be punished for your actions?

The landlord sounds like a cowboy, but all the facts remain.

Rev Hellfire

Firstly assuming he has told you the truth.
Its his word against theirs, and he's the one who's commited fraud on paper.

The simple fact is either you pay up or he does. The question is which one of you do and if you delay how much will it cost.

hepcat

Worried Mum wrote:

First of all, thanks very much for all the replies thus far, there`s some great advice given.

I have just a couple of extra points to bring up in relation to the issue upon speaking further with my son.
In relation to the guarantor on the lease, the lease was signed when he moved in last september, and at that time i was abroad on holiday, so wasnt available to sign anything. He apparantly mentioned this to the property management company, but they told him to go ahead and sign my name on it regardless.

Also, in relation to it being a Section 50 student apartment complex, he told the management company he wasnt a student at the time of letting(he had just left college), so they told him to make up some details and say he was a student on the application form, just to cover that end of it and to rent the apartment.

I know this doesnt change the obvious issue that what my son did, by not paying the rent is wrong, and that he should pay it back asap before things get out of hand, but surely the management company is at fault, and should also be made to shoulder some of the responsibility for encouraging such behaviour, and in fact endorsing it.

Hmm, are you sure he is being honest with you rather than admitting he just went ahead and forged yout signature of his own accord? Sounds very strange for a management company to be that desperate for tenants that they are encouraging them to fake guarantors?

Even if he is being fully truthful, how could he prove that the management comapny persuaded him to fake your signature and his own details so that they could rent to him ?(and run the risk of not getting paid).They are hardly going to admit it, so it is their word against his...and I msut say from a totally objective point of view, his story looks a bit dodgy.

If you agree that he should pay his rent, why don't you ring this management company up and see what arrangements can be made?

CodeMonkey

I know this doesnt change the obvious issue that what my son did, by not paying the rent is wrong, and that he should pay it back asap before things get out of hand, but surely the management company is at fault, and should also be made to shoulder some of the responsibility for encouraging such behaviour, and in fact endorsing it.

Responsbility for encouraging the fraud? That's not the issue here unless you guys get into court etc. Heart of the matter is your son owes rent regardless of what the management company did unless you guys want to go to court to contest the validity of the contract. He doesn't want to pay it because he thinks he can get away with it. If you want to encourage this behaviour from your son then go ahead.

hullaballoo

Can unregged threads not be moved? I thought I remembered seeing unregged threads in S&S before?

Thread would need some editing first, but feel free to move it and I'll do so.

Beruthiel

Worried Mum wrote:

but surely the management company is at fault, and should also be made to shoulder some of the responsibility for encouraging such behaviour, and in fact endorsing it.

you're joking right?
is your son over 18? are you trying to say he's not responsible for his own actions?
Yes, if the management were silly enough to help your son out in this manner, that was a stupid move.
But how exactly does that change the fact that your son did not pay his debt?

hullaballoo

As it happens, the age for financial independence is 23, and not 18 or 21. That means that the parents or guardians of a person under the age of 23 are financially responsible for him. So any delusions you might have about not having to pay are incorrect in the first instance.

Secondly, do you really think that your son is untraceable by the law? If the Fraud Squad landed on your doorstep and asked you where he was, I'm sure that unless you have a penchant for gaol-time, you'd be very quick to let the cat out of the bag.

I would say that you speak very sternly with your son about this issue: fraud is an indictable offence, and white-collar crime (as it is known popularly) is treated very seriously. If you do not pay this money back, and if the lawyers get their teeth into it, I can tell you plainly that you could both be at each other through the bars of a prison cell very quickly.

I would usuallly be more sympathetic towards people who post in this forum, because they are usually quite genuinely worried. In this case, however, I think the matter has a little more gravity attached to it, so I won't sugar-coat it.

Get a solicitor, a good one, and get the rent off your son.

mountainyman

Your son should write to the management company pointing out that he has no assets and offering to make a payment of 500 euro in full and final settlement of the debt.
This will be refused and he should then offer 1000 euro.

The offer should be made without prejudice and this phrase should appear on both letters.

He should send a letter to the company not without prejudice asking for proof that he was ever resident there and that he was there for the relevant dates. Ultimately he will have to pay something but try and minimise it,

MM

LundiMardi

mountainyman wrote:

Your son should write to the management company pointing out that he has no assets and offering to make a payment of 500 euro in full and final settlement of the debt.
This will be refused and he should then offer 1000 euro.

The offer should be made without prejudice and this phrase should appear on both letters.

He should send a letter to the company not without prejudice asking for proof that he was ever resident there and that he was there for the relevant dates. Ultimately he will have to pay something but try and minimise it,

MM

Why?

Just pay what you owe ffs.