IoffL are over-reacting

rmc

Even if eircom or others were to supply 100 % of the country with BB capability, how many people would subscribe to BB?

Not too many more than are connected right now, and thats a fact.

Dial up is even more expensive than some BB packages, yet most people that have BB enabled lines have not changed over to BB.

Some people just don't want BB. Some people don't even have phone lines let alone PCs at home.

I'm sure BB will continue to be rolled out at a steady pace. The quoting of so called "negative economic impacts" is nothing more than scare mongering. eircomtribunal etc just don't have anything substantial to go on about.

What about talking about Aidsand starvation in Africa,
"One person every 2 seconds needlessly dies from starvation, water borne diseases or AIDS."
http://www.starvation.net/

Get Real, Open your minds to the outside world, BB etc is not THAT important.

OfflerCrocGod

rmc this is the IrelandOffline forum that's why we don't talk about starving people in Africa. I hope that helps clarify why we talk so much about the poor state of BB in this country, as opposed to, say....the weather.

zuma

rmc wrote:

Even if eircom or others were to supply 100 % of the country with BB capability, how many people would subscribe to BB?

Not too many more than are connected right now, and thats a fact.

Dial up is even more expensive than some BB packages, yet most people that have BB enabled lines have not changed over to BB.

Some people just don't want BB. Some people don't even have phone lines let alone PCs at home.

I'm sure BB will continue to be rolled out at a steady pace. The quoting of so called "negative economic impacts" is nothing more than scare mongering. eircomtribunal etc just don't have anything substantial to go on about.

What about talking about Aidsand starvation in Africa,
"One person every 2 seconds needlessly dies from starvation, water borne diseases or AIDS."
http://www.starvation.net/

Get Real, Open your minds to the outside world, BB etc is not THAT important.

This is a broadband related forum...so we talk about....you guessed it BROADBAND.

Go to the "Soc" or "Rec" forums if you wish to talk about the starvation in Africa.
I'll start you off......
"Should to UN take over peacekeping operations from the 7,000 AU troops in Sudan?"

Goodbye!

smellslikeshoes

Rmc's post made me laugh, How about you go and pay 200+ euro a month paying for a pithifull dialup service because of no available broadband.This is what I have been doing and I would have no problem sacrificing my right arm to get broadband.

uncle_sam_ie

I bet you anything RMC works for ComReg.

rmc

Zuma, OfflerCrocGod

It is dangerous to be right when the FORUM is wrong. - RMC

Answer me this?
Why in the locations where there is BB, have people not taken it up?
... AND DON'T SAY PRICE
Ans: The demand is not there.

Not sure of the figures, but something like 80% lines are suitable for BB... Why aren't people using BB then?

Sure there are a few more people that would like it, some live in areas that may never get it. Perhaps if it is that important for them they should consider moving? One can't live on the top of mount everst and complain about poor BB coverage!

watty

Your figures are very wrong rmc.

Only a proportion of exchanges are enabled. Outside of cities maybe over half lines are too far for ADSL even if lines OK.

Too many lines have pair gains or similar (stops BB working).

Even inside "magic distance" and without pairgains, too many lines arn't good enough. Some are not even real solid copper.

In terms of actual households maybe only 30% to 50% can actually get it. widespread availability encourages demand. Below a certain level of availablity some people won't bother applying.

A demand of 1/3rd then might only translate to a 15% takeup of BB per household in whole country. Or even less. As NO full accurate figures are supplied publically as to condition of Eircom lines.

Some Rural exchanges enabled could have only 5% working lines for ADSL.

Eircom's figures only measure enabled Exchanges. Not % housholds that can actually get ADSL.

watty

IBB have a terrible reputation for their wireless. Yet can't cope with demand for BB product.

The same for the other Wireless vendors. The better wireless products are expensive compared with UK ADSL, but none of the operators complain of lack of demand. They are swamped. New customers often complain of long wait for install... BECAUSE of HIGH Demand.

The Demand for ADSL on phone wires is nearly entirely limited by availablity.

Jumpy

OMG, re-arrange the letters.... RMC ... MCR....McR.....McRedmond

bk

rmc wrote:

It is dangerous to be right when the FORUM is wrong. - RMC

Answer me this?
Why in the locations where there is BB, have people not taken it up?
... AND DON'T SAY PRICE
Ans: The demand is not there.

I'm sorry you are just wrong and you don't know what you're talking about.

