Villepin the Iron man of France?

Sand

The recent turmoil in France cant have escaped anyones notice, as Villespein attempts to introduce flexiability into French labour law to combat youth unemployment rates of up to 50% in the French underclass (Largely Arab and African ethnic minorities thrown into abandoned suburbs and bribed to stay away) by allowing small employers to fire anyone under 26 without the usual restrictions over the first two years of a contract, encouraging firms to hire them in the first place. Quite simply the uprising last year signalled that the current system had failed and that dramatic action was required to ease the social unrest bubbling under the calm surface.

Obviously if youre middle class, white and have a college education in France youre not facing a 50% unemployment rate so this law is all bad for you. No surprise then that the usual suspects are out in the streets along with the unions, attempting to intimidate the French government into retreat and appeasement of the most vocal minority, over the majority - though they make a good pretence at acting like theyre actually out there for the common man, and the benefit to them is coincidental.

Unfortunately for them, it seems the underclass are fighting back for their interests as well - attacking the protestors, and engaging in some proactive redistribution of wealth while theyre at it. The cover of the Irish Times had a picture of one of the protestors getting the crap kicked out of them by 20-30 guys.

And above all this, we may actually have met a French leader whose ready to face down the French love of taking to the streets over every little thing (apparently this is the 24th "movement" in the past 4 years. Im not sure if the uprising last year is counted in this). Villepin seems to have remained steady and constant in his determination to push the legislation through, despite being assailed by opportunistic sniping from all sides (Sarkozy and the French defence minister (Michele Alliot-Marie if I recall correctly - apparently a leadership dark horse) whose prime concern seemed to be that "les Anglo-Saxons" were laughing at them over the whole mess, glad shes got her priorities sorted). Hes received little in the way of favours from what coverage Ive seen - I was struck by how Lara Marlowe in the Irish Times this week described his commitment to meet with the protestors once they ceased the protests as a climbdown, when it was the same offer he had extended since the beginning of the protests.

And yet he continues to stick to his guns, fair play to him. If he can underline that vocal minorities cannot derail the policies of the elected government through intimidation then perhaps he will prove to be a better option for French reforms than Sarkozy, whose opportunism is dissapointing. Hes talked a lot about reforms, but when a sensible one comes along he wastes little time in stabbing his rival in the back. Of course, Villepin *is* his rival but youd still hope for better.

The one weak link in the chain appears to be Chirac, whose laughable style of leadership is best demonstrated by his rush to his english class when confronted with the horror of a Frenchman addressing an international gathering in English. Chirac needs to sign the CPE into law, and the protestors are adjusting their aim to pressure him as theyre getting no joy from Villepin. Chirac may fold like a deck of cards, though given that to fold would leave Villepin to the wolves and ensure Sarkozys dominance he may be motivated through sheer hatred of Sarkozy to back Villepin to the hilt.

Anyway itll be interesting to see if Villepin lasts the course. I dont think he has any choice - hes been mauled from all sides so he cant retreat without abandoning all hope of the Presidency. He has to push on and make the CPE work, and earn respect if nothing else for implementing much needed reform in the face of bitter opposition from self interested mob rule.

Pazaz 21

It's about time someone stood up to the French !! I know the government is for the people, but it's for ALL the people not just the vocal minority who it will affect a little, over the majority who it will affect A LOT !!

Anyway, Villepin has to stay the course or else he will be obliterated (Politically, even though he may be obliterated physically if he does stay the course). I have a lot of respect for Villepin having the brass balls to continue, when everyone around him are losing their heads. It's the classic "well this policy isn't popular, so lets not do it, lets announce a tax break or something, people love tax breaks". I mean come on, nothing will get done if somebody dosen't make the hard decision and get what needs to be done, DONE !!

Forget Viva la France, VIVA LA VILLEPIN !!!!!!

fly_agaric

Sand wrote:

Unfortunately for them, it seems the underclass are fighting back for their interests as well - attacking the protestors, and engaging in some proactive redistribution of wealth while theyre at it. The cover of the Irish Times had a picture of one of the protestors getting the crap kicked out of them by 20-30 guys.

