Denis Donaldson shot dead

flogen

Freelancer: I don't think it's quite the same, the Daily Ireland said suicide shouldn't be ruled out, while Sinn Fein are saying it's murder, but not in their name.

Finnpark: I don't know if it's fair to say the British abandoned Donaldson, I'd say he walked away himself, after he decided to go public with his spy-antics, do you think he'd have turned to Adams and say "yeah, I worked for the Brits, I'm really sorry about that, oh by the way they're still looking after me"? I'd say he knew he had to cut off ties with the British once it went public, whether he wanted to or not.

finnpark

Freelancer wrote:

The "Brits" wouldn't have exposed him iif he had information to hurt them.

The reason he was exposed was that the police board in NI found out about the set-up by the PSNI in Stormont and they couldn't keep a lid on it. British MI5 didn't expose him - it was the NI police board of which a certain Mr Paisley was a member.

MI5 could have killed him but my guess (only guess) is that it was a friend/relation (s) of somone he set up to be murdured by the RUC/UVF.

Again, we are all guessing here and we may be speaking through our arses - none of us know the real story and I doubt we ever will. It doesn't make a whole pile of difference.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Deeply ironic story in the Irish Independent today.

At the Magill Awards last night (for politician of the year, etc). Denis Donaldson had been nominated as "Survivor of the Year", and had been selected as the winner in that category.

...you couldn't make it up

Dave!

lol, yeah heard about that... harsh... (probably shouldn't laugh actually)

I think Bertie said earlier that Donaldson turned down Garda protection. hmmm, not sure what to make of that.

Cork

In traditional cold blooded style they waited till the furor died down, and they murdered him knowing that their mates in SF could have plausible denialibilty. Knowing that scum like Morrison would cover their tracks.

I think Bill Clinton's comments about drunks in a pub is very apt about NI. Years after the people of this country voted for the GFA - the situation is still at square one.

I admit politicians in NI are poor but years and years of stale mate is unacceptable. Voting for SF/IRA and DUP only cemented stalemate.

Tony Blair and Bertie put years into the NI peace process - why?

Their efforts are consistantly turned down. These 2 should leave NI politicians sort in out.

Yesterdays murder was typical of the NI Peace Process.

Victor

mountainyman wrote:

Anyway if you're so smart what are you paying for Petrol?

Is Slab doing petrol now?

Cork

Victor wrote:

Is Slab doing petrol now?

Is that the "Good Republican" and "supporter of the Sinn Féin peace strategy" slab?

According to Adams "slab" has been "wrongly demonised".

A fleet of tankers, computers, documents, two shotguns, over*30,000 cigarettes and over the equivalent of €800,000 in sterling bank notes, euro bank notes and cheques were seized. Four laundering facilities attached to a major network of storage tanks, some of which were underground, were also found.

Is it any wonder the Peace Process is a mess?

flogen

Cork wrote:

Tony Blair and Bertie put years into the NI peace process - why?

Their efforts are consistantly turned down. These 2 should leave NI politicians sort in out.

A good friend of mine has a theory; ignore Northern politicians for 12 months and then go back to them; I'm as confident as he is that they'd come out this time next year, arms linked with smiles on their faces, in agreement (whatever the nature of that may be)

Victor

flogen wrote:

A good friend of mine has a theory; ignore Northern politicians for 12 months and then go back to them; I'm as confident as he is that they'd come out this time next year, arms linked with smiles on their faces, in agreement (whatever the nature of that may be)

You forget the bit about looking them in a small dark dank hole.

Cork

I feel Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have wasted enough of their time on NI.

They have treated partys up their like babies - spoon feeding them every step of the way.

It is about time Tony and Bertie spent this time in areas like health and left NI politicans sort thing out.

My God - the Members of their Assembly are being paid for it.

nuttz

If republicans (organised republicans. SF/IRA) killed Donaldson, it was a stupid mistake.
If so, it reflects badly on them or will reflect badly on them.
History is revealing and will reveal that.

I doubt very much that British agents, etc (conspiracy theory rubbish) or SF/IRA for that matter were involved in his murder.

