Should RTE stop playing the Angelus?

DublinWriter

Considering the generally multi-cultural nation that Ireland now is, should our National Broadcaster still be playing the Angelus?

Personally, I was always a bit lukewarm about it and would have said that no, it shouldn't really be played.

However, after learning that RTE only started playing the Angelus in 1950 due to a direct request from Archbishop McQuaid, then I'm totally against it.

flogen

Is this a political question?

I'd say why not? They're hands are somewhat tied in my opinion, after all Catholicism is still the religion of the vast majority of this country and as Public Service Broadcaster they are obliged to respect that... isn't the place of the church enshrined in the constitution anyway?
I'm all for programming that deals with other religions (like Who's afraid of Islam? for my own education as much as for recognition of others), but while I'm not a very religious person myself, I can see why the angelus is still played.

Have any groups made an official complaint about it anyway?

Hobbes

I don't see the big deal tbh.

pete

it's an anachronism.

Bin it.

Gurgle

flogen wrote:

I'm not a very religious person myself, I can see why the angelus is still played.

Have you seen anyone praying to the Angelus in the last 20 years?
(I know some of my neighbours used to when I was a kid :rolleyes: )

Litcagral

They removed the associations with religion (e.g. Virgin & Child pictures) several years ago and now show muli-cultural scenes as it it meant to be a time for reflection.

It also gives one the chance to catch the BBC news headlines before RTE's Six One begins.

Litcagral

Gurgle wrote:

Have you seen anyone praying to the Angelus in the last 20 years?
(I know some of my neighbours used to when I was a kid :rolleyes: )

My mother-in-law. Twice daily.

DublinWriter

flogen wrote:

Is this a political question?

Yes. This is Ireland. Relgion is politics and vice versa.

flogen wrote:

I'd say why not? They're hands are somewhat tied in my opinion, after all Catholicism is still the religion of the vast majority of this country and as Public Service Broadcaster they are obliged to respect that...

So we should only look after the majority religious group? Isn't that the same thinking that made the situation in N.I. go t*ts-up in the 60's over Civil Rights?

Exrtreme example, but to me the Angelus is a bit like the government replacing it's official Harp letterhead with a crucifix.

Indeed, RTE's symbol was St.Bridgit's cross up until very recently.

Peronally, I think all relgious symbolism should be removed from public service bodies.

Zombrex

On the one hand its not like the Angelus offends me or anything, but I still think it is silly to keep it. It harks back to a time when the state was the church and the church was the state, an era we should be trying to cut ties with. The idea that the national broadcaster should just stop for a minute for religious reasons is ridiculuos.

So while not strong feelings on it I think it should be removed

It is a bit dated alright.

Perhaps if Muslim countries stopped playing the muezzin RTE could look at it...

Manic Moran

Mick went to the church one day, for confession. After he was finished, the priest says:

"Well, my son. For your pennance, say five Hail Marys."
"Er.. I don't know the Hail Mary, Father"
"OK. Give me ten Our Fathers."
"I don't know that either, Father"
"Well, what prayers do you know?"
"I know the Angelus"
"Say six of those so"
"Bong.... Bong.... Bong...."

NTM

RE*AC*TOR

Its a quaint throwback to a different era. Its not offensive, I'd see no reason to do away with it.

Nevyn

Many religions pray at that time as it is the end of the day.
Recently this has been worked into the angelus, nothing wrong with a 1 minute remind to take tht 1 minute out and reflect on the day what ever your beliefs.

BaldiePablo

Why get rid of it? I'm not a religious person and don't pray when it's on ... but there are still people who do so I think it should be left where it is. Personally I turn it off so why can't anybody else who doesnt like it... While I understand that it kinda references the Catholic religion and that there is a vast religion diversity in Ireland, I do think we should retain at least a portion of what this country stood for all those years ago!

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

nothing wrong with a 1 minute remind to take tht 1 minute out and reflect on the day what ever your beliefs.

Nothing wrong with it gone either.