I hate to knock your idealism about 'the underclass' striking a blow for their interests (you almost sound like a old-style lefty there!) but I'd say that the gurriers assaulting and robbing see the protesters as rick pickings. A handy gathering of studenty marks with nice toys ripe for a mugging.

mike65

I'm boggled that its Villepin who's looking to reform the jobs market! I had him down as someone who was'nt going to rock the boat ahead of the elections.

As for the reaction to the laws, well quell surprisé.

Mike.

Sgt Sensible

If De Villepin was actually an elected representative (apparently he has never run for elected office) then I'd agree that the law should be implemented in some form or other but sneering at those French people (who've gone to college because they want to better themselves and who will after all become France's future taxpayers) for getting beaten up by mobs of cowardly thugs (who do not want to work) is an immature and frankly weird attitude to take.

However I still respect De Villepin for his speech at the UN opposing the war on Iraq.

Drexl Spivey

Sand and his favorite subject: France and the French

France is a socialist country: The French want paid holidays, security of employement, less time at work more time at home etc ...

So it is not surprising that the French are protesting a law that would make some jobs less secure.

The only reasoning behind your post is again to try to unravel "the truth" about the "nasty" French.

You'd wonder why immigrants who would be so broken down by the French system would actually stay in France if it was that bad of a segregation. (Immigrant are so much more welcome in IRL, why don't they move out here....).

Stop trying to make things complicated to suit your hate about the froggies:

The French love to protest. (ever heard of May 1968 smarty?)
The trouble makers love to make trouble (duh).

End of story.

mike65

I'm continually amazed the French economy does as well as it does and that French business is some of the most successful anywhere.

Mike.

Sgt Sensible

mike65 wrote:

I'm continually amazed the French economy does as well as it does and that French business is some of the most successful anywhere.

Mike.

I feel the same way about Ireland.

lili

Jeff Bond wrote:

Sand and his favorite subject: France and the French

France is a socialist country: The French want paid holidays, security of employement, less time at work more time at home etc ...

So it is not surprising that the French are protesting a law that would make some jobs less secure.

The only reasoning behind your post is again to try to unravel "the truth" about the "nasty" French.

You'd wonder why immigrants who would be so broken down by the French system would actually stay in France if it was that bad of a segregation. (Immigrant are so much more welcome in IRL, why don't they move out here....).

Stop trying to make things complicated to suit your hate about the froggies:

The French love to protest. (ever heard of May 1968 smarty?)
The trouble makers love to make trouble (duh).
End of story.

you summed up quite well the situation:)

what's new with this new employment contract?
a boss can fire an employee under 26 without have to give reason for it.
2 years are necessairy to judge if a person fits to the job.
doesn't it sound a bit abusive?

as for the opportunity for a defavorised young to get a job, let me laugh. why a boss would take a guy which has been in scolar failure if for the same price he can take a diplomed one?

frankly, if that is the goverment's plan to go out of the economic crisis, we are not ready to put the head out the water. i don't know what is the good way to go out, but what i'm sure is that the big french firms claimed in 2005 astronomic benefices and continue to speak about restructuration. who are the people which take avantage of those benefices? the actionnaires? who are they? american pensionnaires?
the french industry is dying because the globalisation which do nomore fit with the french social concept.
nomore investisments, rentability in short term to please financial system.
welcome in the liberalism theory, france.
wonder how long it will take to make us part of the third world.

Rockdolphin

Originally Posted by mike65
I'm continually amazed the French economy does as well as it does and that French business is some of the most successful anywhere.

Mike.

Sgt Sensible wrote:

I feel the same way about Ireland.

With you there Sgt Sensible. Our politicians are totally bemused and bewildered by the sucess of our economy. They scarcely have a policy on anything, scared silly they might do anything to frighten the Celtic Tiger away. Instead they fire slogans, gimmicks, consultants, tax forces and bans at every issue and busy themselves meddling in the everyday lifes of Irish citizens.

As regards the French, we might well learn a thing or two from them. The French don't allow their government to kick them around or get away with too much. I doubt they would put up with the charade that is the tribunals in this country for instance, nor the disgrace that is the trolley nation in our hospitals, not to mention things like the smoking ban or lunacy traffic laws. Meddlers they will not allow as masters.

