[IT letter] Sharp decline in rail freight

NavanJunction1

Madam - Much of the blame for this huge loss of rail freight at a time when use of the roads by heavy goods vehicles is increasing dramatically must fall on the Government, which refuses to recognise the environmental, social and safety advantages of encouraging rail transport. Elsewhere in Europe grants are offered for rail freight services and terminals - but not in Ireland.

Instead, the sale of freight yards and the wholesale scrapping of freight locomotives is encouraged. The sceptical observer might say this is to prevent any "open access" operators being able to start up in the Republic.

Since the 2005 figures from the International Union of Railways were published, the loss of freight traffic to the roads has increased further. Oil trains which operated for Esso between the Dublin North Wall terminal and Sligo have now ceased (as have services to Claremorris). Bulk cement transport to the Tegral factory at Athy is now carried by road. All keg trains currently operating for Guinness and other major breweries are to cease shortly and the business will transfer to the roads. The bulk cement trains to Cork will cease shortly due to the sale of the terminal at Horgan's Quay for redevelopment. EU policy on sugar beet production has also meant that the operation of the "beet specials" from Wellington Bridge to Mallow has also now run its course.

Cork, the Republic's second city, will shortly have no rail freight services whatever. Until last summer, it was served by three container trains daily, cement trains and daily keg beer trains. The loss of all this traffic in so short a period is some indictment of both Government and Iarnród Éireann policy. The closure of the freight yards in Cork will also prevent any future private operator who may wish to operate in the domestic market from serving Cork.

With fuel costs rising, road congestion getting worse, and EU legislation reducing working hours for HGV drivers, is it wise for Government policy (or the lack of it) to allow the nationally owned rail network virtually to pull out of freight? I think not - and I would suggest that the Government act now to preserve the viable alternative to HGVs before it is irreversibly lost. - Yours, etc,

TIM CASTERTON,

Leighton Buzzard,

Bedfordshire,

England.

BendiBus

I don't argue with anything he says, but as a point of principle he should identify himself as a high ranking trainspotter. (In fairness, it may have been the IT saving space by not including this).

SeanW

I've seen this guy hanging around IRN a few times.

D'Peoples Voice

NavanJunction1 wrote:

The loss of all this traffic in so short a period is some indictment of both Government and Iarnród Éireann policy.

TIM CASTERTON,
Leighton Buzzard,
Bedfordshire,
England.

You'd know he's a foreigner, he has absolutely no clue.
Nowhere, and I've read his letter twice does he lay any blame at the feet of unions! Of course, everyone BUT the unions are wrong!

enterprise

So what if he is "a trainspotter". At least he has the cop on to write to the papers - something a lot more of us should be doing!

As far as I see it the facts are as black & white in the letter.

BendiBus

enterprise wrote:

So what if he is "a trainspotter".

Declaration of interest is important. Being "a trainspotter" could influence why he propoes certain viewpoints. Maybe a variety of freight traffic would make his holidays more exciting?

I know that sounds sarcastic. I made it clear I don't disagree with his letter but to make an informed judgement on whether or not his argument has any strength, it's important to know where he's coming from (Luton airport presumably, if he's in Beds. Although he probably arrives via Holyhead :rolleyes: )

Transport21 Fan

He is correct on the sale of freight yards for office developments. He is a high ranking IRN trainspotter type and being typical of that group is mainly made on non-irish taxpayers demanding their hobby be indulged by the Irish public. But I do agree with the overall sentiment of this letter. However the fact that it comes from one of the IRN crowd instantly negates it.

I was under the impression than all the sales of these yards were to fund investment in public transport - If it is being put into CIE pension funds then this is not public transport development.

Either way there is no full transparency concering the realtionship between CIE and Treasury Holdings. I am not saying their is anything dodgy going on here, just that when public assets are being sold off full accountability of were all the profits are going should be out there. How many railcars, miles of track, buses etc has been purchased with the sale of this property and so forth.

As regards Open Access (which is the only salvation for railfreight in Ireland), the CIE unions have already said they'll fight it. So maybe the IRN lads need to stop cultivating infatuations with CIE rail staff and ask them why they are just as much part of the problem as all the other players.

enterprise

Transport21 Fan wrote:

However the fact that it comes from one of the IRN crowd instantly negates it.

Why?

BendiBus

enterprise wrote:

Why?

Because they have a different agenda to the average rail user.

segadreamcast

BendiBus wrote:

Because they have a different agenda to the average rail user.

OK, I'm a bit simple compared to all of you commuting/transport whizzes, but here's my view:

Ireland, as a country, isn't suited to rail freight. It's simply too small - and journeys require the freight to be driven to and from the train station, thus making it more sensible to transport it the whole way by road.

Indeed, that's probably the reason why grants and subsidies aren't given here. We aren't France. In France, or the U.K., rail freight makes sense. In Ireland, it doesn't really.

enterprise

BendiBus wrote:

Because they have a different agenda to the average rail user.

I thought all these lobby groups had the same agenda? To piss each other off and somehow improve the railways, passenger and freight.

