Denis Donaldson shot dead

flogen

fair point samb, I doubt Donaldson even knew what other moles there were in SF/IRA, assuming there are some.

finnpark

samb wrote:

I can't understand the thinking that it was the MI5 who murdered him. They are experts in intelligence gathering and all that mullarcky. Why would they share valuable information with Donaldson? They may have had information on him, but not the other way round. He would have worked on a need to know basis and I don't think as a mole he would have needed to know much, if anything about the affairs of MI5.

I think people are just trying to confuse everybody away from the obvious motive. He was killed because he was a traitor to republicanism. I am not saying I think it was sanctioned from top SFIRA people (we have no reason to believe it was) but to suggest it was not republicans of any ilk is in my view very wild speculation.

I don't think it matters who carried it out. Its not like he was a vital part of the peace process. Its very significant though that he was murdered 2 days before the NI talks - its just too much of a co-incidence. It was more than a grudge surely, it was politically motivated.

Freelancer

finnpark wrote:

I don't think it matters who carried it out.

I think it matters a great deal. The PIRA are supposed to have stood down, and aren't supposed to be active any more. If they still have weapons and are killing thats a massive roadblock to the peace process.

Its not like he was a vital part of the peace process. Its very significant though that he was murdered 2 days before the NI talks - its just too much of a co-incidence. It was more than a grudge surely, it was politically motivated.

The article exposing him came out in the last few days, that could have been the cataylist.

muffler

Freelancer wrote:

I think it matters a great deal. The PIRA are supposed to have stood down, and aren't supposed to be active any more. If they still have weapons and are killing thats a massive roadblock to the peace process.
QUOTE]
So you have concluded that the IRA have killed Mr Donaldson.

I think your talents are wasted posting on the boards

Freelancer

muffler wrote:

So you have concluded that the IRA have killed Mr Donaldson.

I think your talents are wasted posting on the boards

Never has single post deserved just this before.......

:rolleyes:

muffler

Freelancer wrote:

Never has single post deserved just this before.......

:rolleyes:

You're welcome. But stick with the full time job though

Muffler
Do not get personal in threads here.

Freelancer

samb wrote:

I can't understand the thinking that it was the MI5 who murdered him. They are experts in intelligence gathering and all that mullarcky. Why would they share valuable information with Donaldson? They may have had information on him, but not the other way round. He would have worked on a need to know basis and I don't think as a mole he would have needed to know much, if anything about the affairs of MI5.

Exactly, Donaldson was a mole theres a world of difference between himself and Nelson, people just don't want to see that.

mountainyman

ghostdancer wrote:

what loose ends would these be exactly? he's living in a remote area in donegal, no electricity, no water...

He's alive...

ghostdancer wrote:

...
murdering him right before the Assembly is recalled would be of massive damage to SF

How; Knack tionalists accept the right of the IRA to kill Catholics.

ghostdancer wrote:

- Loyalists (don't want the GFA/SF powersharing going ahead, murder suspicions throw doubt on IRA criminality claims)

How is this is in the interests of any Loyalist organisation. This is good for the DUP but they have no armed wing. Real Loyalists hate them.

ghostdancer wrote:

- MI5 (knew internal workings of security services, had lots of inside knowledge, possibly double-agent (the neighbours of the house in donegal have said they believed it to be an IRA safehouse), ultimately, damage limitation, again, if no-one caught, finger can still be waved in republican dirction)

If he was a double agent then yeah. Otherwise How would he have alot of inside information

ghostdancer wrote:

- PIRA (basically because he was a tout and embarrassed SF when his role as an agent came out. no great reason why they would have murdered him otherwise.)

Apart from revenge and the long established principle of killing touts.