IOFFL carried out a survey only a few months ago that showed:

1) There is very high demand for BB.
2) A very high number of people who wanted BB, couldn't get it because lack of availability.
3) Many people thought BB was just too expensive, specially when you include line rental (highest in Europe).

I'd estimate that Eircoms DSL only serves about 50% of homes.

In areas where Eircom has DSL and there are other operators like NTL and Smart we have seen very high uptake figures, which in fact are some of the best in Europe.

Some I'm afraid you are just wrong.

rmc

Hi BK,
just to reference
"IOFFL carried out a survey"... that's hardly going to reveal much?
As we all know any survey depends on the audience and the questions that were asked. Can get a survey to reveal anything you want!

Even if we quote your figures below - "I'd estimate that Eircoms DSL only serves about 50% of homes", that's over 800,000 lines... say we nearly have 300,00 on dsl...

Why have the 500,000 + not availed of BB? It is not price.

How much does mobile phone cost a month?
How much does ESB cost a month?
How much does Bord Gais cost a month?
How much does NTL/SKY cost a month?
How much does mortgage cost a month?
How much does life assurance cost a month?
How much does health insurance cost a month?
How much does car insurance cost a month?

Imagine cost 9.99 per month for BB even on top of line rental - its not too high a figure. People are probably paying more on dial up.

There are some that would like BB, but can't get it now. As the BB rolls out most will be able to get it in the future. However, some will never be able to get it over their phone lines. Wireless/satellite will be their only option. That's life!

As i said earlier "One can't live on the top of mount everst and complain about poor BB coverage!" If you want BB, live in an enabled area.

Why have the 500,000 + not availed of BB?

paulm17781

So RMC, who do you work for or what do you do?

You seem to disagree with IoffL strongly. Any reason?

damien

Oh my god, he has us lads. Better shut down right now before he proves how even more completely ignorant of the situation we are.

Actually do you have a point or are you just here to knock everything that IrelandOffline has to say?

bk

rmc wrote:

Even if we quote your figures below - "I'd estimate that Eircoms DSL only serves about 50% of homes", that's over 800,000 lines... say we nearly have 300,00 on dsl...

Ah, now I see your problem, you seem to think that we are demanding 100% BB take up. We are not, even the very top countries only have a BB penetration of about 25%. What we are complaining about is that the Irish BB penetration is incredibly low compared to the European average and we are down with the new developing countries. Our BB penetration is just 4.3%, compared to 4.6% for Hungary and 3.3% for Poland.

There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have a BB penetration of the European average of about 14-15%.

Look at it this way, as of June 2005 the UK had a BB penetration of 13.5%, compared to just 4.3% in Ireland. Now we share the same language as the UK, we get paid almost the same as them, we have a very similar education system, we have a very similar culture, we share a very similar heritage, we live only a 100 miles from the UK mainland and we even share a part of the island with them. Yet we are way behind the UK in terms of BB penetration.

The only logic explanation for this is that BB isn't as widely available as in the UK and that it is more expensive.

All stats from http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2825_495656_35526608_1_1_1_1,00.html

rmc

With respect for what you are trying to do damien.m, paulm17781, the real problem with Ireland not being higher up on the BB ladder is that the demand isn't strong enough.

BT, eircom, UTV, NTL, MCI and many more sell BB. People aren't buying it. Why? It's not the price of BB itself -

Is it that computers are too expensive?
Or perhaps that people have access to the internet at work?
Is it that people are just too busy to get/use BB?

If we - ireland.inc, (or IFFOL) - can sort this one out the service providers will have the additional incentive to deliver the BB capability a little quicker?

nadir

RMC: I want a 10 Meg uncapped line, and Id like to be able to have it at price, say 40 euro/m in ANY City in Ireland. This is not possible in this country, but it should be, if we want to consider ourselves leaders in IT, we need to have the infrastructure to match, and not just for companies who can afford leased lines, but also for the people who work in all these industries.
We are MILES behind in this area, and have been since the start. We need inrastructure like in Sweeden, North Korea, Japan etc.
Bitching about IoffL isn't going to do anyone any favours, so what's your problem.

damien

Is it that computers are too expensive?
Or perhaps that people have access to the internet at work?
Is it that people are just too busy to get/use BB?

Lifted directly from a ComReg excuse report.