Mr. Casterton makes a number of vaild points about the decline in rail freight. After all, last time I checked free speech was allowed in this country, therefore why shoundn't he raise the issue in the national press?

enterprise

It can if the Government actually developed a rail freight plan. The current plan is to do









exactly nothing, freefall!

markf909

Mr. Casterton makes a number of vaild points about the decline in rail freight. After all, last time I checked free speech was allowed in this country, therefore why shoundn't he raise the issue in the national press?

I must write a letter to the Bedfordshire Gazette bemoaning the fact that my Irish taxes are not being spent efficiently in providing rail freight in Bedforshire.:rolleyes:

enterprise

markf909 wrote:

I must write a letter to the Bedfordshire Gazette bemoaning the fact that my Irish taxes are not being spent efficiently in providing rail freight in Bedforshire.:rolleyes:

Least they have railfreight in Beds!

Transport21 Fan

markf909 wrote:

I must write a letter to the Bedfordshire Gazette bemoaning the fact that my Irish taxes are not being spent efficiently in providing rail freight in Bedforshire.:rolleyes:

If the real hidden costs of shipping the thousands of issues of the Financial Times by truck into Bedfordshire are factored into the equation, then it makes sense to ship them in by railfreight.

How much longer must the Stockbroker Belt wait for social justice!

BendiBus

enterprise wrote:

...somehow improve the railways

The definition of an improvement depends on who you are. Mr Casterton's only real interest in rail freight in Ireland is the amount of photographic opportunities it presents. It makes no difference to his day-to-day life via taxation or the road traffic he as to contend with.

Someone living in Ireland and using rail and road has a real interest (in the practical meaning) in how freight gets transported in Ireland.

Again, I'm not arguing against his letter, but questioning his agenda. There's a 'conflict of interest' sticky on this board to deal with such instances. Those of us involved in transport can post here but we're asked to say who we are. I think that's reasonable and would expect similar in letters to the Irish Times. That's all.

markf909

How much longer must the Stockbroker Belt wait for social justice!

Too many passenger trains bringing suits directly into the city!
More freight is needed

enterprise

BendiBus wrote:

Mr Casterton's only real interest in rail freight in Ireland is the amount of photographic opportunities it presents.

It gets better as this thread develops!

If thats his only real interest (somehow I really doubt it) then he shoudn't be writing letters to the IT.

I know, who wants to volunteer to ask him?

Mr Casterton,

Is your only interest in Irish Railfreight the amount of photographic opportunities it presents?

However until his position is clarified I say fair play to him for taking the time out to write this letter and highlighting the issues about the Irish railfreight system (or lack of!). By rights he shouldn't be doing it, Irish residents, i.e. you and me should! :mad:

MarkoP11

The only possible issue here is if this individual is a member of staff with the unnamed UK operator who has expressed an interest in running freight. The company involved has never operated a revenue earned commercial freight service, they don't even own or lease any locomotives. Note this third party has not made themselves known publicly nor have they made any attempt to seek business. This is there right under EU law but they haven't made any moves.

Otherwise show the guy a little respect. We must consider the real world Fact is most freight lost in the last 20 odd years has been lost through 2 simple reasons. Those who left where major bulk customers not an odd container

1. Company ceased trading / left Ireland / closed down / went bankrupt
Bell Lines, Asahi, IFI and Ballincourty.

2. Raw material dried up or no longer required.
Magnasite, Silvermines and now Greencore (beet)

The only business opportunity missed was Lisheen where Irish Rail where refused funding to build a spur line to serve the mine.

As with almost everything else on the rail network the DoT need to put up the cash they are slow to do that for passenger services so little hope for freight

NavanJunction1

MarkoP11 wrote:

lost through 2 simple reasons. Those who left where major bulk customers not an odd container

And don't forget Gypsum Industries..! Strike action

Capt'n Midnight

And of course the Guiness group too.

Of course the port tunnel is an absolute bargin compared to a building a rail link into Dublin port. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

enterprise wrote:

Why?

Social justice to a trainspotter is having Irish taxpayers pay for the boner in his trousers as he is sitting in a Craven coach, hauled north of Athenry by a 121 class loco.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trainspotting, taking pictures of locos, gricing etc. Good look to them. Compared to sitting in a pub screaming for some British soccer club after 20 pints, trainspotting is a noble hobby.

It only gets sickening when some of these muppets try to use human sufferning in the wake of terrible road accidents to try and fund their hobby. This is immoral and they only end up getting caught which is why all railfreight lobbying in Ireland to date has failed miserably.

Trainspotters represent all strata of Irish society and types of people, however they instantly become social misfits when they attempt to capitalise on HGV accidents and other phoney social issues to prevent 40 year old banger locomotives from being scrapped. Then the truth comes out.

When trainspotters tell you they care about the enviornment, they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about traffic congestion...they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about regional development, they are spoofers...when trainspotters cry crocodile tears over people killed on Irish roads by HGVs, they are spoofers who are bordering on being sociopaths.

