Interesting development in the UK...

Sparks

From the NSRA's website:

HOUSE OF COMMONS EARLY DAY MOTION - PISTOL SHOOTING & MICK GAULT

Kate Hoey MP, the former Minister of Sport, has set down a House of Commons Early Day Motion on the subject of pistol shooting. It reads:

EXEMPTIONS FOR THE SPORT OF OLYMPIC PISTOL SHOOTING

That this House recognises the importance of the success of Michael Gault in the pistol shooting events in the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne; and conscious of the fact that most of his training and that of other world-class pistol shooters has had to take place outside Great Britain due to the gun laws; calls on the Home Secretary to exempt the sport of Olympic pistol shooting from the handgun ban to allow athletes for the London Olympics to train at home.

An Early Day Motion is not debated in the House except in very exceptional circumstances which are not likely to apply in this case. The EDM is No. 1930 in a series which started with No. 1 being tabled on 17 May 2005. It is, however, an opportunity for back benchers to express a view on a particular subject. The greater the number of signatures appended and the more cross-Party support it receives the better. When originally tabled it was signed by five members of Parliament - three Labour, one Conservative and one Liberal Democrat.

To check the latest position, click on this link:
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=30407&SESSION=875

Government Ministers do not sign EDMs and Opposition Front Benchers only sign in special circumstances. However this leaves around 500 Members of Parliament who could sign. Some will disagree fundamentally with the terms of the Motion. Others take little interest in them and are very selective where they give their support. The highest number of signatures on a Motion at the moment is 350 and the subject is Climate Change. By the end of the Parliamentary Session probably less than 20% of Early Day Motions will have been signed by more than 100 Members. There is a page on the EDM section of the House of Commons website where you can check out your MPs’ track record - some may only sign a few, but others scatter signatures like confetti. A few have already signed over 1000 this Session!

There are a number of ways in which you can encourage your Member of Parliament to support the Motion. Write to him or her at the House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA.

Alternatively send an email. Almost all MPs are available via email and a link to them can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm

They are listed in alphabetical order. If you can’t remember the name, do a search (Ctrl + F) on the constituency.

Bill Wiggin MP gave very helpful advice on effective lobbying in the Winter 2005/06 edition of The Rifleman (page 13). Have a look back at it before you start writing your letter or message.

Finally remember that MPs generally do listen and read. Kate Hoey last put down an Early Day Motion on target shooting during the 2002/03 Parliamentary Session. I emailed my MP with a brief explanation of what I thought and why he should support the Motion. He read - he replied - he said he would add his name - and he did.

Maybe your MP will only need one communication to get his name on Early Day Motion No. 1930. That could be your communication.

Brian Woodall
31 March 2006

Hopefully it works; apart from the altruistic motives, if the UK were to reintroduce pistol shooting after the circumstances of it's banning, it would speak volumes about the sport to those who don't partake in it...

Clare gunner

Or you could just get a situation like Japan.Where only the Olympic team are allowed to posses their firearms,have to store them on range,and be accomplished shooters to be granted the liscenses.The rest of the subjects in the UK and Japan can go and take a leap the way things are going.It will just pander to an elitelist minority of the shooting sport in both countries.
Nice to see,but us Joe and Jane shooters wont really get much out of it.

Sparks

I keep hearing the elitist line in relation to olympic shooting. *sigh*
CG, how would you define an olympic .22lr semi-automatic pistol in a way that would exclude a sig mosquito from licencing? It's a damn sight harder than you'd think...

civdef

The Japanese way is to limit the number of licences that can be held for pistols (around 50 for the entire country, iirc).

Clare gunner

And how many people in Japan are on their Olympic shooting team,inc reserves etc???About 50.
Sparks,It's not the guns I am talking about it is the "good reason" requirement.Lets face it,it is abit extreme to demand olympic athletic qualifications to own and posses a pistol.That precludes 99.9% of a countrys general pouplation.There is your elitism.

Sparks

Thing is CG, which end of the wedge do you put into the log first?

KerryShooter

At least allowing some hand-guns to be owned & practised with in the UK by Olympic level shooters is better than a total ban + a step on the ladder towards lesser draconian restrictions.

Clare gunner

Thin end of course.But to use the wood analogy.Some pieces of very knotty wood just wont be split.Somtimes you need a chainsaw or a power splitter to break them to size.;)

Sparks

And to continue the analogy CG, when the log is twenty times bigger and heavier than you are, it pays not to try the BFI (Brute Force and Ignorance) approach to the problem!

Gray

The big problem with only licencing Olimpic standard shooters is how do you get to that standard without being able to practice in the fist place

demonloop

It might not amount to much but its a step perhaps in the right direction.

A lot of UK press coverage during the Commonwealth Games highlighted the plight of world class target shooters of all disciplines.

