Martin Cullen and the rules of the road

smarty

I was listening to the radio yesterday, when they were talking about the new penalty point system that is being implemented this weekend.

There was a quote that drives should use this weekend to familiaries themselves with the new penalty point infringements.

Then there was a quote from the minister. He said "it is about the simple things, such as stopping at a yield sign".

I think it is really funny that the minister for transport doesn't know the rules of the road.

junkyard

What would you expect from a muppet like Martin Cullen he probably doesn't even drive himself anyway, he's probably driven around in a state car like the rest of that shower.

shnaek

Martin Cullen is a gimp. The sooner he gets fired the better. Even Waterford people hate him. The fact he got away with the electronic voting and the consultant issues and then was made minister shows what you need to get ahead in politics in Ireland. Brass f*cking neck.

Hobbes

smarty wrote:

Then there was a quote from the minister. He said "it is about the simple things, such as stopping at a yield sign".

I think it is really funny that the minister for transport doesn't know the rules of the road.

Maybe I am missing something but what he said is correct.

Alun

You don't have to actually come to a complete stop at a Yield sign if you don't need to, whereas you must do so at a Stop sign. The clue is in the names ... Yield versus Stop ... get it?

alias no.9

Cullen does seem to be a bit of an incompetant. FF would be at risk of loosing his seat in waterford if he was to be stripped of his ministry and that's ptobably the only reason he stays off the back benches. As for all of this fuss about new penalty points, they are not new offences, I'd like to know how many people have been charged with any of them in the last year? Detection seems to be the problem rather than penalties, there are already penalties in place.

Torak

alias no.9 wrote:

Detection seems to be the problem rather than penalties, there are already penalties in place.

Partially agree with that statement, but, and I think this is the beauty of penalty points, the new punishment can streamline the process for Gardai and make it easier to punish those detected without ending up behind a mountain of paperwork.

Existing legislation means that for any of the offences which now have new penalty points in place a summons must be issued and court dates must be attended. In general there is a significant amount of overhead which draws on the resources of the Gardai.

I believe, although it may not have been the original intention, that Two points standard, Four if contested policy will ensure that the paperwork is kept under control and the use of resources as a result of issuing the punishment will be less. This allows the Gardai to become more active in the area, and has the same effect as adding resources by cutting back on the overall negative effect of issuing the punishment, whilst still ensuring that the ordinary individual has a valid recourse if they have a grievance with the decision.

I think that this is the key to why the system does actually contribute to making the roads safer, and why the long term effect of adding new items to the list is going to be a good one.

I don't necessarily think it was designed this way!!

Blitzkrieger

Torak wrote:

Two points standard, Four if contested

You don't see anything wrong with that? That a person who's innocent of a crime should be discouraged from going to court in case a stiffer penalty is handed down?

I was advised not to contest a speeding ticket by a solicitor because he didn't think I had much chance of winning and I probably would have got four points instead. There's a fair legal system for you. My defence probably wouldn't have been the best though : "There's no way my car could have been clocked at 60k over the limit because I know for a fact I was doing 40k over the limit"

Torak

Blitzkrieger wrote:

You don't see anything wrong with that? That a person who's innocent of a crime should be discouraged from going to court in case a stiffer penalty is handed down?

I suppose idealism gets in the way of realism sometimes and I forget that in reality this will not work the way it is intended!.

In an ideal world, one would hope that this would discourage only those who felt they were guilty and likely to not win the case.

If you were actually innocent one would hope that, in general, an innocent verdict would be returned and the result would be 0 penalty points.

If you were proved guilty and deemed to have wasted the courts time then your punishment is doubled!!!

There are good and bad aspects...

Blitzkrieger wrote:

I was advised not to contest a speeding ticket by a solicitor because he didn't think I had much chance of winning and I probably would have got four points instead. There's a fair legal system for you. My defence probably wouldn't have been the best though : "There's no way my car could have been clocked at 60k over the limit because I know for a fact I was doing 40k over the limit"

I've never been caught speeding. If I was caught speeding I would not contest because I was guilty. If I was wrongly accused of speeding I would fight the case in court and hope that based on my character, good record and lack of evidence to the contrary (considering of course that I was innocent) I would be deemed innocent.

I accept that no system is perfect and I may be found guilty even if I was not guilty. I would follow through with all appeals procedures available until such time as every avenue afforded by the legal system (and my pocket) were exhausted. If at the end of that I was still found guilty, so be it, as the alternative is far worse than a few penalty points.....

Hobbes

Alun wrote:

You don't have to actually come to a complete stop at a Yield sign if you don't need to, whereas you must do so at a Stop sign. The clue is in the names ... Yield versus Stop ... get it?