Logic leads me to believe that it must have been a random republican action.

For people who actually know/listened to his story/interviews(Denis Donaldson), it's hard to believe that his death could benefit SF or Unionists in a political way at all.

It could only be a random republican or some brit army person. Media is more than likely influencing me, but my gut says it was some random psychotic republican...

finnpark

nuttz wrote:

I doubt very much that British agents, etc (conspiracy theory rubbish) were involved in his murder.

I think that there is a great chance MI5 were involved according to the word on the street. Apparently MI5 wanted him rid off and were putting pressure ont he Special Branch in ROI to sort him out. He knew who most of the most prominent MI5 members were, knew how they operated and Special Branch operated and he has brought a lot of secrets to the grave. A coverup here is certainly possible - and what about the timing, it happened in the same week that the parties in the North are sitting down. Coincidence I think not.

We have to face it that some people don't want the peace process to work while the rest sit around pointing the fingers.

Freelancer

finnpark wrote:

I think that there is a great chance MI5 were involved according to the word on the street.

I'm sorry I refuse to believe anything that follows a sentence that includes the words "according to the word on the street".

The Corinthian

Freelancer wrote:

I'm sorry I refuse to believe anything that follows a sentence that includes the words "according to the word on the street".

"according to the word on the street" == "what my clueless mates said over a few pints yesterday evening"

ferdi

Cork wrote:

Tony Blair and Bertie put years into the NI peace process - why?

Their efforts are consistantly turned down. These 2 should leave NI politicians sort in out.

Yesterdays murder was typical of the NI Peace Process.

agreed. let them rot up there i say. why should our governments time be spent at this 'child minding service' they should ****ing well sort themselves out.

Freelancer

The Corinthian wrote:

"according to the word on the street" == "what my clueless mates said over a few pints yesterday evening"

You see? A comment so clueless you've got myself and the corinthian agreeing with each other.

finnpark

The Corinthian wrote:

"according to the word on the street" == "what my clueless mates said over a few pints yesterday evening"

Not quite so clueless I wouls say. Last year he told me that there was a spy at the very top of the republican movement and nobody could figure out who it was. There was some info the British government had that only the top people in that movement discussed. It was thought that Martin McGuinness may have been the spy, that was the word then but he wasn't far away to my own amazement.

Anyway, it may not be correct this time alright but its as likely as any other theory on here.

Freelancer

finnpark wrote:

Not quite so clueless I wouls say. Last year he told me that there was a spy at the very top of the republican movement and nobody could figure out who it was. .

Of course "he" did..... :rolleyes:

finnpark

Freelancer wrote:

Of course "he" did..... :rolleyes:

Im not sure what you mean. By the way he has no connection with the republican movement and not really politically motivated at all. He knows a lot of people who are through his business though.

Like I say, its the "word on the street". I never said it was set in stone.

Freelancer

finnpark wrote:

Im not sure what you mean. By the way he has no connection with the republican movement and not really politically motivated at all. He knows a lot of people who are through his business though.

Like I say, its the "word on the street". I never said it was set in stone.

Look if you've got actual facts or an opinion based on facts, share, it spreading what you claim some bloke down the pub told you about MI5 is going to be (quiet rightly) greeted with scorn and derision here.

flogen

Just to throw this out there, play devils advocate etc., but there is an aspect to the killing that hasn't been explored...
It's not an uncommon belief that the Irish and British Governments have in the past swept over the actions of SF/IRA in the hope that doing so would stop any derailment of the GFA... the NI Bank Robbery was seen by many as the straw that broke the camels back for Bertie and Blair; does anyone think that, if this was PIRA sanctioned either Governments would be quick to publicise it? After all, if it was this newly released blueprint would be dead in the water from the word go... I'm not saying that that's the case, but perhaps PIRA are clever enough to realise that just before the final plan was released was their only lasting opportunity to "tie up loose ends", as anything after that wouldn't be handled so carefully by the two governments.

ghostdancer

flogen wrote:

Just to throw this out there, play devils advocate etc., but there is an aspect to the killing that hasn't been explored...
It's not an uncommon belief that the Irish and British Governments have in the past swept over the actions of SF/IRA in the hope that doing so would stop any derailment of the GFA... the NI Bank Robbery was seen by many as the straw that broke the camels back for Bertie and Blair; does anyone think that, if this was PIRA sanctioned either Governments would be quick to publicise it? After all, if it was this newly released blueprint would be dead in the water from the word go... I'm not saying that that's the case, but perhaps PIRA are clever enough to realise that just before the final plan was released was their only lasting opportunity to "tie up loose ends", as anything after that wouldn't be handled so carefully by the two governments.

what loose ends would these be exactly? he's living in a remote area in donegal, no electricity, no water.
if PIRA wanted him dead, they would have killed him within hours of him admitting to SF that he was a British Agent. the media/public wouldn't have been aware of him being an agent, and the British certainly wouldn't publicise it. if they wanted to murder him, they would have done it then. even if they had waited, they could just of easily have taken him away, killed him, and then buried him and it could be claimed that he had fled the country or was gone into hiding again.
murdering him right before the Assembly is recalled would be of massive damage to SF, and serves no purpose, and they've nothing to gain from having PIRA do it.
as far as i'm concerned, the likelihood of who killed him is something like this:

-RIRA/CIRA (against the GFA/Stormont, don't want it being implemented, despise touts, many were members of IRA when Donaldson was involved with them before he switched into his SF role)
- Loyalists (don't want the GFA/SF powersharing going ahead, murder suspicions throw doubt on IRA criminality claims)
- MI5 (knew internal workings of security services, had lots of inside knowledge, possibly double-agent (the neighbours of the house in donegal have said they believed it to be an IRA safehouse), ultimately, damage limitation, again, if no-one caught, finger can still be waved in republican dirction)
- PIRA (basically because he was a tout and embarrassed SF when his role as an agent came out. no great reason why they would have murdered him otherwise.)

Freelancer

ghostdancer wrote:

what loose ends would these be exactly? he's living in a remote area in donegal, no electricity, no water.
if PIRA wanted him dead, they would have killed him within hours of him admitting to SF that he was a British Agent.

And the explanation for his death would be? They couldn't have killed him "within hours" it would have got out.

the media/public wouldn't have been aware of him being an agent, and the British certainly wouldn't publicise it. if they wanted to murder him, they would have done it then.

Thats a huge leap.

even if they had waited, they could just of easily have taken him away, killed him, and then buried him and it could be claimed that he had fled the country or was gone into hiding again.
murdering him right before the Assembly is recalled would be of massive damage to SF, and serves no purpose, and they've nothing to gain from having PIRA do it.

Hmmm what have the IRA done at an a delicate for the peace process moment? Oh robbed a bank.

-RIRA/CIRA (against the GFA/Stormont, don't want it being implemented, despise touts, many were members of IRA when Donaldson was involved with them before he switched into his SF role)

proof?

- Loyalists (don't want the GFA/SF powersharing going ahead, murder suspicions throw doubt on IRA criminality claims)

Loyalists aren't that smart or together.

- MI5 (knew internal workings of security services, had lots of inside knowledge, possibly double-agent (the neighbours of the house in donegal have said they believed it to be an IRA safehouse),

Link please.

ultimately, damage limitation, again, if no-one caught, finger can still be waved in republican dirction)

Thats assuming that he knew anything he was a british agent doesn't mean they told him anything more than what he needed to know. Its not like they took him to Mi5 HQ introduced him to "M" and "Q" and sent him on his merry way with a refitted Aston Martin and all the gadgets.

Agents like Donaldson are handled, they give information they don't get it.

- PIRA (basically because he was a tout and embarrassed SF when his role as an agent came out. no great reason why they would have murdered him otherwise.)