What about the idea that it was a murder carried out by paramilitaries/ex paramilitaries without organisational support.
I have mentioned the West Tyrone Brigade specifically, but you get three people whose friends / comrades died because of intelligence passed on by Donaldson and they just drive out and kill him. All you need to be is someone who has killed several people. I mention Tyrone specifically because while anyone would think twice they might disobey McGuinness and do it. Or it could even be This \/

McGuinness ' I don't want anyone to drive up to Glenties. Take the 2nd left after the town. Turn right just before you get to Doochary then cross the bridge and take the second right. Then get out and Kill Denis Donaldson
None of yis are till do that.

MM

muffler

Earthman wrote:

Muffler
Do not get personal in threads here.

Fair enough Earthman but it was only meant as a bit of light hearted humour

Sand

When you think about it, the killing of Donaldson doesnt really impact the DUPs willingness to deal with SFIRA - they were saying no beforehand, theyre saying no afterwards. Playing the Donaldson card (murdering him to derail talks) would have been better timed for effect just before or after an IMC report, or even just before the DUP were to enter the executive with SFIRA - something that would practically force the DUP to pull out until the mess was cleared up, if ever.

The evil securocrats/loyalists/dissident Republicans explanation doesnt make sense. The timing was all wrong, and the chance to snooker any progress using Donaldson is gone. 6 months from now Donaldson will be another McCartney - effectively forgotten, sacrificed for "the peace process". Of course, it could be theyre simply stupid, but that doesnt fit well with the calculation theyre being credited with in attempting to destroy the process.

Especially from dissident Republican p.o.v. Donaldson was worth more to them alive, as an embarrassement to Adams, undermining respect for his authority. Think about it, how could this British tout could fool Adams for decades, how many others are pulling the same trick? They could have a field day playing on the minds of Provos.

Its Provos, either operating with the assent of Adams and McGuinness or without it (plausible deniability or simple independant action by a local unit). The possibility of a veangence attack is strong, but the guys who did it wont be able to keep it secret from their comrades for too long, and SFIRA have already demonstrated they will protect and support murderers even if theyre not "official". Carte blanche if you will. The killers may be described as "dissidents" but what does that mean anymore? Certainly, no dissident republican is dissident enough for SFIRA to consider co-operating with criminal investigations.

The other possibility is that given the SFIRAs internal politics (in the light of the investigation of SFIRAs criminal empire especially), it may have been necessary for Donaldson to be murdered to appease hardliners - lets not kid ourselves that Adams/McGuiness havent assented to murder before, nor that they should have any particular reason to fear political repercussions. There will be a few weeks of tough words, but nothing will be allowed to stop "a deal".

A murder like this reassures the hardliners still sore about giving up some of the guns that all is still right with the world, and touts still get whats coming to them. Provos would have been leaping about doing high fives when they heard the news, with their only concern being tactical implications and the need to publicly say it was a bad thing, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Its a great morale booster for them.

joebhoy1916

anonymous_joe wrote:

Plenty of terrorists in Ireland. Could have been any of them.

While it would seem obvious that the IRA would be stupid to kill Donaldson, it would have been stupid of the IRA to cover up for whichever of their members killed McCartney... Not always the sharpest tools in the box our friends the 'Ra.

You either like them or hate them. But here is an example if im in the irish army and i stab a guy or knock a guy down while am i drunk does that mean that the lot of the army is at fault???

joebhoy1916

joebhoy1916 wrote:

You either like them or hate them. But here is an example if im in the irish army and i stab a guy or knock a guy down while am i drunk does that mean that the lot of the army is at fault???

Bad example I'm afraid.
It's akin to asking is it the same as I'm black and I've killed someone and all blacks do this.

A Better comparative example would be is it the same as I'm white,I'm in the Klu Klux Klan and I've just lynched a black man-do all in the Klu Klux Klan do this?

The Corinthian

joebhoy1916 wrote:

You either like them or hate them. But here is an example if im in the irish army and i stab a guy or knock a guy down while am i drunk does that mean that the lot of the army is at fault???