Likewise when a trainspotter tells you he wants to see more money invested in railfreight becuase he likes taking pictures of trains. He is a decent, honest and noble person. But alas...

This is why almost everything IRN types state regarding railfreight investment should and is ignored. Most of them have absolutley no regard for anything other than their little trainspotting shutterbug world and more interesting railfan holidays in Ireland.

We all agree with want to see more railfreight if it is possible to do it, and I agree that a lot of railfreight is more viable than the property developers at CIE would have us all believe. The problem with the IRN types and their railfreight lobbying is their bizzare fixation with rural rail lines around Limerick, the Foynes branch and the WRC corridor with little freight trundling back and forth between Waterford and Sligo. This is nothing more than a trainspotter agenda to have as many freight trains in rural locatation for no other reason than the photos look better in trainspotter magazines.

How about a realistic railfreight agenda for Ireland based around the Dublin-Belfast and Cork, rather getting lost is a whacked-out fanatsy world were Sligo is a major city and Foynes is a bigger port than Singapore? Or is a new railfreight distrubution centre near the M50 not trainspotter shutterbug freindly enough for these IRN types who want their Titfield O'Thunderbolt Irish Railway fanatsy world instead and have the taxpayers in Paddyland pay for it all...

Save railfreight, but not with barely hidden spoofery and hollow plaitiudes. Also Casterson might like to look at the real issues such as Irish businessness being terrified to use freight trains because of the selfish loonies in the CIE rail unions going on strike constantly, rather than blaming the Government or looking for taxbreaks.

I also find it MOST interesting how he does not blame IE management as well, as it might piss them off and they might pull the plug on the next heritage loco trip or IRRS lecture.

This is why when an IRN head makes a statement on rail investment, no matter how logical or viable it is instantly negated in the eyes of most people. I am amazed you even have to have it explained to you... :rolleyes:

shamwari

T21F, whats wrong with having an interest in trains or trainspotting. Your persistent wailing on this subject leads me to think that you may possibly have suffered at the hands of one (or more) trainspotter(s) at some stage in the past. Quite frankly, your constant rantings on this subject are getting pathetic. Why have you this latent, overt and even biggoted hatred of them ? You mean even YOU have never photographed a train in the past?

Transport21 Fan

shamwari wrote:

T21F, whats wrong with having an interest in trains or trainspotting. Your persistent wailing on this subject leads me to think that you may possibly have suffered at the hands of one (or more) trainspotter(s) at some stage in the past. Quite frankly, your constant rantings on this subject are getting pathetic. Why have you this latent, overt and even biggoted hatred of them ? You mean even YOU have never photographed a train in the past?

Hi Shamwari,

I could not help but noticing that you just joined this group right after my comments about the truth of trainspotter railfreight lobbying and what it stands for and that this is you're first post to the group. So I'll welcome you here from IRN.

Anyways, if you READ my post you would see that it clearly states there is nothing wrong IMHO with trainspottering or talking pictures of trains and there are a lot worse socially acceptable pastimes such as getting ****face in superpubs. Trainspotter is a harmless hobby and a healthy one. So good luck to them.

I have taken loads of photos of trains. Took some of subways in Boston in the US last week in fact. I love trains. I think they are great. But I do not write letters to the US government demanding them to spend US taxes on my funding hobby. I would not be so low and sad as a person to write letters in the wake of some terrible accidents involving HGVs demanding the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor and freight be put on it so I can take pictures of timber trains on Swinford viaduct. To me that is sick and is a form of grave robbing. More than anything else, if you try to pull the wool over people's eyes by doing this, they soon figure out your real game and it only backfires.

Trainspotters lobbying for rail freight only get found out - this is what I am telling you so get used to the truth. What the alternative then? The only arguments for investment in railfreight are economic and enviornmental. So leave this up to the businesmen and the enviormentalists. But the bottom line remains - if railfreight is to make a come back in IReland (and we all hope it does) it'll only happen if Irish business loses their understandable phobia surrounding the unstable, strike-junkie nature of the the CIE rail unions. All the tax breaks in the world won't make them switch to freight on rails if trucking is a safer bet. After the ILDA carry on of a few years back who can blame them. So instand of blaming the government how about blaming the main culprits - useless CIE managers and CIE rail unions.

Nice try (actually it was a rather pathetic attempt to be honest) trying to undo my points, but having a go at me won't get freight trains on the Foynes branch anymore than that unfortunate Ochatis stalking me on the internet will get him the Western Rail Corridor.

Here is a tip though. Find people who do not have connections to IRN or bemoan the fact that there is "nothing to photograph these days other than railcars" and you might be able to lobby for railfreight.

Anyways congradulations on your first ever post on boards.ie and welcome to the group. You'll find that most of the individuals here are fairly well balanced and make sound argument even though we don't all agree, and unlike most of IRN are actually living here in Ireland. You won't also get your posts deleted by hysterical moderators who are uncomfortable with the truth or your account being canelled for daring to point out that West on Track are full of it.

