Charlie Haughey, Should you go to his funeral????

Snickers Man

One word sums up Haughey: Coward

He could quite clearly see that belts needed to be tightened, spending needed to be cut, hardship had to be endured---but not by him. Keep on sending the money for the Charvet shirts lads.

Coward.

He could clearly see that this was the program for gorvenrment that was needed in 1987 but didn't have the guts to stand for it. So he campaigned on a pie-in-the-sky manifesto, got elected and then appointed hatchet man McSharry to slash the health service budget knowing that Fine Gael wouldn't oppose him.

Coward.

He was involved in the movements leading up to the Arms Trial yet when it was over he left others to carry the can. He, after all, had his career to think about.

Coward.

He was quite able to play the green card for political gain, even getting his PR teams to hint (in Magill Magazine in the early 1980s) that all the Haughey bashing in the media was being orchestrated by the British. Yet his government provided much closer co-operation with the British on border security than Coalition governments ever did and Maggie Thatcher makes it quite clear in her memoirs that she much preferred Haughey to Fitzgerald. (A case of aithnionn cuireoig, cuireoig eile if ever there was one)

Coward.

I don't buy this 'he did great things for the country' mallarkey. I think if anything McSharry, who put his reputation on the line to force through the cuts in the late 1980s, or Dukes who eschewed temporary political gain to support those cuts while in opposition deserve more credit. Haughey manipulated things so that if it all went pear shaped he wouldnt get any of the blame (more cowardice) and yet there are some people who want to give him the credit now. Amazing.

Diorraing

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.
Having said that though, his corruption is a very bitter pill to swallow. Such talent wasted. Also, he opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement which was a bit silly. I'll have to balance the good and bad of his career before I decide.
He should have a state funeral, however, I think its tradition for all Taoisigh. Even de Valera gave Eoin O Duffy a state funeral because he was a garda commissioner though he despised the fascist. If no-one turns up to his funeral, fine, but he should at least have that dignity

Snickers Man

Diorraing wrote:

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of

If you are of that opinion,that's one thing but the way he dived for cover and let others carry the can cannot be something you admire, can it?

and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.

Cobblers! Like I said: hardship was fine as long as he and his closest cronies didn't have to endure it. Ansbacher accounts for them; closed hospitals for the rest of the population.

The people who deserve the most credit for the Celtic Tiger are those who lived and worked and paid their taxes (mostly) in Ireland throughout the 1980s. (I'm not one of them). Haughey in opposition stymied and obstructed any attempts at controlling the public finances which had largely gone out of control on his and Jack Lynch's watch. Then having campaigned against the brutality (sic) of the coalition's policies in the 1987 he implemented them all and then some when he got into power.

Some might say "Ah sure Jaysus isn't he the cute hoor? Ye want to watch that Haughey. He's a fly boy but sure isn't he a great man all the same?"

In which case I can only say Bog off down to South Kerry and vote for Jackie Healy-Rae.

dbnavan

Even though i can not stand the man, am 100% against FF, I cant stand the sight, or sound of him. He made a joke of his office, held two fingers up to the judicial system. He is still someones husband, father, uncle, grandfather, and he is about die, apperently.

So lets just respect that on here. If he gets a poor turn out at his funeral that will be message said! And No he shouldnt get a state funeral IMO.

Akrasia

Ken Shabby wrote:

The ones that couldn't do with a dollop of Brasso of some size could be counted on the fingers of one hand on a one-fingered man.

so thats joe higgins then?

you might not agree with his politics, but you must admit, he has a lot of integrity

JohnnySideburns

Diorraing,

I wasn't giving Garret Fitzgerald full credit for turning the economy around in the late 1980's. I was just stating that before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

Snickersman, this is similar but not the same as your argument. What do you think?????

Snickers Man

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Diorraing,

I wasn't giving Garret Fitzgerald full credit for turning the economy around in the late 1980's. I was just stating that before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

Snickersman, this is similar but not the same as your argument. What do you think?????

Pretty much.