Actually your supposed to slow down and prepare to stop. What he is referring to is people generally ignore them altogether.

Lets not beat about the bush here. A large percentage of drivers on the road have no fricken clue how to drive or totally ignore the rules of the road. I for one will be happy when a large number of the muppets are removed from the road.

Boggle

In an ideal world, one would hope that this would discourage only those who felt they were guilty and likely to not win the case.

But in reality it limits the ability of the innicent and guilty alike to defend themselves.
The question is do you consider simplifying a garda's ability to fine us worth the curtailing of our rights?? After all, its only a silly speeding offence...:rolleyes:

MontgomeryClift

The threat of detection is not there for the existing penalty point offences, so why should it suddenly appear with the addition of new offences that are probably harder to detect?

Hobbes

Boggle wrote:

After all, its only a silly speeding offence...:rolleyes:

1/4 of all fatal car crashes are due to speeding. ( http://www.penaltypoints.ie/some_offences.php#speeding )

I would prefer some muppet got a slap of points on thier license then being killed by said muppet.

shnaek

The only time I ever see the Gaurds is on Dual Carraigeways. Soon they will become tax collectors, like they are in the UK. Stations will be shut down if they are not economically viable. So you'll have them sitting on Dual Carraigeways until they nab x amount of drivers, thus satisfying the budget.

Just wait until privately operated speed cams come in. It has nothing to do with catching law breakers. For one I would prefer if the Gardai concentrated first on serious crime. Then they can get around to busting the chops of ordinary (in the most part) law abiding citizens. This whole roads thing at the mo is another great cloak over the fact that the government are making a Sh*te out of running the country.

shnaek

Hobbes wrote:

1/4 of all fatal car crashes are due to speeding. ( http://www.penaltypoints.ie/some_offences.php#speeding )

This is just a statement. Where are the facts to back it up? It is the responsibility of every citizen not to blindly accept some statements dressed up as facts on an official website. When they show me the stats to support this I will be more open minded on believing it. And I am not referring to the so-called stats on their web site. They are rubbish. The fact is that this country does not keep detailed stats on road accidents.

Alun

Hobbes wrote:

1/4 of all fatal car crashes are due to speeding. ( http://www.penaltypoints.ie/some_offences.php#speeding )

That isn't what it says at all. What it actually says is ...

Driving at an inappropriate speed is the cause of a quarter of all fatal crashes each year in Ireland.

An inappropriate speed for the conditions under which the crash took place could well be considerably below the speed limit for the stretch of road in question, say a really sharp bend on an 80km/h road which can only be safely negotiated at 40km/h or less, for example.

In addition, most comprehensive reports, i.e. not one-liner soundbites, concerning the causes of accidents reports that most of them have not one, but a number of simultaneous contributory factors, one of which is sometimes inappropriate speed. There are plenty of others, and to concentrate on just speed is too simplistic.

impr0v

Blitzkrieger wrote:

You don't see anything wrong with that? That a person who's innocent of a crime should be discouraged from going to court in case a stiffer penalty is handed down?

I know in reality it's almost mere semantics, but the actual penalty for speeding is four penalty points, and the driver gets a reduction of 2 points for accepting his/her guilt and freeing up court resoruces. Looked at in this way it's rewarding those who don't contest such a penalty for the sake of it (as it looked like you were going to do!) rather than an attempt to deter and further penalise those who have a genuine case to bring.

lomb

I think 2 points are fair if u go the wrong way up a motorway stupid politicians:rolleyes:

maidhc

lomb wrote:

I think 2 points are fair if u go the wrong way up a motorway stupid politicians:rolleyes:

That was a special concession for Jim McDaid

maidhc

Hobbes wrote:

1/4 of all fatal car crashes are due to speeding. ( http://www.penaltypoints.ie/some_offences.php#speeding )

And according to the latest ad on the paper 90% are due to driver error.

I get the impression these statistics are made up on the spot.

LostinBlanch

maidhc wrote:

And according to the latest ad on the paper 90% are due to driver error.

I get the impression these statistics are made up on the spot.

Like 87% of all official statistics :cool:

junkyard

And the most annoying thing is we've probably paid some government consultant millions to come up with these figures.:mad:

RobAMerc

This like most government initiatives is a publicity stunt for the government to seem like hay are doing something about the carnage on our roads.

They will put a few extra cops on the roads over the next few weeks to increase revenue and put the sh*ts up a few people but generally the ones who commit these offense will never have taken the time to find out what they are to avoid doing them in future.

Seth Brundle

What i would like to know is why was the penaltypoints.ie website offline for so long if all they came up with is what is currently there - something thrown together in an afternoon!