Denis Donaldson shot dead

mike65

Anyone suprised?

It was only as matter of time, I bet Mr G Adams is now really pissed off.

Its just been said he might have killed himself (which would be nice and neat for the Provos) so the spin is already starting.

Mike.

Freelancer

mike65 wrote:

Anyone suprised?

It was only as matter of time, I bet Mr G Adams is now really pissed off.

Mike.

Thats irony right?

Waits expectantly for the stock SF/IRA justification no4
"You can't go round making lurid gestures at the telly in a bar, I mean, abandoned famine cottage, and not expect consequences"

Johnny_the_fox

adams was speaking on the bbc.

he give out about the media - releasing the story before Denis Donaldson Family was informed...

Sand

I have to admit, Im a little surprised. No doubt many in SFIRA will be delighted to see Donaldson dead, but I had thought Adams would have impressed on them the importance of not murdering him.That said its possible he did indeed shoot himself, once hed served his PR role back in December he would have found a lot of doors closed in his face and a lot of threats and intimidation arriving in his post box. He would have been under immense pressure.

If he was murdered, its possibly a sign that Adams authority in SFIRA is being weakened as the demands to end criminality and the whole Slab Murphy affair rumbles on. SFIRA has profitted greatly from organised crime, they may be losing faith when they see Murphy getting done for his activities. Or Adams and Co could simply be extremely confident that they can murder people and get away with it. They got away with McCartney, and they got away with Eamonn McCann who was murdered for writing the book "Killing Rage" and giving testimony against one Thomas "Slab" Murphy in the libel trial he lost. Theyll probably get away with this as well if it is them. SFIRA voters have no problem with murder, Bertie positively drools over Adams, and British policy is quite clearly uninterested in what happens in Northern Ireland so long as bombs arent going off in London.

mike65

The Sunday World 'outed' his location, the gardai were investigating a break in when they found the body.

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

Sand wrote:

If he was murdered...

its possible the he could have been murdered by Secret Service... he could have talked about the deals between himself and the Secret Service, sometime in the future.

just from that newspaper report..

"The plan was to collapse the institutions to save Trimble – David Trimble was trying to out- DUP the DUP and in the end the DUP swallowed him up.

its not all 'lets help the SF/IRA' and cover up stories - up north...

ghostdancer

there's not a hope that PIRA murdered him, especially in the current climate.

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.


dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

both have secondary reasons for it also, on the republican side, the obvious fact that he was a spy, on the loyalist, the fact that he was a senior figure in the IRA for many years and oversaw some brutal killings.
around Ardara/Glenties has a considerable Real IRA presence also, although anyone who read the sunday world last week could easily have tracked him down...
of course, Special Branch deliberatly brought down Stormont before with their "spy ring" claims which were bogus, they could easily have him murdered, it wouldn't be the first time they've been involved in murders. one less former-informant is always a plus for MI5.

anonymous_joe

ghostdancer wrote:

there's not a hope that PIRA murdered him, especially in the current climate.

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.


dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

both have secondary reasons for it also, on the republican side, the obvious fact that he was a spy, on the loyalist, the fact that he was a senior figure in the IRA for many years and oversaw some brutal killings.
around Ardara/Glenties has a considerable Real IRA presence also, although anyone who read the sunday world last week could easily have tracked him down...
of course, Special Branch deliberatly brought down Stormont before with their "spy ring" claims which were bogus, they could easily have him murdered, it wouldn't be the first time they've been involved in murders.

Pity the murderers were IRA members whose crimes were concealed by their 'comrades.'

As regards the murder, it would be a very stupid act of the IRA to kill Donaldson. Not going to judge until more information comes out.

flogen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4877516.stm

Former senior Sinn Fein member Denis Donaldson has been found shot dead in the Irish Republic.

Mr Donaldson is believed to have been living in County Donegal since December when he admitted he had been a paid British agent for 20 years.

He was Sinn Fein's administration chief at Stormont before his 2002 arrest over alleged spying led to its collapse. Charges were dropped last year.

His body was found near the village of Glenties at about 1700 BST.

More from RTE:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0404/donaldsond.html

This is certain to create an interesting dynamic to the upcoming publication by the Irish and British governments; Ian Paisley is looking at Sinn Fein over the whole thing, for his part Adams has uncategorically condemned it and the IRA have denied involvement.

A splinter group, perhaps?

flogen

Apologies, Mike65's thread didn't show up when I clicked on politics, must have needed refreshing or something!

Mods please free to merge/delete

cranoo

mike65 wrote:

Anyone suprised?



Its just been said he might have killed himself (which would be nice and neat for the Provos) so the spin is already starting.