Yes it is, or more correctly it is responsible. In any military organisation there is a responsibility in the chain of command - officers are responsible for the actions of their men, and the organisation is, in turn, responsible as a whole. After all, no military organisation can train and arm men and then wash it’s hands of what those men do with that training and with those arms. Otherwise, by your logic, the British government should not be held to account for the actions of the Black and Tans.

Of course in any military organisation, soldiers get out of hand and that’s when the chain of command kicks in and disciplines those directly involved as well as those directly responsible for those directly involved.

If it does not then that military organisation becomes party to the crime.

Cork

I think the murder of Donalson was akin to the Provos shooting themselves in the foot.

Let's face it these people were never the smartest.

Ian Paisley has the Provos right were he wants them. He has so many stones that he can lob at them. From IMC Reports, NI Bank Raids etc.

Sand

The Sindos claiming Donaldson was murdered by a hitman hired by hardliners in SFIRA who wanted to send a message to Adams. They apparently believe Adams "wing" of the movement is riddled with informants and British collaborators. Many of Adams idealogical opponents in SFIRA came to a sticky end at the hands of MI5 & the SAS, whereas Adams was left to roam free. It would make sense from a British point of view to identify and eliminate the militant hardliners whilst protecting the "doves" in SFIRA. The unmasking of Donaldson and the rumours of other British spies in the Adams cabinet would only have fed the bitterness of those who suspected their comrades were shot to assist Adams' rise in the movement, leading to the acceptance of partition, and at least a partial surrender of arms/theology.

Certainly SFIRA internal politics cant have been all sweetness and light over the past few months. And with the brand of people who staff SFIRA, disagreements can lead to more than heated words.

Cork

Certainly SFIRA internal politics cant have been all sweetness and light over the past few months.

But If there was debate - it was not carried out in the media or reported in the media.

In democratic party politics - the exchange of views is the norm.

I believe the Provos are clueless and leaving the DUP holding all the cards.

But what was laughable last week was SF representatives blaming British Ajents. It is about time that SF began to take responsibility for the actions of their party membership.

TapouT

Sand wrote:

SFIRA .

Who are SFIRA?

I thinking your using anglo-saxon speak for the IRA or Sinn Fein?. If you wanna talk like a Brit why don't you move your sorry butt over there?.

The Corinthian

TapouT wrote:

If you wanna talk like a Brit why don't you move your sorry butt over there?.

I take it that the irony that you wrote that in English has escaped you.

rkeane

I received this in an email yesterday....a little off topic but enjoy

‘Steaknife’, one of British Intelligence’s top spies in the IRA was exposed and rendered useless to his former spymasters. However, their most valuable agent within the Republican Movement continues to drive the organisation in the direction of chaos and self destruction. Yes, ‘Breadknife’ continues to slice away at the very basis of Sinn Fein support with the same intensity as a demented Turkish chicken butcher shearing the heads of flu-infected fowl.

What has only just come to light is the transcript of a past meeting between Breadknife and his assiduous British handler intended to explore further possibilities to undermine the Sinn Fein organisation. It speaks for itself ……..

Handler: All looks positive at the moment. We have already convinced them that the way they could win the war was to give up their weapons, the way to end the British presence is to accept that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the way to achieve a United Ireland is not to look for one.
Breadknife: Ay. Good one all right.
Handler: Now we have to see if can push this particular form of lunacy a little further. What we really need now is to target Sinn Fein’s electoral support by driving a wedge between them and even their most enthusiastic followers. We need them to take on board some completely disastrous policies…… something akin to political suicide.
Breadknife: Ay. But it won’t be as easy as the United Ireland trick. What have you in mind ……..? A policy to execute every male child under two?
Handler: No, being serious. Could we get them to go for something less drastic ………….. something like unlimited immigration. You know, anyone and everyone, everywhere in the world can have unrestricted access into Ireland at anytime in the future. You know the line: “Ireland wants and welcomes your huddled masses.” Maybe you could try and push that one.
Breadknife: I thought you said “being serious.” They’d never go for something as stupid as that.
Handler: Okay. How about something in the economic area? Maybe they might propose a corporation tax of 17% if they got into government. That would go down a bomb.
Breadknife: Especially with the thousands that would lose their jobs. I mean, whatever about political suicide, they would hardly opt for political genocide and self-extinction.
Handler: So, supporting abortion, you would think, would be another non-runner.
Breadknife: Now really. A Sinn Fein policy jump from self–determination to self-termination. Let’s get real.