SeanW

^^^ wot he said ^^^

neilled

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Social justice to a trainspotter is having Irish taxpayers pay for the boner in his trousers as he is sitting in a Craven coach, hauled north of Athenry by a 121 class loco.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trainspotting, taking pictures of locos, gricing etc. Good look to them. Compared to sitting in a pub screaming for some British soccer club after 20 pints, trainspotting is a noble hobby.

It only gets sickening when some of these muppets try to use human sufferning in the wake of terrible road accidents to try and fund their hobby. This is immoral and they only end up getting caught which is why all railfreight lobbying in Ireland to date has failed miserably.

Trainspotters represent all strata of Irish society and types of people, however they instantly become social misfits when they attempt to capitalise on HGV accidents and other phoney social issues to prevent 40 year old banger locomotives from being scrapped. Then the truth comes out.

When trainspotters tell you they care about the enviornment, they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about traffic congestion...they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about regional development, they are spoofers...when trainspotters cry crocodile tears over people killed on Irish roads by HGVs, they are spoofers who are bordering on being sociopaths.

Likewise when a trainspotter tells you he wants to see more money invested in railfreight becuase he likes taking pictures of trains. He is a decent, honest and noble person. But alas...

This is why almost everything IRN types state regarding railfreight investment should and is ignored. Most of them have absolutley no regard for anything other than their little trainspotting shutterbug world and more interesting railfan holidays in Ireland.

We all agree with want to see more railfreight if it is possible to do it, and I agree that a lot of railfreight is more viable than the property developers at CIE would have us all believe. The problem with the IRN types and their railfreight lobbying is their bizzare fixation with rural rail lines around Limerick, the Foynes branch and the WRC corridor with little freight trundling back and forth between Waterford and Sligo. This is nothing more than a trainspotter agenda to have as many freight trains in rural locatation for no other reason than the photos look better in trainspotter magazines.

How about a realistic railfreight agenda for Ireland based around the Dublin-Belfast and Cork, rather getting lost is a whacked-out fanatsy world were Sligo is a major city and Foynes is a bigger port than Singapore? Or is a new railfreight distrubution centre near the M50 not trainspotter shutterbug freindly enough for these IRN types who want their Titfield O'Thunderbolt Irish Railway fanatsy world instead and have the taxpayers in Paddyland pay for it all...

Save railfreight, but not with barely hidden spoofery and hollow plaitiudes. Also Casterson might like to look at the real issues such as Irish businessness being terrified to use freight trains because of the selfish loonies in the CIE rail unions going on strike constantly, rather than blaming the Government or looking for taxbreaks.

I also find it MOST interesting how he does not blame IE management as well, as it might piss them off and they might pull the plug on the next heritage loco trip or IRRS lecture.

This is why when an IRN head makes a statement on rail investment, no matter how logical or viable it is instantly negated in the eyes of most people. I am amazed you even have to have it explained to you... :rolleyes:

To those of us who are naieve to the ways of IRN then yes we do need it explained. I disagree with you strongly on a number of things and you can sound repetitive however you make some good and valid points as well. I would be disappointed to think you were banned from a website on the basis of what you have written here. Being pragmatic if a trainspotter makes a vaild point i wouldn't dismiss it because they are a trainspotter.

Transport21 Fan

neilled wrote:

To those of us who are naieve to the ways of IRN then yes we do need it explained. I disagree with you strongly on a number of things and you can sound repetitive however you make some good and valid points as well. I would be disappointed to think you were banned from a website on the basis of what you have written here.

There are at least 3 people on this board who were banned from IRN for no other reason than questioning the viability of the Western Rail Corridor. Including one here who called a WoT-er a "liar" in a newspaper article which was posted to that group. Perhaps the first time in the history of the internet were somebody has been banned for disagreeing with a quote made in a newspaper piece and not an actual post to the board.

Don't get me wrong they are perfectly entitled to run the group anyways they want and ban whom they like. Apart from their "social justice and rural railways" bull****, I think IRN is a fairly interesting group and most of their posters come across as normal.

I just think when IRN managers were living in the UK and directly lobbying Irish polticians and writing letters to the Irish media claming to be resident in Limerick, then any superficial moral and ethical high ground which they are claiming is a bit of laugh.

The fact that another one of them also writes letters to the Sligo Champion in the wake of death of two people in a HGV accident and then demands the WRC be reopened for freight trains without telling anybody whom he is or who he represents is hardly kosher either.

Also at least one of their managers is a poster here and as yet has not declared themselves in the conflict of interests. But aside from that I have no issue with IRN as a group or trainspotters in general.

As long as they spot trains and do not try to capitalise on human tragedy on Irish roads to make their trainspotting holidays in Ireland more interesting then good luck to them. This is what the muppet who sent that letter to the Times is doing. So if IRN is going to get all ethical maybe they should look at their own behaviour first.

murphaph

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There are at least 3 people on this board who were banned from IRN for no other reason than questioning the viability of the Western Rail Corridor. Including one here who called a WoT-er a "liar" in a newspaper article which was posted to that group. Perhaps the first time in the history of the internet were somebody has been banned for disagreeing with a quote made in a newspaper piece and not an actual post to the board.

