Next time I am going to the cops!!

Villain

TBH el tel I have no problem pissing off people who want to break the speed limits, also tbh most of the time I do move in and the let cars past once I have overtaken the cars that are moving slowly in the left hand lane, but its bugs me when people start flashing me while I'm overtaking them because they feel the need to drive above the speed limit.

Bard

If I recall correctly, you have the right to briefly exceed the speed limit in order to safely overtake the car in front of you.

prospect wrote:

AMurphy. There is no excuse for overtaking on the left (in this country).

Actually, there are a number of valid excuses - all of which are in the rules of the road, a couple of which are:

• When you are in multi-lane traffic and the traffic on the right is moving more slowly than the traffic on the left.
• When you intend to enter an upcoming filter lane to turn left.

Aside, regarding the "law enforcers", no matter how righteous you think you are, it's plainly stupid to sit in the overtaking lane (whether overtaking or not), and rigidly stick to 120kph when there are aggressive drivers behind you who want to go faster. It's not up to you to slow them down (Besides... there could be an ambulance, unmarked police car, or another such vehicle further back that you're not aware of...) - you should pull over at the next opportunity and let them pass.

TillyT

RobAMerc......are u a merc driver?

neacy69

css wrote:

Sorry but this statement really is stupid. If someone wants to do over 120kph it's their choice, who are you to say otherwise? I for one am sick of the attitude "I'm doing the speed limit, where do they think they are going" by spanners who sit in the overtaking lane.

Im also sorry but this statment is stupid. driving above 120Kph is illegal therefore it is not a choice it is against the law. People do not have a choice to do over 120Kph- thats the root of the problem people do not have respect for the law against speeding therefore think it is their choice to drive at whatever speed they want...

prospect

Bard wrote:

Actually, there are a number of valid excuses - all of which are in the rules of the road, a couple of which are:

• When you are in multi-lane traffic and the traffic on the right is moving more slowly than the traffic on the left.
• When you intend to enter an upcoming filter lane to turn left.

Allright Mr.Pedantic :rolleyes: ,
I was referring to OVERTAKING on the left. As in the situation illustrated by the OP, which is what this whole thread is about.

jdwals

I'm with Irish1 on this one (didn't think I would be when I read his first post but there you go!).
If I am in the right hand lane overtaking a line of cars in the left hand lane, and if someone comes up behind me driving faster - I will not move in to the left hand lane until I have A: Finished my overtaking manuver and B: Judge that it is safe for me to do so and to hell with whatever anyone behind me thinks.
Let me assure everyone that every opportunity I have, I will drive in the left hand lane and will pull back in to that lane once I have completed any overtaking manuver.
I just refuse to cut someone up and squezze into a nearly non existent gap to let someone who thinks they need to get to where they are going ten seconds faster bully me off the road.
Just also like to say that I have started trying out indicating with my right indicator whenever I come up behind someone blocking the overtaking lane for no reason, rather than giving them a flash of my headlights. And for some reason it works wonders!!!! Got this idea off these boards and it is great. People seem to have no problem moving in for an indicator but get really upset with a flash of the headlights.
As regards underataking - I have done it in the past and will do it in the future but I hate doing it and it is always a last resort for me. There should be no need for it if everyone drove according to the rules of the road and with courtesy for other road users but I refuse to be held up on a motorway or dual carraige way because someone is either half asleep, does not care about other drivers or just has no idea where they need to be.

Raiser

TheBazman wrote:

......So move up right behind them (which the AA recommend btw)......

:mad: Wow, it just so happens that any driver with all chromosomes present and accounted for, who has a conscious awarenss of reality and the World around them recognises tail-gating as a grossly stupid act whereby you endanger your own sad little life, legs, spine, ability to feed yourself on a daily basis. Furthermore if you want to kill whoever happens to be driving ahead of you and put their kids in little health-board subsidised wheelchairs, this is a good tactic.

I can only imagine that by the AA you mean the Ar$eholes Alumni or perhaps that other venerable organisation Accident Association [?] Let me know because I intend on contacting them for clarification - Any organisation offering advice to motorists that clearly prohits them from driving safely [for themselves and unfortunate innocents in their vicinity] should be closed down promptly.