SCULLY

dbnavan wrote:

Even though i can not stand the man, am 100% against FF, I cant stand the sight, or sound of him. He made a joke of his office, held two fingers up to the judicial system. He is still someones husband, father, uncle, grandfather, and he is about die, apperently.

So lets just respect that on here. If he gets a poor turn out at his funeral that will be message said! And No he shouldnt get a state funeral IMO.

Good post - I agree 100%

is_that_so

According to Shakespeare there are seven ages. Most of Haughey's best ages were before almost all of the posters here were born and at a time when this country was mired in the distant past. Go read about it properly before passing judgement. For me he tainted his legacy. He had ability and talent but he became corrupt. The bad outweighs the good but at least I know what the good is. TBH some posters here hate Haughey because they should.
But I agree with respect. Go or don't go, but don't tell the world why you won't go. I am not sure that anyone really cares.

Victor

Diorraing wrote:

he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.

To paraphrase Clinton "Its demographics, stupid."

No, I'm not trying to insult anyone.

JohnnySideburns

(Deleted Message)

JohnnySideburns

Diorraing wrote:

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.
Having said that though, his corruption is a very bitter pill to swallow. Such talent wasted. Also, he opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement which was a bit silly. I'll have to balance the good and bad of his career before I decide.
He should have a state funeral, however, I think its tradition for all Taoisigh. Even de Valera gave Eoin O Duffy a state funeral because he was a garda commissioner though he despised the fascist. If no-one turns up to his funeral, fine, but he should at least have that dignity

Diorraing,

I also have news for you when you say "His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of". In the years leading up to the Arms Crisis, Charlie Haughey never made any public statements in relation to Northern Ireland. It was quite odd that he as Minister for Finance got involved. A highly likely explanation behind it was that Neil Blaney was gaining influence in a certain niche of Fianna Fail by trying to import arms. Haughey got involved to prevent Neil Blaney getting too far ahead in the race to succeed (or even overthrow) Jack Lynch as party leader. The whole move was only motivated by his leadership ambitions and not to help the plight of the Nationalist cause.

Diorraing

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Diorraing,

I also have news for you when you say "His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of". In the years leading up to the Arms Crisis, Charlie Haughey never made any public statements in relation to Northern Ireland. It was quite odd that he as Minister for Finance got involved. A highly likely explanation behind it was that Neil Blaney was gaining influence in a certain niche of Fianna Fail by trying to import arms. Haughey got involved to prevent Neil Blaney getting too far ahead in the race to succeed (or even overthrow) Jack Lynch as party leader. The whole move was only motivated by his leadership ambitions and not to help the plight of the Nationalist cause.

Maybe so and his performance in the trial was shameful.

clonycavanman

They say he dodged paying a million pounds (in old money you understand) of income tax, and that was wrong. But we got more than a million pounds of laughs out of Charlie, and he gave us something else that was very scarce in the 70's and 80's; self respect. He was one of us, no holier than anybody else, and he was the Taoiseach by our choice, and his own merits ; and without any foreign sponsor. He made mistakes, and the man who made none never made anything. He was perhaps 'fortunate in his enemies' as one columnist observed. I hope he's well, and lives long enough to see his career put in perspective and his reputation repaired.

Wouldn't go because it's in Dublin and that's a bit of a haul. Would go if it was on in the local town though.

Unlike some here, particularly 'I hope he dies screaming' comment, I don't confuse myself with God and pass judgements on people's souls. I mean, Zebra3 and Jamesozzie mustn't know where to start dancing what with all the graves of nasty people around the country. Interesting morality, taking money is wrong (undoubtedly), but someone's passing away hilarious. That's one bizarre set of principles there folks, putting money on a higher pedastel than life itself. Maybe you are not so unlike the man whose death will bring you so much happiness...

Cronus333

jamesozzie wrote:

god i really loathe that evil man.

The only "good" things he done for the country were done to benefit himself. He has the wealth now to support his family for generations and it all came from taxpayers money.

And I really hope his funeral doesnt come out of taxpayers money, that would really be the cherry on the cake.

As for attending his funeral - not a chance. The day he dies will be a joyous occasion. I might organise a bit of a rave on his grave if anything if anyones interested?

