Easter Sunday/ 2006

arbeitsscheuer

murphaph wrote:

None of my (non-D4) friends will be going, they're ordinary dubs like me, mostly born into ordinary RC familes like me, not west-brits or anything like it, but certainly not convinced that 1916 was something we should celebrate. Anyway, enjoy waving your tricolour in the rain.

Well said.
F*ck it, celebrate something like the Republican Constitution (in all but name) of 1937. But no, that was achieved without resorting to violence, so obviously it lacks the romance and glamour of a few rebels holding off the "might" of the British Army for about a week in 1916... Honestly, go read some books...

lostexpectation

Diorraing wrote:

We heard the same old tripe when Kevin Barry and the other IRA volunteers to be reinterred. Fintan O Toole and the D4 media were there saying no-one will turn up for. On one of the coldest days of that year over 5,000 people came out to honour them and the celtic-jersey brigade were in the overwhelming minority there. Mark my words, the same will happen this Easter and Muphaph and friends will be forced to eat their words.

five thou ain't that much how many do you expect at the march not including passing shoppers

Diorraing

lostexpectation wrote:

five thou ain't that much how many do you expect at the march not including passing shoppers

The reburial of Kevin Barry wasn't a huge event. If 5,000 turned out in the wind and rain for that, imagine how many will turn out at the 90th anniversary and 100th. The fact that the people will be turning out on Easter Sunday says it all as well. I don't know how many to expect really (well over 5,000 anyway, weather permitting) but nearly everybody I know will be in attendance

Diorraing

Chief of Staff of the Irish Army was on the radio today outlining what exactly will happen. There will be a march through the city centre, behind the soldiers will be the marching bands, overhead will be the air corps. There will be a reading of the proclamation at 12 noon and later the President will lay a wreath at the garden of rememberance.
Can't wait!!

murphaph

In whose memory will that wreath be laid?

Hagar

murphaph wrote:

In whose memory will that wreath be laid?

The dead, I imagine.

cil_aine

I'm going to go and see it, purely out of interest. I'd be more inclined to go and celebrate another parade celebrating the signing of the treaty, or constitution, founding of the republic etc etc

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

The dead, I imagine.

Erm, thanks but I was hoping for a more specific answer. Will in be in rememberance of the civilians and of course british personnel (many of them irishmen) who perished?

A Dub in Glasgo

It will be laid in memory of all those who died in the fight for Irish Freedom

Hagar

Civilians are not normally commemorated at military remberances.
Do the British lay wreaths for the German dead on Poppy day?
Why should we lay wreaths for the British dead?
Even if some of the British troops were born Irish, they died British.

arbeitsscheuer

Hagar wrote:

Civilians are not normally commemorated at military remberances.
Do the British lay wreaths for the German dead on Poppy day?
Why should we lay wreaths for the British dead?
Even if some of the British troops were born Irish, they died British.

For starters, it's called Armistice or Remembrance Day, not Poppy Day. Secondly, it's for all the fallen soldiers, no matter what their nationality (altho granted one of the few western European countries where this date is not celebrated is Germany - but that is because they have a different date, and call it Eternity Sunday, I think.)

Hagar

If you don't believe me, do you believe the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/a653924

BBC Site wrote:

Remembrance Day is also known as Poppy Day, because it is traditional to wear an artificial poppy

Or maybe the Anzacs?

http://www.rsa.org.nz/remem/poppy_hist.html

I do accept that day is also called Remebrance Day or Armistice Day but please accept it is also called Poppy Day.

None of the sites I have found explicitly state that the enemy forces are included in the commemoration so I'm sticking with "each remembers their own".

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

None of the sites I have found explicitly state that the enemy forces are included in the commemoration so I'm sticking with "each remembers their own".

To many people, the irishmen in British uniforms are our own. They were putting down an illegal uprising in a democratic state, the UK.The first person killed in the rebellion was an irishman who happened to be a police constable standing outside Dublin Castle. He was brutally shot dead for no real reason. Should that man not be commemorated? Who will remember him then?

Zombrex

Hagar wrote:

Civilians are not normally commemorated at military remberances.
Do the British lay wreaths for the German dead on Poppy day?
Why should we lay wreaths for the British dead?
Even if some of the British troops were born Irish, they died British.

Er, everyone died "British", we were part of the United Kingdom of Britian and Ireland and the British Army was our army back them.

If you wanted to serve your country men, protect your civians you joined your army or police force, which was the British Army or the RIC.

The idea that they bused in Army and RIC members from London or something is ridiculous. Do you think the Gardai were "British" or any less Irish because Sinn Fein and other Republicans didn't recongise them for years?

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

To many people, the irishmen in British uniforms are our own. They were putting down an illegal uprising in a democratic state, the UK.The first person killed in the rebellion was an irishman who happened to be a police constable standing outside Dublin Castle. He was brutally shot dead for no real reason. Should that man not be commemorated? Who will remember him then?