Because the IRA murder touts and murder them without care, years after they've stood up and defied they IRA. Eamonn Collins with testify to that

ghostdancer

Freelancer wrote:

Hmmm what have the IRA done at an a delicate for the peace process moment? Oh robbed a bank.



proof?

come on freelancer, at least make it difficult for me instead of clearly contradicting yourself.

by the way, how many IRA members have been arrested so far? do you know if the bank official and the other 3 people arrested who have no apparent links to PIRA have trial dates set yet?

as for the CIRA/RIRA involvement, well unfortunately PIRA doesn't publish it's members list, and their roles in the organisation. it's common knowledge, just like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness used to be on the IRA Army Council. lack of proof of who's in the IRA has never stopped you claiming that SF leaders were Army Council heads anyway.

as for the anti-GFA, well RSF and 32CSM have repeatedly called for it's end, so there's your proof right there on that one.

Freelancer wrote:

Loyalists aren't that smart or together.

how incredibly naive of you. they can orchestrate shipments of weapons into Ireland, but can't use common sense to try stall something they're clearly opposed to, and something that in absence of proof can easily implicate Republicans? you're really on the ball today, aren't you.

Freelancer wrote:

Link please.

www.google.com
go search for it yourself.

alternatively, read the Irish Independant/Evening Herald from yesterday where they had quotes from the neighbours.

Freelancer wrote:

Thats assuming that he knew anything he was a british agent doesn't mean they told him anything more than what he needed to know. Its not like they took him to Mi5 HQ introduced him to "M" and "Q" and sent him on his merry way with a refitted Aston Martin and all the gadgets.

Agents like Donaldson are handled, they give information they don't get it.

pehaps you should go read about the agent Brian Nelson, the information he received, then come back and realise how you're completely wrong on that point.

Freelancer wrote:

Because the IRA murder touts and murder them without care, years after they've stood up and defied they IRA. Eamonn Collins with testify to that

you're assuming he was murdered by PIRA, i'll refer you to your "proof?" remark earlier.
and there are many touts who weren't murdered and were instead threatened and told to leave the country instead. you should read a fe books on the working of the IRA if you want further insight into that practice.
also, your "murder without care" doesn't hold up either. i wonder what Scapp's up to these days? alive and well last i heard....

Freelancer

ghostdancer wrote:

by the way, how many IRA members have been arrested so far? do you know if the bank official and the other 3 people arrested who have no apparent links to PIRA have trial dates set yet?

Link please. Check the forum charter you state something as fact the onus is on you to support it.

as for the CIRA/RIRA involvement, well unfortunately PIRA doesn't publish it's members list, and their roles in the organisation. it's common knowledge, just like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness used to be on the IRA Army Council. lack of proof of who's in the IRA has never stopped you claiming that SF leaders were Army Council heads anyway.

They've admitted they were on the council at one point and offer no proof that they arent now.

As to the the CIRA/RIRA, what you're suggesting is they did this to blacken the name of SF? Come on....

as for the anti-GFA, well RSF and 32CSM have repeatedly called for it's end, so there's your proof right there on that one.

Thats not proof, that a logical leap.

how incredibly naive of you. they can orchestrate shipments of weapons into Ireland, but can't use common sense to try stall something they're clearly opposed to, and something that in absence of proof can easily implicate Republicans? you're really on the ball today, aren't you.

Oh grow up. You really think a couple of swarthy LVF thugs with union jack tattoos are going to be not noticed roaming donegal in search of a pre famine cottage?

www.google.com
go search for it yourself.

alternatively, read the Irish Independant/Evening Herald from yesterday where they had quotes from the neighbours.

You make a claim the onus is on you to support it. Not to wave me in the direction of google.

pehaps you should go read about the agent Brian Nelson, the information he received, then come back and realise how you're completely wrong on that point.

Perhaps you could do something better than "nuh uh", and wave me in the direction of Brian Nelson

you're assuming he was murdered by republicans, i'll refer you to your "proof?" remark earlier.

No I'm just in opposition to lurid fantastists making up elaborate excuses why the murder could have been carried out by anyone but the IRA.

and there are many touts who weren't murdered and were instead threatened and told to leave the country instead. you should read a fe books on the working of the IRA if you want further insight into that practice.
also, your "murder without care" doesn't hold up either. i wonder what Scapp's up to these days? alive and well last i heard....