I have to admit to not being an admirer in the past of the French. However they were a lone voice in Europe against the American led plans for the invasion of Iraq. They were not duped by American Intelligence and realised the only WMD around was weapons of mass deception. They faced down the ridicule and sneers aimed in their direction at the time of George's big Iraqi adventure and were not the most popular kid on the block. But let me tell you, French Cuisine is well and truly back on the menu and not least in New York !

mike65

However they were a lone voice in Europe against the American led plans for the invasion of Iraq. They were not duped by American Intelligence and realised the only WMD around was weapons of mass deception

Well the Germans might argue that point and they may have just got lucky on Iraqs WMD or lack of. Did the French punch holes in the US intelligence?

Mike.

Rockdolphin

mike65 wrote:

Well the Germans might argue that point and they may have just got lucky on Iraqs WMD or lack of. Did the French punch holes in the US intelligence?

Mike.

The Germans made some noise, but it was the Fench who spoke virgourously against the war. What US Intelligence ?, there was none, it was pure fabrication !

The Corinthian

Great, looks like another debate between the Old-Europeans versus the New-Puerto Ricans.

lili

chirac made his peech yesturday. he wasn't very clear.
seems his mission was to "saving private de villepin".

Pazaz 21

So Chirac is proposing a watered-down version of the CPE, big shock there !! He has shown his weakness and now they will go for the jugular !!

Gotta respect him for not folding totally, and the compromise is not that bad, reducing it to one year and knowing why you got fired are things that will not fundamentally affect the law. Anyway once the law is in effect they could always increase it back to two years if they wanted.

Don't think this will be accepted by the protesters though !!

Well i guess he has shown that he is willing to compromise and if the protesters are not willing to do the same and sit down and negotiate, then what can he do but pass the bill and blame it on a lack of willingness to talk or be reasonable by the unions! (Sarcasim Alert)

I love politics !!:D

The_Minister

Rockdolphin wrote:

I have to admit to not being an admirer in the past of the French. However they were a lone voice in Europe against the American led plans for the invasion of Iraq. They were not duped by American Intelligence and realised the only WMD around was weapons of mass deception. They faced down the ridicule and sneers aimed in their direction at the time of George's big Iraqi adventure and were not the most popular kid on the block. But let me tell you, French Cuisine is well and truly back on the menu and not least in New York !

Bollocks. The only reason they were against it was that they had lost lots of money that they had put into Iraq. It was financial interest nothing more.

Pazaz 21

Firespinner wrote:

Bollocks. The only reason they were against it was that they had lost lots of money that they had put into Iraq. It was financial interest nothing more.

Totally agree with you there.

Tariq Aziz, Saddam Hussein's deputy prime minister is quoted as saying that Russia and France had received millions of dollars of trade and service contracts with Iraq, "with the implied understanding that their political posture .... would be pro-Iraqi".

Plus i'm sure Germany were getting something out of it !!

Sand

Im dissapointed but unsurprised by Chirac. Hes made the error of attempting to compromise with unions/students who have repeatedly stated they are uninterested in compromise, only the CPEs complete removal. His compromise will only be viewed as a signal of weakness, like blood in the water. The protestors will only be encouraged to redouble their efforts.

The CPE badly needs to be implemented, not because its perfect (its not - the law shouldnt be limited by age, but I can understand Villepin is attempting to ease in reform and the best place to start is with youth unemployment as reform is most urgently required there) but to underline that the government sets policy, not unions or students. Its not like theyre hardcore Chirac/Villepin/Sarkozy voters to begin with, so the French right dont win any votes by appeasing them - in fact they probably lose votes.

The protestors need to be utterly crushed/sidelined/ignored, much as the miners were in Thatchers Britain, but in this case because governments shouldnt tolerate subversion of their mandate by vocal minorities. Its vitally important that the protestors cannot claim victory on any point, it should be utter defeat for them. Unfortunately Chirac has handed them a morale booster with his ill advised fence sitting.

You'd wonder why immigrants who would be so broken down by the French system would actually stay in France if it was that bad of a segregation. (Immigrant are so much more welcome in IRL, why don't they move out here....).

Id imagine its because the social system has successfully reduced them to utter dependancy on state handouts, which probably dont include plane tickets to other countries. When youre facing 50% unemployment and youre subtly encouraged by handouts to stay at home and watch Oprah its hard to summon the get up and go to change things. Hence the nihilistic and dystopian rioting of late last year.