Demand is a red herring. If everyone that wanted broadband could get it then you would see our penetration rates soar. As SpongeBob has pointed out with the NTL example, their penetration rate is way higher than the national rate in their small(ish) catchment area. Why is that? Are those people the only ones who want broadband?

30% of businesses that wanted broadband could not get it according to the Chambers of Commerce. The recent survey from O2 showed that 50% of the business people they surveyed wanted to telework but could not because they could not get broadband. Good luck in telling them there's no demand.

Why is it that in a city like Dublin with supposedly 100% availability the phonelines melt in Newstalk radio whenever broadband is mentioned? MCI don't sell broadband to the public and I think you'll find BT and UTV will say there's plenty of demand and Digiweb have said there is a lot of demand on this very forum.

ComReg should monitor how many people have applied for broadband and could not get it and should publish the results in their quarterly flights of fancy. It'd be a fun read.

bk

rmc wrote:

Is it that computers are too expensive?

Cost the same as the UK and Northern Ireland (less then €400 new from Dell, a very sad excuse).

rmc wrote:

Or perhaps that people have access to the internet at work?

More people in the UK and Northern Ireland have access to the net at work, so explain that?

rmc wrote:

Is it that people are just too busy to get/use BB?

Again how is that any different from people in the UK and Northern Ireland.

So please explain why they have a BB penetration rate of 13.5% versus 4.3%?

The government must be putting something in the water in the 26 counties to keep down demand for BB down in just in the 26 counties :rolleyes:

It is quiet clear that the main issue is availability, followed (IMO less importantly) by price.

rmc wrote:

BT, eircom, UTV, NTL, MCI and many more sell BB. People aren't buying it. Why? It's not the price of BB itself -

Actually in the areas that NTL operate, they have a very high penetration rate of about 15%, the same as the UK.

paulm17781

You haven't answered my question on what you do for a living or where you work.

How can we get up to that level if broadband is not available? Answer: We can't.

Broadband should be available to everyone like it is in the UK, I know people in Dublin who can't get it, not because they don't want it. Because it is not available to them

rmc

Hi paulm17781, i work in Blackrock, in a small engineering company.

"How can we get up to that level if broadband is not available? Answer: We can't. Broadband should be available to everyone like it is in the UK, I know people in Dublin who can't get it, not because they don't want it. Because it is not available to them"

You are still missing the points I have already raised!

Of course all people in Dublin cannot avail of BB through their phone lines. Some never will be able! There are other options available to them. NTL have done great from what I am led to believe, DigiWeb etc can deliver to some of those people that cannot get BB through their phone lines.

In many many places BB (phonelines/NTL/satellite/Wireless) is available and not being taken up, why?

Can anybody answer this question?
Why is there no demand in these locations?

In time many other place will be capable of availing of BB. Will the demand in these places be as poor?

Sure 10 people shouting about it in the middle of the back of beyonds will make a lot of noise, but won't change the overall use too much. Sure it would be great it BB was available to everyone, IFFOL are fighting for this - great! What can be done to increase the demand?

IFFOL is full of very clever people, surely between the lot of you you could come up with something? i.e. change of approach! Perhaps co-operation/collaboration with eircom/BT/Digiweb/NTL might work? These guys want to sell BB... if there is a demand.

bk

rmc wrote:

Of course all people in Dublin cannot avail of BB through their phone lines. Some never will be able!

Why not, in the UK, BT are approaching 99% availability.

rmc wrote:

There are other options available to them. NTL have done great from what I am led to believe, DigiWeb etc can deliver to some of those people that cannot get BB through their phone lines.

In many many places BB (phonelines/NTL/satellite/Wireless) is available and not being taken up, why?

Can anybody answer this question?
Why is there no demand in these locations?

But they are, as I pointed out in my earlier post, which you have chosen to ignore, in areas where NTL is available there is a 15% penetration just for NTL, this is about European average. Unfortunately companies like NTL, Smart, etc are only available in very limited areas. This just goes to prove that availability is the problem, the national BB penetration figures are pulled down by all the areas that can't get NTL and the other companies.

rmc wrote:

In time many other place will be capable of availing of BB. Will the demand in these places be as poor?

Again you are basing this on incorrect information, areas that have varying BB operators like NTL have extremely good BB penetration rates

rmc wrote:

Sure 10 people shouting about it in the middle of the back of beyonds will make a lot of noise, but won't change the overall use too much. Sure it would be great it BB was available to everyone, IFFOL are fighting for this - great! What can be done to increase the demand?