If someone want to take time out of the day to reflect on anything they want thats fine, do it any time you want.

But that is no reason for the national broadcaster to just stop at 6pm (or 6am or noon, as they do on radio).

And while the window dressing of multiculturalism might be put on the angelus on RTE1 to make it seem less obvioulsy "Catholic", it is still a Catholic event. Muslims have little need for a 1 minute break in broadcasting at 6pm (Islamic prayers last longer than a 1 minute and don't have to fall exactly at 6), and I doubt Jewish and Hindus think it is that good either.

Religion should be personal, not dictated or instructed or lead by the state.

Zombrex

BaldiePablo wrote:

I do think we should retain at least a portion of what this country stood for all those years ago!

What, oppression and intolerance?

ateam

Scrapped entirely...no place for religion in modern Ireland.

Ray777

I know it's not fashionable these days to express any kind of tolerance towards Catholicism, but I really don't see any harm in playing the Angelus for one minute every day. If there was any serious opposition from Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc, those calling for its removal may have a point, but there isn't and to be honest, it just seems like pettiness to me.

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

ateam

Ray777 wrote:

I know it's not fashionable these days to express any kind of tolerance towards Catholicism, but I really don't see any harm in playing the Angelus for one minute every day. If there was any serious opposition from Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc, those calling for its removal may have a point, but there isn't and to be honest, it just seems like pettiness to me.

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

It isn't whinging..it is a serious issue. The Angelus has no place in Ireland anymore.. If you want to say the Angelus, you can say it without it being bonged at 6 o'clock or whatever time RTE think 6 o'clock is.

DublinWriter

As the OP, I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition!...

Seriously, I think the Angelus should be replaced with a roll call of the month's road fatalities every day at 6pm, just like the Late Late did last Friday.

Seeing the death-toll daily would do more to make people think twice than showing the current stuff-video safety-ads that we've all become desensitivised to.

Ray777

ateam wrote:

it is a serious issue.

If you think one minute of televised bell-ringing before the evening news is 'a serious issue', you must have an awful lot of time on your hands, tbh.

Zombrex

Ray777 wrote:

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

If it is such a trivial issue why would anyone object to it being removed? If keeping it is trivial then surely getting rid of it is equally trivial no?

Are we supposed to just keep it because it exists already? Not quite following the logic in that.

Calling it a trivial issue seems to me to be just a way of dismissing or avoid the issue. It only seems to become a big issue when people start objecting to removing it, yet these are the same people who claim that it is too trivial an issue to be bothered with and therefore shouldn't be removed.

If it is too trival for you why object to it being removed?

ateam

Ray777 wrote:

If you think one minute of televised bell-ringing before the evening news is 'a serious issue', you must have an awful lot of time on your hands, tbh.

haha...its gives out an image that Ireland is inward.....an image you seem to favour.

jdivision

From The Sunday Business Post a couple of years ago:
RTE has not discussed dropping the Angelus since the Freedom of Information Act was introduced in April 1998, despite an increasing amount of public debate on the issue. RTE turned down a Freedom of Information request on the matter because no minuted meetings or discussions on the issue have taken place on the issue since the Act came into force.
In replying to the request, RTE stated that they continue to broadcast the Angelus ``on the grounds that the Angelus bells allow a minute for spiritual reflection for listeners and viewers''.
``Whilst the Angelus prayer is a specifically Roman Catholic prayer the concept of a minute to recognise the spiritual side of the Irish people is acceptable outside of the confines of the Catholic church. Indeed support for the practice has come from all the major Christian churches and from the Chief Rabbi.''
The Freedom of Information officer went on to say that as far as he was aware RTE has no plans to change its policy on the issue.
The request was also turned down on the basis that it relates to programme editorial functions, which are excluded under the Act. The state broadcaster has been transmitting the Angelus on television for 40 years and longer on radio.

ateam

ateam wrote:

haha...its gives out an image that Ireland is inward.....an image you seem to favour.

I dont know that it does in its revamped form.
The only church seen in the video I think is Glendalough.