Yup, t'was me in fact. IRN is an incredibly paranoid place. I've stopped browsing it altogether. Here on boards and on P11 you get up to date info about worthwhile projects but on a site supposedly dedicated to news about all irish railways, it's all actually about 1960's rolling stock and freight to nowhere. The likes of Luas and metro get little mention, even the interconnector is hardly mentioned, but some Tara Mines trains, now they'd talk for a fortnight about them, and yes, most of them are from Britain and like irish railways because of all the old sh!te rolling stock, thankfully being withdrawn. Good luck to them but when they start lobbying for irish taxpayer's money to be spent on the Burma Rd because it would make a nicve backdrop to their photographs then I have a real problem with them.

shamwari

T21F, I charged you over your attitude to trainspotters. I mentioned nowt about the Western Rail Corridor or the issues of freight on the Irish Rail system. I don't know why you brought these up other than you needed something to pad your rant out with.

I have nothing to do with IRN or any other site, and I take exception to you trying to represent me as someone you clearly know - which you don't. In fact I don't know you at all, and in spite of your denials, I find some of the stuff you have put up here contain in my view, some sort of deep prejudice against train spotters. Your "specific" views on the issues you speak about are things with which I have no difficulty whatsoever. They are completely fine and 100% acceptable. But what is your gripe with train spotters? And in particular why do you systematically single them out for the viscious and sustained attacks which you appear to frequently and unnecessarily make?

Oh by the way, don't bother replying unless it really helps deliver some inner peace to you. I have no interest in wading through another page-long nondescript rant. Go and reflect.........

Transport21 Fan

shamwari wrote:

Oh by the way, don't bother replying unless it really helps deliver some inner peace to you. I have no interest in wading through another page-long nondescript rant. Go and reflect.........

I won't bother replying as you apparently can't read anyways. I never implied you were the IRN mangers on this board btw. But you have to admit that you suddenly appearing like that out of the blue is a bit funny.

as for the inner peace I have the incense burning and the ravi shankar on the CD player and I am going "ommmmmmmmmm...ommmmmmmmmm...".

I think I might be just about to reach Nirvana. No wait sorry, I mean Swinford.

BTW in terms of railways my two main heroes are Lord Beeching and Todd Andrews. They actually made railways relevant to their time the lived in and we need more people like that now - if we did we would have gotten better integration of the metro and DART in T21 and the WRC south of Athenry only. In fact, there is a golden rule - if trainspotter lobbyists hate you, chances are you're talking sense. Lord Beeching and Todd Andrews I salute you!

(I think it is time for another East on Water update)

Sarsfield

shamwari wrote:

And in particular why do you systematically single them out for the viscious and sustained attacks which you appear to frequently and unnecessarily make?

In fairness to T21F, he does appear to treat everyone involved in railways with equal contempt

dr zoidberg

Sarsfield wrote:

In fairness to T21F, he does appear to treat everyone involved in railways with equal contempt

Apart from the RPA of course.

SeanW

dr zoidberg wrote:

Apart from the RPA of course.

And the DoT.

T21-Fan seems to be the only person here who can't see the plan for what it is - a vote buying Ponzi Scheme, even as the wonderful, integrated looks-good-on-paper plan collapses in flames with each passing day.

Spencer Dock? Thought it was going to be a wonderful, integrated station that would link up nicely with the Luas and be able to take trains from the Park Tunnel. ...

The Metro. Skips the Red line Luas. Skips Glasnevin Junction despite it being on the T21 flyer. One P11 member, Philip I belive, went to an RPA open day - the RPA apparetnly wants to do Glasnevin Junction and something decent at O'Connell St but the DoT won't fund it. Sound familiar?

Transport 21 is a great plan - for generating PR and buying votes.

NavanJunction1

SeanW wrote:

Spencer Dock? Thought it was going to be a wonderful, integrated station that would link up nicely with the Luas and be able to take trains from the Park Tunnel. ...

The Metro. Skips the Red line Luas. Skips Glasnevin Junction despite it being on the T21 flyer. One P11 member, Philip I belive, went to an RPA open day - the RPA apparetnly wants to do Glasnevin Junction and something decent at O'Connell St but the DoT won't fund it. Sound familiar?

Broadstone (which will integrate with Luas) anyone...?;)

neilled

SeanW wrote:

And the DoT.?

Transport 21 is a great plan - for generating PR and buying votes.

Gotta agree on that. I'd be for doing the WRC eventually (well the limerick galway bits make sense, but sligo at the moment i think not) but not ahead of navan and other projects.

I'm all for the navan line reopening - anything that makes it easier for me to get in and out of dublin on my way to and from fermanagh on buseireann is welcome.

I do have to agree that T21fan -no offence mate but you do come down a bit hard on them. Perhaps i've yet to discover the issues you have with them and time will tell but for the time being, if a suggestion is made that makes sense then i'd be prepared to listen to it - no matter who it comes from.