IFFOL is full of very clever people, surely between the lot of you you could come up with something? i.e. change of approach! Perhaps co-operation/collaboration with eircom/BT/Digiweb/NTL might work? These guys want to sell BB... if there is a demand.

ROFLOL

I notice that you conveniently ignore all my posts. Can't come up with a reason why the UK has such a higher BB penetration rate?

You are also showing that you know nothing about IOFFL. IOFFL has been around for about 6 years and during that time it has been in contact and collaborated with all the companies that you mention above.

This whole thread is ridiculous, anyone with even the smallest experience of the BB market in Ireland knows that there is massive pent up demand for BB in Ireland and that the issue is availability. I've heard this from many engineers and managers that work for various BB companies here in Ireland.

watty

The ONLY company that claims DEMAND is the problem is Eircom. Everyone else sells as much % of the BB that they have available as the UK or more.

I don't know what statistics RMC is reading. I can only think he is Eircom Management or a Troll. His assertions are not backed by any Internationally agreed methods of measurement.

Regarding moving to get BB, does RMC not realise that Economic experts have identified Ireland as having NEGATIVE job mobility because it cost nearly 10,000 Euro to move to a same priced house. If you move from many areas outside Pale to Dublin, the extra cost for SAME quality of house may be over 200,000 Euro.

elexes

rmc wrote:

Answer me this?
Why in the locations where there is BB, have people not taken it up?
... AND DON'T SAY PRICE
Ans: The demand is not there.

i dont usually post here but saw this and thought i had to

last month a woman came to me asking to setup a wireless internet connection in her house . i asked her had she broadband to which she replied no but she had a monthly package to use up with her dial up . after a while talking to her i convinced her to order bb . when everything arrived i went out to her house i saw becides the laptop she told me about she had another pc . i asked did she want it also on the network and she said no that she was using that for her dial up hours . after another brief conversation she was convinced to put in a network card and use it on the broadband and save money cause u are no longer using the dial up package

the simple fact was she didnt know what broadband was and untill i told her about it was more then happy to stay on dial up .

hope this gives a part of your answer to your question . many people dont know what broadband is and how it can help them. Eircom etc.. is not doing enough to explain what it can offer these customers .

also the lack of demand question is no longer a issue considering that once a town has over a population of 1.5k people it will be getting some sort of bb in the next year or two


i also think myself is paying to much for a broadband service which should be better .

JohnC.

There is demand. I know lots of people who got it in Waterford when it became available. It's just become available where I live and I signed up right away. I've been waiting since DSL was something only existing in labs.

Of course, I only knew about this availability because of this board informing me of where to look and see availability. The fact that BB is available is not advertised anywhere. It's news to everyone I've spoken to. People are not going to buy something if they don't know it exists.

I also know people who do want broadband but can't get it because
1. Exchange not enabled
2. Exchange enabled but they live further than the arbitrary eircom limit
3. Exchange enabled, living close enough, but lines not good enough. Hell, my aunt and everyone around her recently lost even basic dial-up. Someone told them it is due to the lines being split too much. She said she will be giving them hassle.

Then there are other people who simply do not know about broadband and the advantages. Or they see it as a premium product which is more expensive, even though it is not.

Or they have been massivly stung by the stupid 20 hour limited faux-broadband. Turns out 2 people I know got this but were not aware of the limit. They were quite angry when their €20 deal cost them hundreds on their bill. They have since been educated

damien

elexes wrote:

also the lack of demand question is no longer a issue considering that once a town has over a population of 1.5k people it will be getting some sort of bb in the next year or two

Tell that to the folks in City Centre Dublin apartment blocks, tell that to Irish Times journalists living in swanky Dublin neighbourhoods, tell that to the folks out in Howth, tell that to those in Balbriggan, tell it to 25% of the population who will not be able to avail of these rollouts. That town thing is just great marketing.

mike65

C'mon Phil, you've had your fun.

Mike.

dahamsta

It's not Phil, it's Noel.

lucernarian

Why did I have to wait exactly 3 months for a Digiweb installation? That's right, they couldnt keep up with demand.

The NTL point is quite valid. There is a certain amount of demand. This demand is growing too. If demand is the rather low figure of 15%, in absolute terms, then there is still demand. I am certain that as more things require broadband and as broadband opens up new possibilities then this figure will continue to increase.