Also EU law is that immigrants can only claim asylum in the first EU country they land in, so they cant go on tour shopping around for the best deal. And for second or third generation, theyre Frech citizens so cant claim asylum - well they could, but it wouldnt be approved.

Immigrants might rate Ireland above France, given that they can actually get a job here and getting a job is the first step to fufilling any immigrants dream of improving their lot and becoming a part of their new society (its no surprise that a country with chronic unemployment also has a ghettoised immigrant populations left outside society). But like I said, they need to land in Ireland first before any other EU country if theyre going to claim asylum. This is a tricky feat to accomplish given Irelands geographic location and the common immigrant route via the Med and Spain/Italy.

I hate to knock your idealism about 'the underclass' striking a blow for their interests (you almost sound like a old-style lefty there!) but I'd say that the gurriers assaulting and robbing see the protesters as rick pickings. A handy gathering of studenty marks with nice toys ripe for a mugging.

Well I did note some pro-active redistribution of wealth - if socialism isnt about siezing other peoples private property to improve your own lot in life then what is it about? Ah, seriously though I just threw it in there to highlight how people will instintively think that these protestors are out there fighting for all the people, when theyre only attempting to maintain their own status. Painting phone thieves and rioters as idealistic young trotsky fans makes as much sense.

And its hilarious seeing idealistic middle class communists talking about the plight of the lower classes meeting the lower classes in person to discuss what handouts do to a persons self esteem and place in society.

fly_agaric

Sand wrote:

And its hilarious seeing idealistic middle class communists talking about the plight of the lower classes meeting the lower classes in person to discuss what handouts do to a persons self esteem and place in society.

When you put it like that, it is a bit ironic. Or maybe sad is better.
Anyway, when I read incredible stuff like this I start think it will take more than job creation and anti-discrimination policies to sort out France's problems with its "underclass".

Thanks to Yalda’s charms, Halimi was imprisoned and tortured with acid and cigarette burns for more than three weeks in the heart of a council estate.

More than 30 neighbours in the building knew what was happening but said nothing about the crime

Hard for me to imagine an area so awful that the people there won't report someone being tortured to death in their building to the police because they are (a) so terrified of the local hoods or (b) just couldn't give much of a shít, really - or maybe (c) they hate the police/authorities and are very glad to see some "rich jew" getting what he deserves.

Well, maybe I exaggerate. Perhaps I can imagine areas like that - just not in the capital city of one of the richest and most developed countries in the world.

Sgt Sensible

Sand wrote:

The protestors need to be utterly crushed/sidelined/ignored, much as the miners were in Thatchers Britain, but in this case because governments shouldnt tolerate subversion of their mandate by vocal minorities. Its vitally important that the protestors cannot claim victory on any point, it should be utter defeat for them. Unfortunately Chirac has handed them a morale booster with his ill advised fence sitting.

Vocal minority? From all the polls and reports I've seen, between two thirds and three quarters of French people are opposed to the CPE, with roughly half of those wanting it modified. Show us where you get your information from. Do you believe that the law should be applied to all workers regardless of age? I have to ask in case that was another wee troll or something.

The only vocal minority is the unelected Monsieur De Villepin.

How should the CPE's opponents be crushed exactly?

lili

Sand wrote:

The protestors need to be utterly crushed/sidelined/ignored, much as the miners were in Thatchers Britain, but in this case because governments shouldnt tolerate subversion of their mandate by vocal minorities. Its vitally important that the protestors cannot claim victory on any point, it should be utter defeat for them. Unfortunately Chirac has handed them a morale booster with his ill advised fence sitting.



.

he can't seriously ignore 68% of french population. i don't know if you figure out the ampleur of the situation.
don't forget in which circonstance chirac have been elected in 2002. he haven't been elected on his program.
so, imagine what is the situation of de villepin which haven't even been choiced at all.
chirac had no choice than a compromise if he wanted saving the head of his prim minister meanwhile give the impress of hearing what the street is saying.

by the way, i think the bells of the death are ringing for this govnerment.

Sand

Vocal minority? From all the polls and reports I've seen, between two thirds and three quarters of French people are opposed to the CPE, with roughly half of those wanting it modified.

he can't seriously ignore 68% of french population.