Transport21 Fan

Sarsfield wrote:

In fairness to T21F, he does appear to treat everyone involved in railways with equal contempt

How dare you! I have no problem with Platform11, MeathonTrack, the Irish Traction Group and well just about everybody else involved in Irish Railways other than IRN (who don't count cos' their British, and West on track who don't really count either as they are not a railway group in any real sense) - Brian Guckian I adore becuase he is pure entertainment. Mountmellick light rail and Sligo - Donegal Town commuter and the Foyle railway bridge to Letterkenny. Gotta love the guy. He makes the world a more happy place.

The RPA are great. World class engineers and project managers who have worked on some of the biggest civil engineering projects in Europe and Asia while the CIE Railway Engineers were down at the IRRS justifying the half pointy trains because they already had a locomotive. CIE suck at public transport and deserve contempt. Even Jesus would of had them stoned to death.

neilled

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Even Jesus would of had them stoned to death.

My 7 day a week luas experience last year on the redline makes me feel differently to you on the RPA. Longer carriages with the extra section in the middle would have been smart, especially in the mornings. The other thing was - if one part the system went down the whole thing seemed to collapse.

However that quote is a classic!

Is that not a bit harsh on CIE? Bus Eireann have always got me where i wanted to go, in the best possible time, comfort and price!

Transport21 Fan

neilled wrote:

My 7 day a week luas experience last year on the redline makes me feel differently to you on the RPA. Longer carriages with the extra section in the middle would have been smart, especially in the mornings. The other thing was - if one part the system went down the whole thing seemed to collapse.

However that quote is a classic!

Is that not a bit harsh on CIE? Bus Eireann have always got me where i wanted to go, in the best possible time, comfort and price!

You are 100% correct about the Red Line crush loads and the trams should all get the extra 10m sections. But to be fair the allocation and ordering of 30M trams for the Tallaght line was the fault of the CIE light rail office back in the late 1990's. The RPA unlike CIE do run a shuttle service between Hueston and Connolly and the line is busy simply because it is so successful and well, CIE have a rail line between Hueston and Connolly which should of had a shuttle service years ago. The CIE Light Rail Office also were also responsible for the lowering of the Green Line south of Renleagh to grade because they were still designing a guided busway and it was the Government who forced them to put tracks back on the Harcourt Street route.

Being too harsh on CIE? Well I don't know about that. Certainly I am repeating myself concerning them, but they are worthless muppets. Honest, they really are! Irish people have just been conditioned to accept what CIE offer - this is the real issue, not me or anybody else being harsh on them. I have dealth with them face to face - I have see more dynamic and forward thnking individuals who have had labotomies compared to some of the managers in CIE. There were times I felt like sticking pins in them to see if they even had a fully functioning nervous system. My goldfish could do a better job running Irish Rail and he is a thick as ****.

Look at the Phoenix Park route, the half-assed station at Spencer Dock when they had all the room in the world to build a serious station next to the Luas line and the Commuter Rail cars on the Sligo line and the CIE managers telling us all they were Inter-City trains and the "COMMUTER" sticker on the side was a figment of our imagination. The list goes on.

I cannot see how people who know what real public transport is could defend them. Sure they have some decent staff and do the odd thing which works now and again (and I do feel sorry for the good ones in CIE), but they are supposed to do this. We should not be using this to cover up all the other mad rubbish they get up to as we the schmucks who pay our taxes and buy the bus and train tickets are the ones who should be getting a decent service and not one operated according to the limitations of the institutionalised CIE engineers, the lack of vision by CIE managers and the strike junkie nature of the CIE unions. We do not pump milions and millions of our money into CIE for this carry on. It's supposed to be a two way system - we the public pay and they the provider present us with the best service possible. All over the world public transport providers do far more with far less public subsidies that what CIE get. That whole "lack of investment" clause which Barry Kenny whips out stopped being meaningful years ago.

They have had 60 years to develop intergrated public transport and they did things like build bus stations on one side of town with the railway station on the other. They are still up to this crap at Spencer Dock with the Luas. They spoof, they do not reply to customer complaints, they waste our money, they make constant TV ads filled with deceptive images of non-exsistent underground station and trains which are pointy at both ends. They are stagnated with the most bizzare unions culture which goes on "unoffical action" at the drop of a hat without any consideration for the ordinary joe trying to get to work. They destroyed and continue to destroy railfreight. If you compile a list of all the screw-ups and incompetence which have manifested from within CIE you soon realise that they really are as bad as I know they are.

They only way they know how to solve every problem is asking for millions more from the Irish taxpayer and then the problem only gets half sorted and they have a PR event and TV telling us how wonderful they are. There is no reason why Irish people should still be putting up with these muppets after 60 years.

The RPA on the other hand are not perfect. But they have assembled a world-class team of heavy hitters in civil engineering and transit planning who know their stuff and it is simply incredible that they have managed to make two unconnected tram lines in a small European capital carry over 22 million people a year and 90 percent of the problems have been caused by morons behind the wheel of a car hitting the trams.