And TheBazman - If you ever come closer than a safe stopping distance of my rear number plate [with heed to road conditions and enviornmental factors] I will go through the physics of the speed of light & reaction times, variance in the coefficient of friction for rubber/asphalt in wet dry conditions and finally I'll personally demonstrate the effects/trauma that multiple impacts with windscreens, pressed steel and concrete can have on your cramped cranium.................With the aid of some slides I happen to have of course

Bard

prospect wrote:

Allright Mr.Pedantic :rolleyes: ,
I was referring to OVERTAKING on the left. As in the situation illustrated by the OP, which is what this whole thread is about.

So was I.

It's perfectly legal to overtake on the left if the traffic on the right is moving too slowly.

prospect

Bard wrote:

So was I.

It's perfectly legal to overtake on the left if the traffic on the right is moving too slowly.

In the OPs situation, it is not.
If you are travelling up the left lane of a motorway at 120KMh and there is someone in the right lane travelling at 100KMh, you should not continue up the left lane past them (also they should not be there in the first place).

If you are in TRAFFIC, it is a completely different situation.

el tel

jdwals wrote:

I'm with Irish1 on this one (didn't think I would be when I read his first post but there you go!).
If I am in the right hand lane overtaking a line of cars in the left hand lane, and if someone comes up behind me driving faster - I will not move in to the left hand lane until I have A: Finished my overtaking manuver and B: Judge that it is safe for me to do so and to hell with whatever anyone behind me thinks.
Let me assure everyone that every opportunity I have, I will drive in the left hand lane and will pull back in to that lane once I have completed any overtaking manuver.
I just refuse to cut someone up and squezze into a nearly non existent gap to let someone who thinks they need to get to where they are going ten seconds faster bully me off the road.
Just also like to say that I have started trying out indicating with my right indicator whenever I come up behind someone blocking the overtaking lane for no reason, rather than giving them a flash of my headlights. And for some reason it works wonders!!!! Got this idea off these boards and it is great. People seem to have no problem moving in for an indicator but get really upset with a flash of the headlights.
As regards underataking - I have done it in the past and will do it in the future but I hate doing it and it is always a last resort for me. There should be no need for it if everyone drove according to the rules of the road and with courtesy for other road users but I refuse to be held up on a motorway or dual carraige way because someone is either half asleep, does not care about other drivers or just has no idea where they need to be.

Everything* you say is spot on.


*Still don't like the thought of Irish1 out there like the lone ranger enforcing the 120kmh speed limit though. Some laws (e.g. speeding) may be broken without endangering anyone as long as some punter doesn't decide to be the hero and get involved.

Kersh

I love 'overtaking' threads.


Bit surely if i go out and buy a 360 Modena, and willingly fly down the motorway at 290kmh and am willing to accept my punishment.... will you guys move out of my way.... or do some of you enforce the law.... by blocking the right hand lane.

Bard

prospect wrote:

If you are travelling up the left lane of a motorway at 120KMh and there is someone in the right lane travelling at 100KMh, you should not continue up the left lane past them.

What you're suggesting would mean that if, for example, some idiot was sitting in the overtaking lane at 60Km/h, and I was driving up the left lane at 80Km/h, I wouldn't legally be allowed pass said idiot who is driving at 60Km/h unless he pulls in to the left and I pull out to the right to pass him?

Can you quote us a particular piece of Irish legislation that backs that up? I doubt it.

It stands that the Rules of the Road state that you MAY overtake on the left if traffic on the right is moving too slowly. One car is "traffic".

prospect

In fairness to Irish1, I just don't think his first post was worded well.

He had no oppertunity to pull in to the left lane and let the faster car by. And if he is not happy to speed up above the limit in order to change lane sooner, well that is a simple fact the guy behind has to accept.
However, if he had passed up some oppertunities to let the faster car by, well that is a different story, but that does not seem to be what happened.

RobAMerc

Please read my original post again before commenting. There was no-one on the left lane as I approached her, she should not have been out there and I was totally in the right to try overtake her in the OVERTAKING lane.

It would be illegal and stupid to overtake her in the left lane.

I appologise if people read my post and thought I was flashing her while she was in the 'OVERTAKING lane' actually overtaking, whether she was doing 100kph or 500kph because then I would have been wrong.

So I will repeat, the left lane was empty she was NOT overtaking anyone and there was no-one in the left lane.

And to be honest more to the point, she should not have hit the brakes it is surely unjustifyable.

maidhc

Lads, forget the rules for a second.

If everyone drove sensibly there wouldnt half as many accidents.