To many people, the Irishmen in British uniforms are not our own. Every uprising is deemed illegal by the state that has the uprising therefore it is no great surprise that the uprising was illegal. A member of the British forces outside the British HQ in Ireland is killed during an uprising against British rule in Ireland, imagine that!

Is there any other way to be shot dead other than brutally?

If you want to remember that member of the British forces, you can... nobody is stopping you.

Hagar

Wicknight wrote:

The idea that they bused in Army and RIC members from London or something is ridiculous.

But they did "bus in" the Black and Tans.

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

But they did "bus in" the Black and Tans.

This was post rising. They were not involved in the topic at hand.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

To many people, the Irishmen in British uniforms are not our own.

Well that includes my grandfather who wore one 60 odd years ago and helped save us all from Nazi persecution. I suppose you reckon he was a dirty british ba$tard too?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Every uprising is deemed illegal by the state that has the uprising therefore it is no great surprise that the uprising was illegal.

True.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A member of the British forces outside the British HQ in Ireland is killed during an uprising against British rule in Ireland, imagine that!

Yeah, imagine an irishman who was a british citizen (like all irish people in 1916) being murdered for doing his job like thousands of others.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is there any other way to be shot dead other than brutally?

They didn't have to shoot im at all.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

If you want to remember that member of the British forces, you can... nobody is stopping you.

I will remember him. You go along with our highly simplified version of anglo-irish history and airbrush him out if you like.

Hagar

What exactly is the topic at hand? As usual, anything with politics in this country drags in anything and everything from the my granny wiping Padraig Pearse's bloodstained brow to the price of the pint.

Let's be honest the Easter Commemoration is not happening just by coincidence on the Anniversary of the Easter Rising. It's there to commemorate those who fought in the rising. Not the innocent civilians who died or the British troops regardless of where they were from. Loss of life is a tragedy yes, but so is subjugation of a nation. We don't need any hand wringing or self blame. The Irish fought the British Empire and utimately suceeded in winning freedom for most of our country. That's it really, end of story. Do you want me to be ashamed of that? Sorry I'm not now nor will I ever be.

The Garden of Remebrance was built for the 50th Anniversary of the Rising, now every asshole with a dead uncle in the Somme, Gallipoli or Berlin wants to claim the memorial for them. Well it wasn't built for them so if you want to build one go ahead, be my guest, just keep your hands off this one. Thank you.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

Well that includes my grandfather who wore one 60 odd years ago and helped save us all from Nazi persecution. I suppose you reckon he was a dirty british ba$tard too?

My grandfather fought in the BA in WWII as well. My grandfather did not (and neither did yours) fight for Irish Independence. You seem to want to restrict this period to purely 1916 in other posts but have this whataboutry in some other posts... make up mind time.

Yeah, imagine an irishman who was a british citizen (like all irish people in 1916) being murdered for doing his job like thousands of others.

Not sure I see your point. The 1916 Rising was a rising against British rule in Ireland, the British forces who were defending British rule in Ireland were targets irrespective of their race, creed or nationality.

They didn't have to shoot im at all.

True but that has no relevance to the question

I will remember him.

You will remember British forces that were killed yet you will not remember Irish forces that were killed. TBH, no great surprise there. Your beef is not really with the commemoration of the 1916 Rising, just anything that commemorates Irish Independence. As I said you are fully entitled to remember British forces and there is a day set aside for you ie Poppy Day.

You go along with our highly simplified version of anglo-irish history and airbrush him out if you like.

The 1916 Rising commemoration - highly simplified???? More like those who would prefer to remember the British forces in 1916. I do not airbrush the British forcers killed during the Rising, they are remembered by yourself and others in November every year.

axer

murphaph wrote:

Well that includes my grandfather who wore one 60 odd years ago and helped save us all from Nazi persecution. I suppose you reckon he was a dirty british ba$tard too?

Nobody called him that but you. Stop trying to make it personal.

murphaph wrote:

They didn't have to shoot im at all.

They could have politely asked them to cease and desist? Maybe could have asked Asquith if he would be a good chap and give us back our country.

The british army were given brutal orders to take no prisoners i.e. to brutally shoot to kill and subseqently brutally shot and brutally killed many unarmed civilians. It was probably the british who caused most of the civilian casualties with the way they handled the whole affair.

Freelancer

The level of immaturity and petty tribalism on display in this thread is proof enough that we're not mature enough to do this yet.

Snickers Man

Hagar wrote:

The Garden of Remebrance was built for the 50th Anniversary of the Rising, now every asshole with a dead uncle in the Somme, Gallipoli or Berlin wants to claim the memorial for them. Well it wasn't built for them so if you want to build one go ahead, be my guest, just keep your hands off this one. Thank you.

Er. One has been built a long time ago actually. It's in Islandbridge.

Diorraing

murphaph wrote:

To many people, the irishmen in British uniforms are our own. They were putting down an illegal uprising in a democratic state, the UK.The first person killed in the rebellion was an irishman who happened to be a police constable standing outside Dublin Castle. He was brutally shot dead for no real reason. Should that man not be commemorated? Who will remember him then?