We are living in a first world country, several sectors of the economy needs broadband and investment in communications should not be an issue. If there are companies abusing their position in telecommunications in Ireland, then there will be a reason for IrelandOffline's existence.

netwhizkid

This guy (the Op) really is a wind-up merchant… Demand...Demand?? Holy mother of god, a load of people stuck on dial-up would love to get onto broadband. A great thing I have recently noticed is that as the BEBO phenomenon has caught on it has hooked loads of teenagers on the internet. I have got several Q's from fellow teens about why is the Internet so slow to load? Obviously the problem is Dial-up. BEBO is great as it will make teenagers complain and parent’s go bonkers when they get the massive Dial-up bill as a result, thus helping the cause as more people will make more noise. (I myself have attended a meeting of Fianna Fail and raised the issue very vocally and lobbied several government politicians) I got an answer from John O’Donoghue saying “Broadband is an issue for Private Enterprise” What crap eh?

The fact is most of us don't have access to Broadband and thus can't take it up, I myself spent almost €400 on a Skydsl satellite service, which now due to demand from Ireland and other non-broadband regions in Europe costs almost nothing in start-up fees and equipment fees. I bought a new computer and ensured that it would work with the Satellite broadband. I have been trying to get broadband since the start of 2004. I blame the privatisation of Eircom, but that is my opinion and fighting over it will do nothing we must try and work & negotiate to bring broadband to the masses at all costs. I am involved in a Community Group Broadband scheme and with a survey nearly completed we have got almost 10% of the population interested, However 10% of the population looks small it actually represents over 50% of households and when and if it becomes available more family members of such households would use it obviously. If not for the Internet then for Voip etc. Demand my ar*e its lack of availability that’s wrong.

eircomtribunal

watty wrote:

I don't know what statistics RMC is reading. I can only think he is Eircom Management or a Troll. His assertions are not backed by any Internationally agreed methods of measurement.

Unfortunately you are not correct here, watty. Look up the OECD stats here (It's an Excel file):
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/43/34082819.xls
Ireland's DSL coverage is, according to this OECD data, at 90%!
Despite my best efforts, the OECD is not in a position to use other information than the data "supplied by the national regulators and the incumbents" for these stats.
Unless 40% of the Irish population have recently moved into towns bigger than 1.5k, and the copper line quality and length in these towns has recently experienced a miracle make-over, these figures are simply nonsense. The PR guys of ComReg and Eircom can work miracles. Based on their own bullshît data tapestry they can then go out and insult us with their ongoing lack of demand argument.

Unlike most other posters in this thread (but one), I would concede that there is naturally also a lack of demand aspect in the Irish broadband malaise. Naturally, because we have been priced out of using the Internet over all the years by way of 3 euros per hour Internet dial-up access, which is ongoing to this day. The negative effects – visible from the beginning and predicted by IOFFL and myself – of this policy have been spin-doctored away by a lying bastard of a regulator. So we have a relatively low Internet usage and thus a lower demand for broadband as we would have otherwise. But no ComReg and no Eircom have the right to ask us arrogantly why we do not jump at bb as we should. And if they ask again we should answer: Because you, for the reason of incompetence in ComReg's case, and short term greed in Eircom's case, have fecked up our appetite and ability to adopt and embrace the Internet in every way you could.
P.

wexfordman

If RMC was around during the rural elctrification scheme, he would be posting this on boards

1) Why do we need electricity, people are happy enough with candles!!
2) If you want electricity, move to a city that has it.
3) People dont want electircity cos the light bulbs cost too much


Many of the problems with BB rollout at the moment relate to an incumbant wanting to maintain as much of a monopoly as it can, for as long as it can, and to keep selling things like ISDN, and dial up. Imagine that, sell ISDN, charge twice the line rental, and then twice the call charges if you want a measly 128k!!!. Thats for a technology that should have been binned 10 years ago.

And price of BB is an issue. The average cost telecoms for a normal household (or at least mine, if you consider that normal) is in excess of 100 euro's pm. Lets say line rental 25 + BB 40 + landline calls 30 + mobile costs.

100 euros pm for your telecoms is excessive, and I think is something that makes people think twice about where to spend that money.

If we had a reasonalbe line rental charge, and a reasonable BB charge (like in the uk and the rest of europe), we might see more realistic overall telecoms costs of around 50 to 60 euros pm (instead of around 100 euro pm), which is much more manageable. Do this, and bring about decent BB availability, and then you will start to see levels similar to the rest of europe.

Wexfordman