All this nonsense about pedantic interpretation of the ROTR is only going to cause accidents in a "how dare he me undertake me while I am doing the limit I am entitled to do on the outside lane.. I am going to show him" kind of way.

prospect

Bard wrote:

What you're suggesting would mean that if, for example, some idiot was sitting in the overtaking lane at 60Km/h, and I was driving up the left lane at 80Km/h, I wouldn't legally be allowed pass said idiot who is driving at 60Km/h unless he pulls in to the left and I pull out to the right to pass him?

Can you quote us a particular piece of Irish legislation that backs that up? I doubt it.

It stands that the Rules of the Road state that you MAY overtake on the left if traffic on the right is moving too slowly.

The operative word being TRAFFIC, not SINGLE VEHICLE.

Can you point out any legislation that says it is legal to pass out on the left whenever you see fit.
This is exactly what I meant in my earlier post when I said the main problems is certain peoples complete inability to drive safely, and interpret the rules of the road properly.
You are using a very specific rule and applying it to a different situation to suit your needs. Where as, if the person wasn't driving in the outside lane in the first place, you would not need to do that.

So their bad driving has now passed onto you.

2Tagz

irish1 wrote:

TBH el tel I have no problem pissing off people who want to break the speed limits, also tbh most of the time I do move in and the let cars past once I have overtaken the cars that are moving slowly in the left hand lane, but its bugs me when people start flashing me while I'm overtaking them because they feel the need to drive above the speed limit.

Yeah it's a pain in the arse when you pull out to overtake and some following car suddenly hits "turbo boost" out of nowhere and drives up your behind. This happens every now and again if you drive motorways regularly. You can reduce this happening to you by being as aware as possible of following car behaviour and by judging your overtaking opportunities on that basis but you won't eliminate it altogether. Sometimes you will make mistakes and sometimes other drivers will be irresponsible. Now bear with me..

Personally I've witnessed a lot of close calls while motorway driving when cars are attempting pass manoeuvres while both lanes of traffic are running on or below the speed limits. It's absolutely essential for road safety on motorways that the overtaking lane moves faster than the left lane at all times (except when there's a jam of course..). This sometimes entails breaking the signed speed limits. Think about the road the same way as a normal single lane; if you were stuck behind a JCB doing 20 KPH on a road with a 40 KPH limit would you pull out and make sure to maintain a rigid 39 KPH expecting any possible approaching traffic to pull over & stop while you stay "legal"? Personally I would pull out and hit the gas in order to get out and get back in again as quickly as possible, even if it it meant breaking the limit for a few seconds. This is purely so as not to endanger other road users. The whole problem here is with a lack of lane discipline; discipline has never been a popular concept in Irish civic life so it's no surprise that our roads reflect this. Depends whether you believe that the Law alone should dictate how we behave in public..

Bard

RobAMerc wrote:

It would be illegal and stupid to overtake her in the left lane.

Actually, it would have been neither.

I would have been perfectly legal as she was impeding the flow of traffic by driving too slowly. And it wouldn't have been stupid either - what was more stupid, perhaps, was flashing your lights at her, as god knows what reaction that will provoke from most drivers - in your case it got a bad one.

So I will repeat, the left lane was empty she was NOT overtaking anyone and there was no-one in the left lane.

Then, while it doesn't excuse her ignorance, you did the right thing by overtaking her on the left.

And to be honest more to the point, she should not have hit the brakes it is surely unjustifyable.

While she shouldn't have hit the brakes as a reaction to you flashing her, you shouldn't have really flashed her as that's a fairly aggressive signal. At least you were prepared for her to hit the brakes and there was no collission - because if there were, in the eyes of the law, it would have been entirely your fault.

prospect wrote:

The operative word being TRAFFIC, not SINGLE VEHICLE.

A single car IS traffic. If I can't proceed at a reasonable pace on a multi-lane road because of a car on the right (TRAFFIC!) driving too slowly, I have the legal right to overtake it on the left according to the rules of the road. Seems clear enough to me.

prospect wrote:

Can you point out any legislation that says it is legal to pass out on the left whenever you see fit.

Nobody said anything about "whenever you see fit". I said "if traffic on the right is moving too slowly". You still haven't pointed to any legislation to back up your point. I've pointed to the Rules of the Road.

prospect wrote:

This is exactly what I meant in my earlier post when I said the main problems is certain peoples complete inability to drive safely, and interpret the rules of the road properly.
You are using a very specific rule and applying it to a different situation to suit your needs. Where as, if the person wasn't driving in the outside lane in the first place, you would not need to do that.