Both the same point. 68% of French people do not oppose the CPE, 68% of a polled sample do, more than likely to a pre-loaded question anyway. France is a democracy, with policy set and passed by the representives of the people. It is not government by telephone poll, nor government by newspaper editorials, nor government by rent-a-mob.

The *only* mandate required is achieved at the voting booths. And last time out Chiracs government, god help us, won the election and the right to set policy. End of. If people do not like the policy set by this government, then vote them out in the next election. Attempts to subvert the exspressed electoral mandate are not acceptable tbh.

The only vocal minority is the unelected Monsieur De Villepin.

True, I dont respect the fact he has never stood for election, but he does lead the elected government of the French people. A bunch of students/union activists and telephone polls doesnt come even close to that sort of mandate. End of.

How should the CPE's opponents be crushed exactly?

Implement the CPE in full, ignore the protests and leave time/rioters to break their spirit. The protestors are counting on the track record of French government caving to union/student demands. If theyre stonewalled theyll eventually collapse. The government simply has to demonstrate that it will never, ever back down. Once this sinks in, the protestors will crawl back to whatever lecture hall they came from having learned a valuable lesson about mandates and where they come from.

i don't know if you figure out the ampleur of the situation.
don't forget in which circonstance chirac have been elected in 2002. he haven't been elected on his program.

No, he was ably assisted by the fact that nationalist socialists are more popular in France than plain vanilla socialists but thats hardly his problem. Had a socialist candidate profited from a similar voting breakdown they wouldnt be overly bothered by implementing center right policies would they?

Do you believe that the law should be applied to all workers regardless of age? I have to ask in case that was another wee troll or something.

I believe reform of the labour laws in France is required across all age groups, not just under 27 year olds - though it is most critical there. Im not overly concerned at the prospect of people being fired at 26 - outside of McDonalds, a quality employee with 2 years experience is worth more than saving a small bit on the wages for a unknown employee with no experience - but the law as it stands merely postphones the postphones the issue of overly restrictive labour laws.

The Corinthian

Sand wrote:

Both the same point. 68% of French people do not oppose the CPE, 68% of a polled sample do, more than likely to a pre-loaded question anyway.

Translation: “I don’t like this evidence, so I’m just going to dismiss it as fixed.”

France is a democracy, with policy set and passed by the representives of the people.

And if those people react badly to those policies, the representatives of the people have a habit of backing down in democracies. Remember the Poll Tax in the UK?

Rockdolphin

Firespinner wrote:

Bollocks. The only reason they were against it was that they had lost lots of money that they had put into Iraq. It was financial interest nothing more.

For that to be true the French would have to be finacial lunatics. Whatever trade they had with Iraq would be minuscule compared to trade with the USA and not nearly as important.

Rockdolphin

Pazaz 21 wrote:

Totally agree with you there.

Tariq Aziz, Saddam Hussein's deputy prime minister is quoted as saying that Russia and France had received millions of dollars of trade and service contracts with Iraq, "with the implied understanding that their political posture .... would be pro-Iraqi".

Plus i'm sure Germany were getting something out of it !!

If Tariq Aziz said it, it must be true ! Personally however I'd be extremely dubious of quoting scoundrels on the run to back up any argument.

As I saw it at the time France and Germany's stance was as much to do with European domestic affairs and an opportunity for a major powerplay. With the UK commited and other European countries other than Spain diddering and doddering as usual it was an opportunity to isolate Blair and front a alternative European middle eastern policy to the Americans. The Germans had been busy wooing the former communists states to their east and wished to extend their influence. They shamefully at the time threatened Poland and other former eastern bloc countries with reprisals if they looked further west than the Rhine and backed America.

Every nation will always look after it's own interests first. The Fench position has been vindicated regardless of motivations.

lili

Sand wrote:

Both the same point. 68% of French people do not oppose the CPE, 68% of a polled sample do, more than likely to a pre-loaded question anyway. France is a democracy, with policy set and passed by the representives of the people. It is not government by telephone poll, nor government by newspaper editorials, nor government by rent-a-mob.

The *only* mandate required is achieved at the voting booths. And last time out Chiracs government, god help us, won the election and the right to set policy. End of. If people do not like the policy set by this government, then vote them out in the next election. Attempts to subvert the exspressed electoral mandate are not acceptable tbh.