And Collins hows he doing? How many years was he walking around, his is one of the books Ive read and he gives a good account of how the IRA murder without care*




* Waits fifteeen nanoseconds of the retort that "Collins was a dirty tout and should not be trusted."

anonymous_joe

Plenty of terrorists in Ireland. Could have been any of them.

While it would seem obvious that the IRA would be stupid to kill Donaldson, it would have been stupid of the IRA to cover up for whichever of their members killed McCartney... Not always the sharpest tools in the box our friends the 'Ra.

ghostdancer

Freelancer wrote:

Link please. Check the forum charter you state something as fact the onus is on you to support it.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=50473

Freelancer wrote:

They've admitted they were on the council at one point and offer no proof that they arent now.

link?

Freelancer wrote:

As to the the CIRA/RIRA, what you're suggesting is they did this to blacken the name of SF? Come on....

no i'm not. don't try put words in my mouth.

Freelancer wrote:

Thats not proof, that a logical leap.

well if that's the case then nothing is proof. if you don't believe that 2 organisations publicly stating that they're against GFA is proof that they're against it then there's no point even bothering.

Freelancer wrote:

Oh grow up. You really think a couple of swarthy LVF thugs with union jack tattoos are going to be not noticed roaming donegal in search of a pre famine cottage?

who said anything about the LVF? sure the LVF have stood down anyway. and your generalisation of Loyalist paramilitaries as thugs with union jack tattoos really is silly. by that reasoning Gerry Adams should be a tricolour tattoo sporting thug. :rolleyes:
do you honestly think that if Loyalists were intent on killing him that they'd just be driving round Donegal in the hope of spotting Dennis Donaldson coming out of a cottage>? come on, use some common sense.

Freelancer wrote:

You make a claim the onus is on you to support it. Not to wave me in the direction of google.

i have supported it, go read the newspapers. it's quite simple really. if you don't want to then that's your problem, not mine.

Freelancer wrote:

Perhaps you could do something better than "nuh uh", and wave me in the direction of Brian Nelson

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2944007.stm

i'm sure you can do further reading if you'd like.
either way, your claim that agents weren't supplied with information is wrong.

Freelancer wrote:

No I'm just in opposition to lurid fantastists making up elaborate excuses why the murder could have been carried out by anyone but the IRA.

who's saying that it could be anyone but them? save the personal insults and re-read the part where i offered up reasons why PIRA could indeed have killed him.just cos someone doesn't agree with a anti-All Things republican viewpoint doesn't mean they support PIRA.

Freelancer wrote:

And Collins hows he doing? How many years was he walking around, his is one of the books Ive read and he gives a good account of how the IRA murder without care*

he is one of the books you've read? i don't know what you're trying to say there.
i'm not trying to claim that PIRA didn't murder people who crossed them, that much is common sense. however, your claim that PIRA murders touts without care is just silly, as i pointed out, but you chose not to comment on, and instead latched onto the IRA killing Collins part.
i'm still waiting on that proof that there was IRA involvement in his death, otherwise i'll be quite contend you're throwing around what you believe to be facts witout providing any proof of them.

Freelancer wrote:

* Waits fifteeen nanoseconds of the retort that "Collins was a dirty tout and should not be trusted."

quite.:rolleyes:

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

what loose ends would these be exactly? he's living in a remote area in donegal, no electricity, no water.
if PIRA wanted him dead, they would have killed him within hours of him admitting to SF that he was a British Agent. the media/public wouldn't have been aware of him being an agent, and the British certainly wouldn't publicise it. if they wanted to murder him, they would have done it then. even if they had waited, they could just of easily have taken him away, killed him, and then buried him and it could be claimed that he had fled the country or was gone into hiding again.
murdering him right before the Assembly is recalled would be of massive damage to SF, and serves no purpose, and they've nothing to gain from having PIRA do it.

You think the IRA would allow a British spy to die anonymously?? Do you think they'd allow such an opportunity to send a message to the troups to slip by? Don't you think the sudden death of someone freshly released from prison after allegations of spying for SF would have raised more eyebrows than the death has at this point?