There was an article last week about how things at Dunblane might not have been everything they seemed, again this was covered impartially by the press which is as god an indication as any that the press are starting to realise what shooters have been saying for years, taking the legally held guns out of society has no effect on gun crime/ gun related killings.

With the way the UK press seem to tell the UK population what to think, you can usually take the stance of the tabloids as the position of the people in a media crazed country like the UK, the fact Ireland has been issuing pistol licenses again should only be a help.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

And to continue the analogy CG, when the log is twenty times bigger and heavier than you are, it pays not to try the BFI (Brute Force and Ignorance) approach to the problem!

True,just lay out which way you want to drop the tree,before you cut your felling notch.The mightiest tree will fall obiediently with a proper laid out cut.Anyways if the log is that big.A wedge wont do much,you have to chop it to manageable pieces.Then wedge the SOB apart.

Sparks

I think that may have overstretched the analogy there CG - I was trying to point out that even with a best guess of 180,000 shooters in this country, we're outnumbered 19-to-1 by the non-shooters, and in this country where "one man one vote" is the law of the land, we don't want to try to force the other 19 guys not to vote against us; we want to show them that we represent no threat to their safety and to vote against us would be morally wrong. Can't do that when waving a stick at them...

Smokeless Coal

It seems to me that you guys are pro shooting. I regularly post on.

http://www.glossover.co.uk/rts/
and I support
http://www.sportsmansassociation.org.uk/

If you want to help the movement to get pistols re-instated then please join us, sign in to our forum as members, there is no need to post though you would be welcome, just to add you to our numbers gives us encouragement.
There are hundreds of sites and we are all muttering, just imagine the voice if all were to join together. Ressurect the sport and The Sportsmens Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are working for you so show us that we are right and sign in.
As for the EDM's they are a guide to the opinions of MP's and whether there is a chance of success if a private members bill or other was submitted.

Smokeless Coal

Please read this

http://www.utilitygundogsociety.com/Urgent%20Message.htm

Two ladies face a mandatory 10 years sentence, very worrying.

Smokeless Coal

Action planned by UK shooting organisation

A great many shooters say they want to be more pro-active in the call for the return of pistols to the UK, well here's your chance.

Resurrect the sport and other groups have "action" planned to start on 29th September 2006 (to have maximum effect just before Parliament sit after the summer break).
We need as many as possible helping with this. The details are not to be released until about a week before the date, but you can indicate that you might join in by registering on http://www.glossover.co.uk/rts/

Spread the word

Smokeless Coal

What exactly are they allowing in Ireland?
what restrictions are there?
Is it available to all licence holders?

shc1

Laws/people are strange all over. Here in the US of A. hundreds of people are willing to talk to the media and or have marches to display a hatred of guns. Most of them will not admit the accompanying bodyguards carry firearms.
In short, if you can afford it let someone else do the shooting for you.

Smokeless Coal

Hi shc1
I was really enquireing to try to gain a bit of insight inot Irish regulations in comparison to the rest of the UK. We are all supposed to be one nation yet the laws in different areas vary.
Much like the States I suppose, where the big cities like NY and Chicago have tight regulations and high violent crime rates, and other areas allow concealed carry and have low crime rates.

macnas

Smokeless Coal wrote:

Hi shc1
I was really enquireing to try to gain a bit of insight inot Irish regulations in comparison to the rest of the UK. We are all supposed to be one nation yet the laws in different areas vary.
Much like the States I suppose, where the big cities like NY and Chicago have tight regulations and high violent crime rates, and other areas allow concealed carry and have low crime rates.

How are things on the mainland?????????????

Sparks

Smokeless Coal wrote:

Hi shc1
I was really enquireing to try to gain a bit of insight inot Irish regulations in comparison to the rest of the UK. We are all supposed to be one nation yet the laws in different areas vary.

Arf! Oh dear. Er, no, we're not the same nation SC, you're thinking of Northern Ireland

As to the questions:

What exactly are they allowing in Ireland?

Right now, any firearm your superintendent is happy for you to have. There are no legal restrictions to calibre or action type or anything else. However, superintendents are generally very conservative people, so you won't see too many AR-15s or 50-cals being licenced here for a good long while, though there is at least one SL-8.

what restrictions are there?

A good few, all pretty much common sense. You can't be a danger to the peace or the public with the firearm, you can't be disentitled to hold a licence (ie. be of unsound mind, be under 16, have been in jail in the past five years, etc), and you have to have a good reason to have the firearm. There are also restrictions after you get the firearm - you can't discharge it in an unsafe manner, there are hunting laws if you're hunting, and so on. Again, mostly common sense. At least on paper. In practise, things get a bit more muddy, mainly because those gardai dealing with civilian licencing aren't given sufficient training but are expected to be the ones taken to court if something goes wrong.

Is it available to all licence holders?

Er, is what available to all licence holders?

Vegeta

macnas wrote:

How are things on the mainland?????????????