Mike.

dont thing so, Paisley just said on sky news his hand was cut off :eek:

ghostdancer

ghostdancer wrote:

dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

marco murphy

dont thing so, Paisley just said on sky news his hand was cut off

And said several other TV programmes have told him so.

ghostdancer

anonymous_joe wrote:

Pity the murderers were IRA members whose crimes were concealed by their 'comrades.'

quite. the IRA still didn't kill him though.

flogen

Ahern has called it a brutal murder, and Hain has said it was a barbaric act... suicide just flew out the window there.

ghostdancer

Earthman wrote:

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

quite. the IRA still didn't kill him though.

No one can prove either way at this stage.

It could be someone from the IRA acting on a personal vendetta, perhaps they wanted revenge after being sold out by someone they considered a friend?

All I know is, we all know nothing.

ghostdancer

flogen wrote:

No one can prove either way at this stage.

It could be someone from the IRA acting on a personal vendetta, perhaps they wanted revenge after being sold out by someone they considered a friend?

All I know is, we all know nothing.

sorry, i was talking about Robert McCartney with that comment.

i agree with you on the personal vendetta thing. that could well have been the case. although i'd still have my money on dissidents on either side opposed to GFA tbh.

ghostdancer

ghostdancer wrote:

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

No
Loyalists would surely have loved Donaldson-after all he was secretly on the side of the Brits.

Terribly inconvenient to be reminded that any Republican can be a dissident now as and when it suits,I know but conveniently possible none the less.

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

Buh?
Why would loyalists bother killing an ex-British spy who contributed to make a mockery of the IRA??

Earthman is right regards being a dissident republican, don't the IRA claim it was dissidents within their group who killed McCartney; of course that's another thread altogether.

Sand

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.

Well like I said SFIRA can and have got away with murder.

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

Its politically appealing alright. SFIRA can "whataboutery" with the best of them, and if it is pinned to a republican they are "dissidents" or "renegades". Theyre ably assisted in this by the British and Irish governments who desperately dont want to accept any republicans other than "dissidents" or "renegades" are committing crimes. Because if they ever had to had to accept SFIRA were dirty, theyd be forced to do something about it. Its the same reason U.N. reports on Darfur as loathe to include the term genocide, as that would force action.

SFIRA know it as well. They can do what they like, and so long as theyre not caught in the actual act itself, with photographs, video, eyewitnesses, and a signed statement by the Pope they can claim it was dissidents and everyone will accept it because everyone wants it to be dissidents.

I think that even if the Gardai find evidence Donaldson was murdered by SFIRA they will be pressured into concealing it. The argument "do you want to be responsible for bringing down the peace proccess, whats one life against thousands?" is a strong argument for those willing to look the other way.

ghostdancer

because he was involved with the IRA for many years, oversaw the murder of many Loyalists and civilian Protestants, and also the fact that SF are making huge strides in the PP at the moment.

that's plenty of reason for them to have him killed.

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

finnpark

ghostdancer wrote:

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

I agree. The whole thing is very sad. No-one has the right to take someone else's life.

Its wrong of others to use this man's death to gain political ground as is happening on this forum and already by political parties. Lets wait for the facts to be established first.

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

I agree that SF/IRA had nothing to gain from killing Donaldson, but I would have said the same about their armed struggle over the last few years, including the killings of Jean McConville, the NI Bank Robbery etc.

ghostdancer

finnpark wrote:

I agree. The whole thing is very sad. No-one has the right to take someone else's life.

Its wrong of others to use this man's death to gain political ground as is happening on this forum and already by political parties. Lets wait for the facts to be established first.

i agree completely.

ghostdancer

flogen wrote:

I agree that SF/IRA had nothing to gain from killing Donaldson, but I would have said the same about their armed struggle over the last few years, including the killings of Jean McConville, the NI Bank Robbery etc.

well jean mcconville was killed very many years ago in completely different climate, and there's still no link between theIRA and the northern bank. 4 people have been arrested for the NB robbery, one of them, a women today, none of them appear to have any involvement with the IRA, and one of them works at the bank itself.

anyway, i'm not going to bother speculating further on those matters as they're well discussed in other threads.

mike65

Is the severed hand meant to be symbolic? ie the hand that took 'the Queens Shilling'

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

mike65 wrote:

Is the severed hand meant to be symbolic? ie the hand that took 'the Queens Shilling'

Mike.

it could have (religous) meaning :

Left hand -> on satan's side of god. :eek: (also there is a story about Job? who lives in good wealth, before satan tortures him - thats what google throws up)

Right hand -> good side of god.

muffler

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

Dave!

muffler wrote:

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

Exactly, that's what p*ssed me off most about this... They have blood on their hands if they were the first to disclose his location. F*cking ridiculous, I can't stand these types of papers.

And whoever said SF have nothing to gain from this, they're right.

murphaph

His hand was severed by the shotgun blast as he put his hand up to his face to defend himself. That's what McDowell said earlier on Sky news anyway.

I'm pretty pzzled by it right now. It's not somehting Adams & Co. would have wanted but as has been said, where does the line lay between official SFIRA and the dissidents-it's all very blurred if you ask me.

I highly doubt it was M15 or Loyalists tbh. A republican of some flavour was far more likely IMO.