Again I ask you all, apart from a CIE trade unionist or SIPTU/Labour Party/Semi-States of Fear/Armchair Socialist type, who in their right mind would trust CIE to develop urban rail transit solutions for Ireland from this point going forward? Just look at the last few weeks alone. A total fudge at Spencer Dock, purchasing a hotel chain and putting out a "radical" bus plan which contained proposals which a blind Martian who landed in Dublin 5 minutes and only saw his first BAC bus ago would tell you should have been done decades ago.

Give me the RPA over that mupperty disguised as public transport any day of the week. If this is me being a bit harsh then so be it. But I am praying for the Rapture so I can stand outside Amiens Street with a bag of rocks waiting for the second coming.

neilled

Transport21 Fan wrote:

screw-ups and incompetence which have manifested from within CIE you soon realise that they really are as bad as I know they are.

Well i dealt with translink and they were worse than anything i have experienced on any of the CIE arms.

Again, i stress that i have had a mainly positive experience with Bus Eireann who have always been helpful and managed to find my wallet and actually ensured that i got it!

I sense you have a rather large (justifiable perhaps) chip on your shoulder about Irish rail. Whilst I do see a need for unions and membership of them some of the Irish unions do seem a bit crazy alright, can't comment too much on on that, only been living down south for about 2 years. The dart thing was madness though.

Irish rail i don't use too often on the basis that the bus is cheaper and normally tends to bring me more directly to wherei want to go. At least the coach was probably bought within the last 10 years......

Dublin bus : frequency of services on some routes and the An Lar obsession they seem to have would be my issues. Again i'm from a culchie background where there was only 2 buses into and 3 out of town a day that were a mile and a halfs walk away, so the novelty will eventally wear off.

I have to say, one the most impressive systems i was ever on was the taipei MRT...... and being honest i don't think the RPA would ever be capable of producing anything that is near as good! "Because this is Ireland........."

Transport21 Fan

neilled wrote:

I have to say, one the most impressive systems i was ever on was the taipei MRT...... and being honest i don't think the RPA would ever be capable of producing anything that is near as good! "Because this is Ireland........."

Just wait, what's coming is pretty sensational. I think people will be very pleasantly surprised at what the RPA will deliver with Transport21's Luas and Metro projects. The RPA have the talent, know-how, the understanding of integration which CIE has no concept of, and even with being short-changed with the money allocated to the Metro in T21, the RPA will deliver the most revolutionary rail transport project for this island since Dargan's time.

After that, it'll be "endgame CIE". Mark my words.

Zebra3

Transport21 Fan wrote:

When trainspotters tell you they care about the enviornment, they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about traffic congestion...they are spoofers...when trainspotters tell you they care about regional development, they are spoofers...when trainspotters cry crocodile tears over people killed on Irish roads by HGVs, they are spoofers who are bordering on being sociopaths.

Try replacing 'trainspotters' with 'politicans'.

A Dub in Glasgo

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I

BTW in terms of railways my two main heroes are Lord Beeching

Oh yes, who could forget Beeching. The man who took the British Government remit of proving lines uneconomic with gutso and proceeded to close thousands of train stations and thousands of miles of track. The biggest crime was to sell off a lot of the alignment for development ie housing and business. In the years to come when the British Government realised that they could not run a rail service on economics alone, alignments and stations were lost forever.

Ironic really that the British taxpayer spent/will spend billions of £££ opening up lines and stations that were closed by Beeching. The most recent here in Scotland is the Hamilton to Larkhall line 5 months ago with the Airdrie - Bathgate, Sterling-Alloa-Kincardine and the Edinburgh Borders link following over the next 5-10 years.

One of the worse cases in the Glasgow area was the closure of the Arglye lines under Glasgow City Centre which was reopened in 1979 and is a massively important part of the rail system in Glasgow.

Beeching a hero :rolleyes:

corktina

i think it is accepted that Dr Beeching is the saviour of Britians railways.....without drastic action back then, we would have lost a lot more lines than we did......

NavanJunction1

corktina wrote:

i think it is accepted that Dr Beeching is the saviour of Britians railways.....without drastic action back then, we would have lost a lot more lines than we did......

We?????????????????????????????????????????????????

corktina

NavanJunction1 wrote:

We?????????????????????????????????????????????????

yes we,,,the world of rail fans...or are you only interested in CIE?

NavanJunction1

Ah, sorry. But actually, yes I am much more interested in Irish railways. Whilst the railways of other European countries are of interest to me, I would have to admit that the story of Ryan Tubridy's grandad would be much more relevant to me. Ie, the main player in a process that created the lack of vision in IÉ which exists to this day, and constant pre-election promises about provision of services.

You could probably put me more in the commuting catagory for this thread. Whilst I too have taken pictures of trains and am very interested in rail history, my main interest is rail as means of reducing traffic congestion.