True, I dont respect the fact he has never stood for election, but he does lead the elected government of the French people. A bunch of students/union activists and telephone polls doesnt come even close to that sort of mandate. End of.



Implement the CPE in full, ignore the protests and leave time/rioters to break their spirit. The protestors are counting on the track record of French government caving to union/student demands. If theyre stonewalled theyll eventually collapse. The government simply has to demonstrate that it will never, ever back down. Once this sinks in, the protestors will crawl back to whatever lecture hall they came from having learned a valuable lesson about mandates and where they come from.



No, he was ably assisted by the fact that nationalist socialists are more popular in France than plain vanilla socialists but thats hardly his problem. Had a socialist candidate profited from a similar voting breakdown they wouldnt be overly bothered by implementing center right policies would they?



I believe reform of the labour laws in France is required across all age groups, not just under 27 year olds - though it is most critical there. Im not overly concerned at the prospect of people being fired at 26 - outside of McDonalds, a quality employee with 2 years experience is worth more than saving a small bit on the wages for a unknown employee with no experience - but the law as it stands merely postphones the postphones the issue of overly restrictive labour laws.

it's funny to see how the news from france are related outside france:)
first you have to explain what is "nationalist socialist", i know only one party in france which could be labelled of nationalist and it certainly isn't the socialist one.

as for the way chirac has been elected in 2002, i'm not sure you really got the stuff.
those elections have been based not on economy but on the security.
the votes for the lefties have been shared between several tendances. which make them weak.
the result was that in the second round, l'UMP and the extrem right were above the divided lefties.
so, what choice had the french then?
chirac won the election with 82% (that's what i call a dictator's score).

for this CPE.
the message of the french population is quite clear : we are in the 21th century, noway for us to come back to the 19th. if something might be done it will not be by screwing a part of the population regarding the age. or even by screwing the workers.
i don't know what you think about this but i find ashaming to see what has been the bilan of big french companies, the astronomic benefices they made in 2005 and we still hearing of restructuration!
it's not by screwing the workers that we will give a new start to the economy, the solution is elsewhere. our industries are dying by delocalisation, our big firms are sold to american and english holdings which don't give a damn on what will be the future. they only care on the short term and on what will be the profit to their actionnaires.

in france we do have already several sort of contracts. some of them are made for the bosses which want flexibility in work. we don't need a new contract.

ambro25

Rockdolphin wrote:

For that to be true the French would have to be finacial lunatics. Whatever trade they had with Iraq would be minuscule compared to trade with the USA and not nearly as important.

It depends on what they trade, however: France providing armaments and 'heavy industry' (steel mills, power plants) against petrol for decades. Don't forget that trade between countries has much more to it than mere balancing of zeroes - there's a political and strategical dimension to it as well, and you'd be surprised just how much FR was doing with Iraq in the 70s/80s, and how little US was doing with Iraq at the same time (I was in Iraq in the late 80s, building American pre-fab hospitals with erection sub-contracted to a FR company).

A most comprehensibe and insightful reference here. All in French, so get your Babel Fish ready

[cynical mode] The US just muscled in for the petrol - twice - they just had a better excuse the first time around[/cynical mode]

Back to the OP/anti-CPE posters: Villepin or not, measures like the CPE are long overdue to reestablish some form of 'distributive' + 'distributed' society (distributed as in: private industry vs civil service numbers).

FR industry still scores high gains for two main reasons: (i) exportation of labour-intensive processes to low-wages countries (much like everywhere else, no surprises there) and (ii) considering the labout laws prevalent for some time now, FR companies have had no choice but to become productivity champions to remain competitive.

Lilly dear - you can object to globalisation and wish it away, the fact remains that ignoring it will lead to ever-less job opportunities, because of reduced competitivity and eventual demise of FR companies. Better to still have a company with management + ancillary services in FR and manufacturing elsewhere, than no company at all... Because choosing to ignore it in FR does not mean that your foreign competition will abstain from using it.

lili

ambro dear,
i know that the situation is irreversible. that we have to deal with globalisation and liberalism. that the profit is what makes turning the world.
ok, we will die of it.

ambro25

lili wrote:

ambro dear,
i know that the situation is irreversible. that we have to deal with globalisation and liberalism. that the profit is what makes turning the world.
ok, we will die of it.