Little is known of the extent of Breadknife’s activities since that meeting. However, what we do know is that Sinn Fein now espouses policies calling for unlimited immigration into Ireland, a corporation tax of 17%, and just recently, abortion on demand. The party continues to believe that their best path to government is to follow popular bread-and-butter policies that appeal to the electorate. Breadknife, obviously, is pointing the way.

TapouT

The Corinthian wrote:

I take it that the irony that you wrote that in English has escaped you.

Actually until you pointed it out to me, your right. It did escape me. But it really cheese's me off when S.F. or the IRA are called SFIRA. The IRA are an illegal organisation here in the south and I don't vote for them. However S.F. aren't and we're all free to vote for them.

Its like calling the Irish army F.F. Oglaigh na hEireann.

muffler

TapouT wrote:

Its like calling the Irish army F.F. Oglaigh na hEireann.

Or Dads Army/Mams Army

anonymous_joe

joebhoy1916 wrote:

You either like them or hate them. But here is an example if im in the irish army and i stab a guy or knock a guy down while am i drunk does that mean that the lot of the army is at fault???

It's the army's fault if they lie to protect you. If an IRA member commits a crime as an individual, don't blame the 'RA, if the IRA cover up for him, I'd consider that an endorsment of the deeds.

joebhoy1916

But how do you know if they are covering it up.
Anyone could have done it the man shouldnt of stayed in Ireland and a couple of weeks ago the garda told him his life was in danger he wouldnt take protection

Sand

Who are SFIRA?

If youre in denial, thats your problem tbh.

The IRA are an illegal organisation here in the south and I don't vote for them. However S.F. aren't and we're all free to vote for them.

Again, denial. When you vote for Adams and Co youre voting for the IRA. Lie to yourself if it helps, but dont expect people to go along with that lie.

Its like calling the Irish army F.F. Oglaigh na hEireann.

Both wholly legitimate and seperate organisations. SFIRA are two sides of the same coin.

But how do you know if they are covering it up.

Common sense? They covered up for the McCartney killers, and still are. They refuse to allow co-operation with legitimate police investigations. Their "campaign workers" are found with fake Garda uniforms. Theyre not exactly Dudley Do-Right.

The Corinthian

TapouT wrote:

But it really cheese's me off when S.F. or the IRA are called SFIRA. The IRA are an illegal organisation here in the south and I don't vote for them. However S.F. aren't and we're all free to vote for them.

One would have to be in serious denial to pretend that Sinn Fein was not little more than the political mouthpiece of the PIRA. I say was simply because actions such as the Donaldson murder would indicate that the symbiotic relationship between the two is not as symbiotic as it used to be.

However SFIRA was a fair observation and until more than just a few indications are forthcoming, it still is.

Its like calling the Irish army F.F. Oglaigh na hEireann.

That’s ridiculous. There’s never been the same type of direct link between Fianna Fail and the Irish Defence Forces. If anything, historically, you might use the example of F.G. Oglaigh na hEireann as this was certainly the case at one stage.

anonymous_joe

joebhoy1916 wrote:

But how do you know if they are covering it up.
Anyone could have done it the man shouldnt of stayed in Ireland and a couple of weeks ago the garda told him his life was in danger he wouldnt take protection

My original comments about the 'Ra were regarding the murder of McCartney...

As regards the Donaldson case, I'll give them enough credit to assume they're not moronic enough to have done it. I'd surmise that whoever did do it, is a Republican who takes Donaldson's actions more seriously than peace...