I didn't realise you meant we as in the Irish soccer team definition. Apologies.

corktina

ah yes...the Irish soccer team......even I would be eligible to play i think...might phone and see if I can get a game.....:)

Transport21 Fan

Beeching was a genius and a saviour of the railways in the UK - he felt no obligation to be a slave to railway tradition, nor listen to the hypocracy of rural communities who turned their backs on the railways as soon as they could drive. Sound familiar?

The same people who hate him for closing down rural branch lines and wayside hamlet stations with a few passengers week - forget that he also invented the Liner Train concept which without our own Irish Rail/CIE would have gotten out of the railfreight business years ago.

Beeching revolutionised rail passenger transport in the UK and set the wheels in motion for the glory days of BR engineering in the 1970's/early 80's with the HST and then the APT which was light years ahead of anything else in the world. This was all Beeching legacy. And yet people get hung up on the fact that he closed stations in rural hamlets and consider him as the anti-christ for it as if this was the only aspect of railways which mattered.

When you look at what Beeching did, he actually saved British Railways from rural gentry types who expected a train to serve their manor house or a tiny village in the Cotswolds, were like WestonTrack, the locals who never used the train, had no intention of using the trains, but still demanded the lines be kept open as a tribute to their forefathers as long as they do not have to pay for it.

British Rail held its own in the UK during the age of the motorway expansion and until the privatisation of BR when it had passed it sell-by date and new money was needed for the UK network and only private business had that kind of capital. This was thanks to Beeching who made BR work until it was time for BR to be replaced with a more modern railway model. Like CIE, BR served it purpose for a while and then it was time to move on.

Sure, in time some of the rail lines and stations Beeching closed were reopened. But this was only a tiny percentage of the what was closed and none of them ever opened again other than lots of heritage and steam museum lines.

Most of the people who hate Beeching, have read almost nothing about him other than repeating the chinese-whispers and spittle-flying ravings of British trainspotters. The same eejits who claim that rail privatisation in the UK was a failure even though they ignore there is more passengers and freight on the UK railways since privatisation. The issue with these people is always change and their inability to view railway economics in terms of the wider socio-economic picture. People like Beeching took their fantasy world away from them whereby they assume that railways are run for trainspotter to take photos of and nothing else - he took away their favourite toy.

Just like Maggie Tatcher took away their BR from them in the years to come. What they are really complaining about is that the new rail companies are not using as many locomotive hauled trains as BR did. They want their blue diesels hauling Mk1 coaches to Hollyhead and not railcars. This is why they think privatisation of BR was a failure - no other reason. The same mindset which makes them assume Beeching was evil - these people are lost in the past and cannot grasp change and reality-based, real-world socio-economic dynamics which by their very nature are changing and fluid - nope, they want their Col Stephens Railways back and that's that.

People like Beeching represent change and a break from the tradition. Some people are terrified of change and new thinking in rail transport and prefer traditon, sameness and nostalgia for the past. (see our own homegrown anti-RPA shower for proof). The world has to move on and this includes rail transport. In terms of his rating for doing the right thing during his tenure Beeching gets fairly close to an A+

Todd Andrews on the other hand most certainly gets an A +. And forget the hyperbole guff about the Harcourt Street line as nobody was using it at the time it was closed, and cars were all the rage in the new middle class suburbs along its course. The only unforgiveable thing concerning that period, was the cynical attempted engineering obliteration of the line - but this was CIE management who did this and not Andrews.

The West Cork rail lobby campaign was a masterstroke:

Andrews: "How did you lot get up to Dublin to save you railway then?"

Courtmacsharry-on-Track: "eh, we drove..."

Gotta love the guy.

DerekP11

Don't criticise chinese whispers and then hold one up as an example to justify your point.

The campaigners from west cork, who met Todd Andrews did indeed travel by car to Dublin. However, the part of the story which is omitted, is the fact that they couldn't actually get to Dublin from West Cork by train as the service and connections didn't facilitate a day return journey. The story is actually CIE spin.

Furthermore T Andrews is not responsible for the closure of the Harcourt St line. Its closure was already recommended by the General Manager,(before Andrews arrived at CIE) who presented the case to the board. Andrews name is associated with the closure of many lines, only because he was at the helm during the period of retrenchment. (late 50s/early 60s)

In the UK, Beeching presided over a bigger network in a bigger country, with different demographics and many more rural branchlines than Ireland ever had. Most of the branch lines that Beeching was involved in closing would still struggle to justify their existance in the 21st century. In Ireland we closed a lot of commuter lines in or near cities (presumedly due to low employment) and without any form of alignment retention. It was T Andrews who insisted on the quick removal of rails and sale of land in order to bury any protest.A lot of the west cork lines would justify their existance now. Waterford - Tramore was closed eventhough it was operating at a profit. Thats just one example that not many actually talk about.

History has been unkind to Todd Andrews,(in relation to the Harcourt St line) but it has also proved that he did not save Irish Railways and certainly did not put an end to the eternal slide into oblivion that was CIE.

Personally, as someone who admires modern rail transport within an urban context and understands the futility of rural branch lines, Todd Andrews is too dodgy to be a hero of mine.

Beeching is irrelevent.