Look, it's time for FR people to step out of Utopia for a moment and realise that all of the social benefits that they have built over the years come at a price: it's been easy enough to pay it right up to the mid-80s, when the FR balance of trade was fairly positive because of all the mirages, TGVs and nuclear plants the GVT sold to the likes of Iran, Iraq, China, Brazil, etc.

But with an ever-shrinking active population since, and within that an ever-shrinking workforce in the private sector to generate added value (which the GVT taxes, which taxes pay for the benefits and the ever-growing army of civil servants), 'tant va la cruche à l'eau qu'à la fin elle se casse'.

It's the centuries-old, basic principle of the communicating vases: you take some one side, the other side drops; you add some one side, the other side rises So whichever way you look at it, and without posing as the baby-eating ultra-capitalist here, there's two avenues: (i) stick with the "30 Glorieuses" approach to social benefits and strike for a 'yes' or a 'no' to preserve it no matter what (as has been the case to date), until eventual bankrupcy, or (ii) start making allowances for the fact that the rest of the world will not stop evolving just because FR people have decided that they want their cake and eating it.

The third alternative, mediation, has been tried since the early 90s and, to date, I've yet to be convinced that it's done any good, in fact if it's done anything at all. Forgive me if I'm stating the situation in somewhat brutal terms here, but unemployment has not dipped below 10% for the last 15 years (I've served my National Service at the Cabinet of a Préfet de Région - I could tell some things about these statistics as well ), personal taxation has not reduced in real monetary terms (it can't, there's less and less people paying tax :rolleyes:), yet the GVt keeps caving in, for instance imposing on private companies to produce the same (if not more, year-on-year) amount of added value with 4 hours less per employee per week. You do the math: In a company employing 10 people, that's the same as having one employee less for the same amount of work :eek:

As I always tell people who ask me about France and all that's happening now (which has been happening for years, let's be honest), there's a reason why I left with slamming the door in '94 and not looked back since. Fact of the matter is, you're simply not allowed to be successful in France and *God forbid* if despite the Himalyas of red tape you somehow did manage to make it good, you're then not allowed to reap the rewards anyhow...

lili

ambro25 wrote:

for instance imposing on private companies to produce the same (if not more, year-on-year) amount of added value with 4 hours less per employee per week. You do the math: In a company employing 10 people, that's the same as having one employee less for the same amount of work :eek:

...

do you know that france is the country which is the most productive regarding the work per hour?
means that with our 35h we are still the most performing.

ambro25

Of course I do - that's my main point :eek: FR has no choice but to be one of the, if not the, most productive country per workforce capita, when you consider all that each such capita has to "contribute to the pot" to keep the social momentum going.

FR industry has no choice to continue to exist - it's simple maths:

I pay you €10 an hour for 35 hours a week, €350 of your time and my money gives me 100 widgets (€=3.5 cost per unit, lets keep it simple) which I can sell at €5. So, I can pay you your €3.5 and I keep €1.5 profit.

My German (or US or UK, or...) competitor pays his employees €10 an hour (it's the West, let's still keep it simple and say salaries are more-or-less in-line) for 40 hours, €400 of his employee's time and his money gives him 100 widgets (€=4.0 cost per unit) which he can also sell at €5 (it's a market economy ). So, he can pay his employee their €3.5 and keep €0.5 profit (less, because his employee is not as productive as you, my trusted and overproductive FR employee , even though he works more hours).

Now, my UK competitor, he ain't no fool. He decentralises production to India, and pays his employees €1 a day, 10 hour day, 6 day week (total cost = €60 per week, €0.10 per hour). If his employee can make even a quarter (25) of the example 100 widgets in a 60 hours week, grossly underproductive by my example FR standards, my UK competitor is still laughing because his cost per unit is €2.4 - and he can still sell his widgets €5.

Now, as we all know, Indians (no prejudice intended - I've worked with Indians for years in heavy industry and they're world-class) are no slouches where business and processes are concerned. So while FR are busy griping about 'Les Anglo-Saxons', they should realise that it's not so much US pension funds that are stripping the land's jobs away anymore, but increasingly countries that -in the FR psyche- are still very incorrectly assimilated to be '3rd World'. Have a quick Google gander for 'Mittal Steel'