The situation is exactly the same. Multi-lane traffic with the traffic on the right driving too slowly. It's not terribly ambiguous you know... nothing to misinterpret.

prospect wrote:

So their bad driving has now passed onto you.

You have no idea of my level of driving competence.

prospect

Bard wrote:

Actually, it would have been neither.

I would have been perfectly legal

I cant believe this guy? :eek:

Surely a troll......

ambro25

To the original OP. If you were driving @ 120kmph in the left-hand lane, and come upon someone doing 100kmph in the overtaking lane,why not just stay in your lane and pass them ? EDIT:And similar recommendation by other posters

If the 'undertaken' car happens to move back into the left lane whilst you are undertaking it, and metal bending occurs, it your fault insurance-wise. 100% of it.

I have personally witnessed such an incident in Belgium years ago, in which I was actually all set to follow the BMW that was undertaking a big Merc that was sitting in the overtaking lane (empty for miles ahead) - guess what? the undertaken driver must have been so surprised by the maoeuver (he probably hadn't seen us 'arrive' on him) that he (instinctively?) pulled back in, clipping the BMW's ass in doing so. Considering we were close to 150 kph at the time, it wasn't pretty (but noone was hurt, thankfully).

That's why you dont undertake, or at least not until you're sure that the other driver has seen you (but has decided not to pull over).

Bard

prospect wrote:

I cant believe this guy? :eek:

Surely a troll......

If you're going to quote me, it would be nice if you quoted me correctly. I've explained why in the OP's case, he was perfectly within his rights according to the Rules of the Road to overtake on the left.

Have you read the Rules of the Road recently?

Anan1

Bard wrote:

Can you quote us a particular piece of Irish legislation that backs that up? I doubt it.

It stands that the Rules of the Road state that you MAY overtake on the left if traffic on the right is moving too slowly. One car is "traffic".

To the best of my knowledge, Bard, it says if the traffic is moving slowly, not too slowly. God is in the detail.;)

kluivert

irish1 wrote:

Emm under the rules of the road I am entitled to do exactly what I said, overtake cars in the overtaking lane.

Sorry Irish I quoted the wrong person there.

It was meant to be the person who said undertaking was acceptable, after carefully reading the posts I'd have to agree with Prospect.

el tel

2Tagz wrote:

Yeah it's a pain in the arse when you pull out to overtake and some following car suddenly hits "turbo boost" out of nowhere and drives up your behind.

Someone rightly pointed out in a similar thread a long time ago that cars
do not "appear out of nowhere".

You have eyes and mirrors. Use them.

Bard

Anan1 wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, Bard, it says if the traffic is moving slowly, not too slowly. God is in the detail.

Actually, what it says is more along the lines of "if traffic in the right-hand lane is moving more slowly than traffic in the left-hand lane". (I was helping someone revise for their test recently, so it's fresh in my memory...) - Certainly not "too slowly", no ... but the end result is essentially the same - in that there was no harm or illegality in the OP's overtaking on the left, although, as you suggested on another thread, Anan1, it would have been a good idea certianly to just do that (and sound his horn while doing it) and not come right up behind the other driver flashing his headlights.

kluivert wrote:

It was meant to be the person who said undertaking was acceptable, after carefully reading the posts I'd have to agree with Prospect.

So if there was someone ahead of you on a motorway, in the overtaking lane - road clear otherwise - doing 60-70Km/h... you think you're not legally allowed pass them on the left?

prospect

@ Bard,

I really fell you are being outrageously irresponsible posting your interpretation of the rules of the road here as though they are fact. You are 100% completely wrong here.

Why? Here are two reasons:

1. If anybody can pass on the left as you suggest, then how does a slower moving car switch from the right lane, back to the left lane with any degree of safety. Because according to your wacky ideas, they could potentially have a stream of cars 'undertaking' them. You would have people missing motorway exits constantly, because they would have cars passing on the left constantly.

2. How do you know they are impeding your journey? If you are in the left lane, and they are in the right lane, you would have to move into the right lane first to OVERTAKE, and see if they move back to the left lane. So if you think that you can maintain your road position in the left lane and bomb past cars in the right lane, your are wrong, because you do not know if they are actually impeding anything.

I just cannot believe this level ineptitude is driving on our roads, and then you have the cheek to come along here preaching your view on how you think it is, unbelievable.

The rule of the road you are quoting is for the specific situation where there are large numbers of cars in both lanes. If the outside lane slows down, it is not illegal for the cars in the inside lane to continue at the same pace.

2Tagz

el tel wrote:

Someone rightly pointed out in a similar thread a long time ago that cars
do not "appear out of nowhere".