Speaking of inward,I don't see a campaign in the UK to change their national anthem from "God Save the Queen" to " Some random higher power if there is one save the Queen"...

So do you think the Brits are inward? God save the queen still goes out on Radio 4 every night religously (forgive the pun)

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote:

As the OP, I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition!...

Seriously, I think the Angelus should be replaced with a roll call of the month's road fatalities every day at 6pm, just like the Late Late did last Friday.

Seeing the death-toll daily would do more to make people think twice than showing the current stuff-video safety-ads that we've all become desensitivised to.

I wasn't going to bother replying to this as the bongos don't offend me but the above suggestion (preferably with pics of the deceased with families' consent) is a much better use of that 1 min before the news. It has a large vewership because it is immediately before the news, repeat the same again at 9pm. That'd be a much better public service.

Zombrex

Earthman wrote:

So do you think the Brits are inward? God save the queen still goes out on Radio 4 every night religously (forgive the pun)

True, but then they have a Queen. How many Irish people would think saying God Save the Queen at the end of the news would be trival?

Its all degrees.

To an English person saying God Save the Queen is trival, even if they aren't that bothered about the monarchy itself. Doesn't mean it is trival for an Irish person to say that just because we used to, and even if the phrase is largely meaningless.

To a Christian the angelus is trival. Doesn't mean it is to a non-christian.

If one supports a complete seperation of church and state, as I do, then the issue of the angelus isn't trival at all. Or to put it another way, it is trival in a "no-brainer" kinda way, and I can't see why people would make keeping it such as big deal.

I would liken it to the removal of the "God" from the US pledge of allegence.

The christian right said exactly the same thing as people are saying here, that it reflected the majority of the nation and it was trival for the non-Christians to just put up with it and say it.

But when it was found to be actually illegal under the constitution it wasn't exactly trival for the Christian-Right not to say it. Suddenly it became a big big issue. Maybe they should have considered how the other side felt instead of dismissing their feelings as trival.

civdef

Whilst the Angelus prayer is a specifically Roman Catholic prayer the concept of a minute to recognise the spiritual side of the Irish people is acceptable outside of the confines of the Catholic church. Indeed support for the practice has come from all the major Christian churches and from the Chief Rabbi

I remember at one stage before when this was a matter of debate in the media, faith leaders of various denominations stated they had no problem at all with the broadcasting of the Angelus bells, and had no objection to it's continuance.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

True, but then they have a Queen. How many Irish people would think saying God Save the Queen at the end of the news would be trival?

Its all degrees.

I doubt many would jump up and down if they heard someone say "bless you" to a sneese either."Bless you" is actually a shortened version of "God Bless you" As you say its all degree's but I'm not speaking here about the issue of triviality,I was responding to the question of being inward looking.

If one supports a complete seperation of church and state, as I do, then the issue of the angelus isn't trival at all. Or to put it another way, it is trival in a "no-brainer" kinda way, and I can't see why people would make keeping it such as big deal.

Yeah but the way I look at that is, the minute at 6pm is not the angelus to non catholics, its a programme the same as any other programme.
It has its origins in a religous prayer for sure but its only a programme.
None of us have to watch it but all of us can use it if we want to.Theres definitely a public service demand for it as I'd feel confident that if it were to be announced that it was to be removed, those that treat it as a religous minute would be out on the streets to defend it and keep it.
I'd lay a bet that there would be more percetage wise in the population out there to support its retention than there are viewers for many other quirky high brow public service programmes.
I'll defend those programmes as well.

Gurgle

Earthman wrote:

Theres definitely a public service demand for it

This being Ireland, it probably costs €2,000,000 per episode.

If they want to see what the market is like, they should sell a DVD box set - 40 years of the Angelus. Then if the sales don't represent a significant portion of the population they should scrap the 'show'.

GeorgeBailey

DublinWriter wrote:

So we should only look after the majority religious group?

I agree. And at Christmas time, they should be wishing us all "Happy Holidays".