THE UK WAS NOT A DEMOCRATIC STATE!!! What mandate did the british government have to rule Ireland - none. Did the Irish people ever vote to be in the union? No! Irish people overwhelmingly voted for Home Rule for 50 years, was it granted? NO! What the hell is democratic about that. When SF were the majority and called for Ireland to be disestablished from the Union, were they listened to Murphaph?You can cod yourself all you like, but no reasonable person would call the UK in the early part of the last century democratic.
Wow, a member of the British Occupational Force in Ireland was killed. Its war, people die, its regrettable, but how many innocent people were killed by the regime he was upholding and supporting in this country? So Irish people were killed by the volunteers in 1916. Whats your point? French people collaborating with the Nazis were killed by the French resistance.

rsynnott

Sand wrote:

Will anyone know what actually happened in 1916 by that point is the real question.

Erm, are you expecting a purge?

Freelancer

Diorraing wrote:

THE UK WAS NOT A DEMOCRATIC STATE!!! What mandate did the british government have to rule Ireland - none. Did the Irish people ever vote to be in the union? No! Irish people overwhelmingly voted for Home Rule for 50 years, was it granted? NO! What the hell is democratic about that. When SF were the majority and called for Ireland to be disestablished from the Union, were they listened to Murphaph?You can cod yourself all you like, but no reasonable person would call the UK in the early part of the last century democratic.
Wow, a member of the British Occupational Force in Ireland was killed. Its war, people die, its regrettable, but how many innocent people were killed by the regime he was upholding and supporting in this country? So Irish people were killed by the volunteers in 1916. Whats your point? French people collaborating with the Nazis were killed by the French resistance.

I'll say it again the degree of petty tribalism and immaturity over this issue just means were not in any position to glorify or celebrate this without dragging it into "you shot me grandad" or "Brits out" puerile nonsense.

We're still angry bitter and divide over the rising, it's cost, it's purpose and what it actually achieved. Considering the fiasco on O'Connell St in February, this country is in no place to reveal in, what at best was a glorious Pyrrhic defeat (on oxymoron that's apt to describe this, at times, moronic "struggle"), and at worst a pointless exercise to achieve what could conceivably have been achieved by democratic means in the same time frame (by this I mean home rule and eventual independence).

Patriotism the virtue of the vicious.
-Oscar Wilde

Zombrex

Hagar wrote:

The Irish fought the British Empire and utimately suceeded in winning freedom for most of our country. That's it really, end of story.

So because of this good thing we should celebrate every attrocity and war crime carried out in the name of Irish freedom :rolleyes:

Last time I check the Palestinians had a pretty good case against Israel. Does that mean I'm going to be going to a commemorartion of Hamas suicide bombers? I don't think so.

The cause or end does not justifiy every action or means to achieve that end. It is ridiculous that we should just accept the Rising as a necessary part of achieving independence. For a start it wasn't a necessary part. Secondly even if it was it was not a justified part, any more than the Palestinians are justified in blowing up the centre of an Israeli city or the Israelis are justied in tearing down a Palestinian town

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

How many Celtic fan rioters were there? You seem to think that the majority of the rioters were Celtic fans. I counted about 10-15, how many did you count? I also spotted guys wearing designer labels and Aston villa garments.

It was reported (on some media outlets) the very next day "Newstalk 106" comes to mind - that the rioting was largely down to Football Hooligans! I dont buy that for a second, but it is interestung to note how the spin was being put ...............................

I suspect that disodent Republicans designed the riot to look like a football riot -
I think not, it was definately calculated.

thiscityburns

There is a march on Baldonnel warport planned to coincide with the 1916 state parade, to highlight the hypocrisy of celebrating an anti-imperialist struggle while being complicit in an imperialist war in iraq.

Details here - http://www.blackshamrock.org/attachments/apr2006/baldosmall.jpg

Zombrex

Diorraing wrote:

Wow, a member of the British Occupational Force in Ireland was killed.

What the hell are you talking about. There was not "Occupational Force". There was The Army. There was the police force. Ireland had been part of the U.K for nearly 800 years. That is longer than most European countries had existed. There had never been an Irish State in any modern definition of the term, there had never been a Irish Army. There was the British Army there had always been the British Army, since knights were roaming the lands. The army of Ireland was the British Army.

Diorraing wrote:

So Irish people were killed by the volunteers in 1916. Whats your point? French people collaborating with the Nazis were killed by the French resistance.

Again, what the f**k are you talking about. The Dubliners killed during the Rising were oridinary folk going about their ordinary lives until a bunch of "heros" and thrill seekers with a death wish decided to start a fecking war in the middle of one of the most densely populated urban centres in Europe.

How dare you suggest that those civilians killed during the rising were collaborating with the British Army.

If this is what we are celebrating this Easter, this pervertion of history, it is a disgrace and I for one am having nothing to do with it.