You have eyes and mirrors. Use them.

That was a generalisation; I'm careful with my mirrors and how they're supposed to be set up and used after a close shave with merging traffic as an inexperienced driver.. have a gander at the rest of my post.

RobAMerc

I never said I came right up behind her and started flashing, I did so quite a bit back giving her ample time to move in.

I have done alot of driving in many different countires, and have used flashing of lights as I approached slower cars always and never had any of them hit the brakes like this or any other sort of adverse reaction.

Flashing a car in front is merely a signal to let them know a faster car is approaching, not an assault on your personality or some aggresive move no more than signalling with you indicator which this dirver clearly did not see or chose to ignore.

Why people seem to dwel on the fact I flashed her more than the fact she hit the brakes is totally beyond me!

Bard

*sigh*

Okay, I'll take the bait...

prospect wrote:

I really fell you are being outrageously irresponsible posting your interpretation of the rules of the road here as though they are fact.

They are fact. You've shown me nothing legal to say otherwise. Let's look at your "reasons" all the same...,

1. If anybody can pass on the left as you suggest, then how does a slower moving car switch from the right lane, back to the left lane with any degree of safety.

Firstly the slower car shouldn't be in the overtaking lane anyway. Secondly, they should check their mirrors at regular intervals and so should be aware of any oncoming vehicle on either side. Thirdly, anyone attempting to overtake them on the left should at least sound their horn as a courtesy to warn them that they're doing so.

Because according to your wacky ideas, they could potentially have a stream of cars 'undertaking' them. You would have people missing motorway exits constantly, because they would have cars passing on the left constantly.

Not according to my "wacky ideas", no... according to the RULES of the ROAD.

If someone is silly enough to drive slowly in the overtaking lane, then yes, of course they could have a stream of cars overtaking them on the left. - And hopefully one of those cars would be a garda car and they'd be pulled over for impeding the flow of traffic and causing danger to other road users.

Also, cars shouldnt BE in the right-hand lane if they're approaching an exit they wish to take off the motorway.

2. How do you know they are impeding your journey? If you are in the left lane, and they are in the right lane, you would have to move into the right lane first to OVERTAKE, and see if they move back to the left lane. So if you think that you can maintain your road position in the left lane and bomb past cars in the right lane, your are wrong, because you do not know if they are actually impeding anything.

If the rule is that I cannot overtake them on the left while they trundle along at, say, 60Km/h in the right lane, then YES, of course they ARE impeding my journey by forcing me to slow down! Thankfully, that isn't the rule. (And nobody said anything about "bombing" past cars).

I just cannot believe this level ineptitude is driving on our roads, and then you have the cheek to come along here preaching your view on how you think it is, unbelievable.

And there you go again with the personal insults. Can you not actually argue your point without stooping so low? Without knowing anything about my own driving sklls you first say I'm a bad driver, then you say I'm a troll, then you say I'm "inept". There's no need for that.

The rule of the road you are quoting is for the specific situation where there are large numbers of cars in both lanes. If the outside lane slows down, it is not illegal for the cars in the inside lane to continue at the same pace.

Nowhere in that particular rule in the book does it specify that it is ONLY for the situation where there are a large number of cars in both lanes.

I've asked this already, but I'll ask it again... Are you REALLY suggesting that on the motorway, if a car ahead of you is driving at 60Km/h in the overtaking lane, with the road clear otherwise, that I am breaking the law by overtaking it (while staying well within the speed limit, obviously) on the left?

RobAMerc wrote:

Why people seem to dwel on the fact I flashed her more than the fact she hit the brakes is totally beyond me!

Because she hit the brakes as a reaction to you flashing. It's hard to predict what people will do when you flash them. A lot of people see that as an aggressive action and don't react well to it. Sometimes it's better to indicate right (showing, more politely, that you want to pass them).

BrianD3

Bard wrote:

Actually, what it says is more along the lines of "if traffic in the right-hand lane is moving more slowly than traffic in the left-hand lane".

You left out the bit about "in slow moving traffic". This is vital. A single car hogging the overtaking lane on an M-way at 40 mph is not "traffic in the right lane moving more slowly than traffic in the left lane in slow moving traffic".

In the UK Highway code it is stated slightly differently and possibly more clearly as it specifically mentions traffic moving in queues. But both the Irish ROTR and Highway code are referring to the same scenario.

<edit> see Alun's post in the undertaking thread, he has summed it up well.