My grandparents did that when de Valera died. they have framed photos and all! its hilarious!

Cronus333

Cronus333 wrote:

My grandparents did that when de Valera died.

They danced on de Valera's grave? And your family thought it hilarious?

That's just very very strange and twisted behaviour by any standards. I mean, I might not get too upset about Beal na Blath and the fact that Collins lost what small bit of brain matter he had around there, but I don't go around beaming from ear to ear.

My grandparents taught me respect...

Cork

CJH achieved much - Social Patnership, IFSC, Temple Bar, Government Buildings etc.

Even the bus passes for the OAPS - this is being brought in to the UK by 2008. CJH was a superb Minister & a good Taoiseach.

Credit where it is due.

He took money like many other politicians.

He got loans written off - which was not uncommon either.

His achievements were many - that is not to say that he had no flaws.

Victor

Deleted User wrote:

That's one bizarre set of principles there folks, putting money on a higher pedastel than life itself.

Well it would be judging the man based on his own principals.

Victor

Victor wrote:

Well it would be judging the man based on his own principals.

Yes, but can I take it that in the interests of consistency that the people who would dance on Charlie Haughey's grave stand up at their neighbour's funeral and shout - 'we should dance, that b*****d beat up his wife/drank all his money/made a false insurance claim/did nixers while on social welfare etc. etc.'. I bet they haven't. But then again talk on a website is so cheap of course and double standards are everywhere.

I see this thread has descended into a blue shirts under the bed debate... Leave it out lads will ya.

Honestly the number of people who vote for FF or FG because of the 1920's and following their gt grandparents is getting fewer and fewer.

This is 2006.

As regards Haughey,I'll give him at least one thing he was and is a clever man.
He took gifts and dodged his bank managers and used his political position to do so.
Theres a fair point in here somewhere-who doesnt use their position in life to get what they want regardless whether it is relatively the right thing to do or not?

Haugheys corruption was to use power entrusted in him by the people to feather his own nest.He was also ruthless in maintaining that power given the stories we hear regarding Jim Gibbons being beaten up on the Dáil floor because he opposed Haughey.

Theres a lot of bad there and betrayal as well as some good.

As regards his funeral when he dies,I've been taught to respect the dead regardless.
I'd find that hard to do in the case of a paedophile or a murderer but pretty easy in most other cases because its the right thing to do.
In Haugheys case,I'll say RIP when he does die then.

Snickers Man

I think there's plenty of room for divergence of opinion between 'He was the greatest statesman the country ever produced, where would we be without him, we should lie him in state for a month and mark his anniversary with a nationwide two minutes silence ever year'

and

'I'll dance on the fecker's grave'

Personally I thought he was vermin and corrupted the whole political process in this country. His arrogance was incredible. His cowardice legendary.

The photograph of him riding to hounds with those muck savages from Mayo the Bailey brothers like the English gentry he encouraged the rest of us to hate is so reminiscent of the pigs in Animal Farm as to be uncanny.

But dance on his grave? Not my style.

Sponge Bob

Just heard he is gone !

Tricity Bendix

Link?

ireland.com have nothing to say about it.

Hagar

I think he is mixng up Gene Pitney and Charlie, a common mistake.

anonymous_joe

He was a smart bastard, and a great (by which I mean skilled) politician. Hopelessly corrupt though. Not much of an FF-er anyway, but all of CJ's good decisions are counter-balanced by corruption and deceit.

Ken Shabby

Ken Shabby wrote:

You wear one of those, and I'll wear one saying "Where's The Grave, I'm Dying For A P*ss?"

As a matter of interest, are you or have you ever been (i) in the Labour Party or (ii) on this site under a different name or names?

flogen

Looks like you won't have to make your mind up just yet:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0407/haugheyc.html

The former taoiseach, Charles Haughey, has been discharged from hospital.

RTÉ News understands that he was released from hospital in Dublin earlier this week.

He was released from the Mater Hospital after receiving treatment for pneumonia.

Cork

Sponge Bob wrote:

Just heard he is gone !

Des O Malley heard the same rumours in the 80's.