I think he means the UK is meant to be governed by the same set of laws but they are being applied differently throughout the England, Scotland, Wales and NI. I don't think he was speaking about the Republic

Very similar to what is happening here at the mo with Supernintendos treating shooters differently

Smokeless Coal

Many thanks guys I have a slightly clearer picture. Seems in the republic common sense is prevailing. I'm still a bit vague about the North, from what I can make out its air only. Would like any more info you could give.

Is it available to all. Well there are whispers in the British parliment that a selected few might be allowed to have their pistols in the UK but under tight restrictions.
From what you have told me in Eire you have no problems like that obviously you have a better government.

Other parts of the UK well IOM and Channel Isles seem OK for shooting pistols, if my geography serves me well they are parts of the UK but the laws are different for them.

Appologies for my failure to specify that I was interested in NI regulations. Though the info on the republic is gratefully recieved.

Sparks

From what you have told me in Eire you have no problems like that obviously you have a better government.

You know, I actually don't like being the downer all the time.

Basicly SC, that's not quite the full picture. Right now, there are about 300 pistols licenced in this country, and while some people have had no difficulty with their licencing, others have had applications denied or onerous requirements placed on them. And that's under the old legislation. Under the new legislation, which has been signed into law but which has not yet been commenced by the Minister, it's due to become more of an endurance test, and may (at the Minister's whim) become outright impossible to licence any particular kind of firearm he cares to name.

Smokeless Coal

300 is a weak postion to be in sparks. I think your countrymen should get applications in quick.
The UK ban saw 67,000 shooters getting their pistols removed. Denied firearms certificates for rifles are not too often, I think the legal cost to the police of appeals which generally win puts them off a bit.

Macnas sorry I did not answer you. The UK mainland seems stable except airguns airsoft and replicas seem the target of UK.gov.

civdef

It is possible to licence a pistol in NI for target shooting, and this has always been the case AFAIK.

Sparks

Smokeless Coal wrote:

300 is a weak postion to be in sparks. I think your countrymen should get applications in quick.
The UK ban saw 67,000 shooters getting their pistols removed.

I don't think the numbers would do us any good SC, not the way the new legislation is written. And court cases may not be of a huge amount of use in the long run either, at least not as a primary strategy. This isn't new information - it was in fact pointed out to us back in '72 by the government, according to several shooters who were involved in an attempt to have pistols returned at that point. Basicly, any long-term successful strategy would have to be based on good relations with the government of the day, and a strong public image as safe and harmless sportsmen; not an adversarial relationship as seems to have developed here over the past decade or so.

Smokeless Coal

One argument for the return of pistols in the UK is that Britain is not acting in the spirit of the olympic charter

From the olympic charter:
The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practicing sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

There are letters waiting for a reply to that have gone off to the IOC requesting that they take action. During aparthied South Africa was boycotted by sportsmen. I would like to see the 2012 olympics suffer the same fate, but other sportsmen don't seem to associate shooting as a sport. A victory on these grounds might make other countries have a little more respect for the sport. Rather than just emphasizing that use criminals pistols the sportsman is as far removed from such activity as is possible.

Civdef is that target shooting at club level or just a select few?

Sparks

I would like to see the 2012 olympics suffer the same fate

I've seen this argument before SC, and frankly, it makes little to no sense. All boycotting an event will do is to create embarressment. However, Blair's government has shown itself to be effectively immune to embarressment, so why would shooters who have dedicated years of effort and enormous amounts of money, and who have made massive sacrifices in so doing, boycott the games they've trained for, without any real hope of a positive outcome? It makes no sense!

Far better, IMHO, to take the approach taken by the Irish athletes who competed as part of the GB team in 1906 in Athens and who then used the attendant celebrity to voice their protests to a wider audience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_Summer_Olympics

Peter O'Connor of Ireland won Gold in the hop, step and jump (triple jump) and Silver in the long jump. In protest at being put on the British team, O'Connor scaled the flagpole and hoisted the Irish flag, while the pole was guarded by Irish and American athletes and supporters.

Smokeless Coal

By boycott I meant all sportsmen en bloc not just shooters.

About our shooters, UK.gov propose that just a selected few would be allowed to practice, how wil they be selected, by committee?.
And that there will be a qualifying event. The only ones in a postition to enter this qualifying event will be those select few, very few others will have had the chance to practice. So we will field a team selected by committee.
As for them investing enormous ammounts of money. UK.gov has allocated £4.8million funding for our shooting team. I feel the reason they want the selected few shooting in the UK is just penny pinching.

I think IOC regs have been tighted up regarding protest, but still I like that idea. Some UK shooters are suggesting entering free pistol with LBR or specials built to comply with UK law by having 12" barrels and 24" overall. There is no way they could be competetive but the embarasment factor would be there. Trouble is the BBC are so biased against shooting it would not get media coverage so would not have any effect.

civdef

Target shoooting at club level.

http://www.nitsa.org.uk/