Sure, murdering him has done SF no favours, but the IRA have increasingly tried to prove that they tell SF what to do, not the opposite... besides, if my theory was correct, and the authorities declined to name the IRA as culprits it would have no bearing on SF either way.

Freelancer

ghostdancer wrote:

http://www.4ni.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=50473

How does that link support this claim by you

ghostdancer wrote:

by the way, how many IRA members have been arrested so far? do you know if the bank official and the other 3 people arrested who have no apparent links to PIRA have trial dates set yet?

Nothing in that link supports your claim re trial dates.

link?

For what? Whether Adams or Mc Guinness admission they were in the IRA, or that Adams and Mc Guinness can offer no proof that they are currently not in the IRA?

no i'm not. don't try put words in my mouth.

Then what pray tell did you mean by this

ghostdancer wrote:

-RIRA/CIRA (against the GFA/Stormont, don't want it being implemented, despise touts, many were members of IRA when Donaldson was involved with them before he switched into his SF role)

well if that's the case then nothing is proof. if you don't believe that 2 organisations publicly stating that they're against GFA is proof that they're against it then there's no point even bothering.

:rolleyes: Please ghostdancer stop with the verbal gymnastics. You offered;

ghostdancer wrote:

as for the anti-GFA, well RSF and 32CSM have repeatedly called for it's end, so there's your proof right there on that one.

as proof that the RIRA or CIRA could have done it. I'm not denying that they are opposed to the GFA just that you cannot offer it as proof that they wanted Donaldson dead.

who said anything about the LVF? sure the LVF have stood down anyway. and your generalisation of Loyalist paramilitaries as thugs with union jack tattoos really is silly. by that reasoning Gerry Adams should be a tricolour tattoo sporting thug. :rolleyes:

Speicious reason Adams in a thug in Armani, he like his unionist counterpart have the thugs do the work for him.

do you honestly think that if Loyalists were intent on killing him that they'd just be driving round Donegal in the hope of spotting Dennis Donaldson coming out of a cottage>? come on, use some common sense.

Pot Kettle Black. How would they find him, remember according to you it was an "IRA safe house" the Sunday World article didn't include a map.

i have supported it, go read the newspapers. it's quite simple really. if you don't want to then that's your problem, not mine.

Again the forum guidelines are clear, you make a claim the onus is on you to support it not wave me the direction of google.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2944007.stm

i'm sure you can do further reading if you'd like.
either way, your claim that agents weren't supplied with information is wrong.

I didn't say agents weren't supplied I'm saying its a leap between saying since he was a british mole, that he must have had valuable information and therefore thats why MI5 murdered him.

Theres a world of difference between a former FRU member and a Sinn Fein Mole.

he is one of the books you've read? i don't know what you're trying to say there.

I said "his is one of the books I've read" refering to Eamonn Collins biography killing rage. Its not my fault you cannot read english.

i'm not trying to claim that PIRA didn't murder people who crossed them, that much is common sense. however, your claim that PIRA murders touts without care is just silly, as i pointed out, but you chose not to comment on, and instead latched onto the IRA killing Collins part.

i'm still waiting on that proof that there was IRA involvement in his death, otherwise i'll be quite contend you're throwing around what you believe to be facts witout providing any proof of them.

You're the one creating spurious reasons for everyone but the IRA doing it.

samb

Freelancer wrote:

I didn't say agents weren't supplied I'm saying its a leap between saying since he was a british mole, that he must have had valuable information and therefore thats why MI5 murdered him.
.

I can't understand the thinking that it was the MI5 who murdered him. They are experts in intelligence gathering and all that mullarcky. Why would they share valuable information with Donaldson? They may have had information on him, but not the other way round. He would have worked on a need to know basis and I don't think as a mole he would have needed to know much, if anything about the affairs of MI5.

I think people are just trying to confuse everybody away from the obvious motive. He was killed because he was a traitor to republicanism. I am not saying I think it was sanctioned from top SFIRA people (we have no reason to believe it was) but to suggest it was not republicans of any ilk is in my view very wild speculation.