US: 2X18 - "Dave" [**SPOILERS WITHIN**]

Fidelis

I gave it a 1/10 for the Hurley flashback. Awful, just awful. I was fuming at him for dumping the food too! I wasn't expecting 'Dave' to be as good as 'Lockdown', but not only was it boring, it addressed practically nothing from the previous episode.

Libby's facial expression as they walk away from the cliff was pretty good, as was the 'God' comment. Even still, I couldn't keep watching Lost if every episode was going to be 44 minutes of cringe and 1 minute of substance

stevejazzx

5

doh.ie wrote:

Ixoy's right about the average ratings on here. Normally I don't really bother to vote on the poll, but this was so awful, it deserved to get one - I give it a 3, redeemed only by three elements (which get a vote each):

* The newly mysterious Libby and her scene at the end in the hospital - I have this half-notion she may be working for Dharma, based purely on the basis that she might not actually like Hurley at all, and suspicion about why she was in Australia. I agree with Monomaniac that her appearance must be more than a regular crossover - but I also hope there's something clever to it. Having her be a traitor would be kinda cool. I also like the fact she was not a nurse, though the evidence strongly suggested she was.

* Henry Gale - once again, and in fewer scenes, he delivers the goods. He lies and lies and lies. And he's lying about not pushing the button, I'm sure of it. Question is why - is he testing Locke's faith, or does he/Dharma actually want the number-entering to cease? (Although that can't be the case because then he would have genuinely let the counter run.) But since he will lie to the end, I'm very sure he's not telling the truth about what he did in that room.

* Loved Sayid's interrogation and the production of the $ farewell note. Also loved, as many of us did, the "God" line about the island and the confirmation that Zeke is a pawn in a greater game. Mr Hanso or whoever "he" is - dying to see the answer to that mystery. Would have been better to have some map progress - Lost will become frustrating to the masses because of the loose ends which aren't picked up quickly enough (though at least unlike The X-Files it does return to them within a few episodes.)

Why it was crap (to me, anyway):
Although there was no progress on it in this episode, the map mystery remains. It's significance and my keen-ness to find out more about it was pretty much the driving force for tuning it - that an finding out who 'Henry' was. Yet nothing. This wouldn't be much of a deal if the show had gone on to feature progress of any kind, but there was so little, it felt like a waste of time.

The characters' continuing inability to talk to each other about ANYTHING any one of them discovers is very frustrating - this map is going to be the plot point that drives season three and where the show goes from here. But the show is held back from developing (to stretch it out) to the point where the characters are exasperating to watch! Locke may distrust everyone, to be fair, but I would hope he reveals what he knows relatively soon. I was almost shocked the Losties at large found out about the food drop and Jack hadn't already snuck it into the hatch pantry.

Flashback was woeful. They need to learn one thing very fast. Hurley-centric episodes DO NOT need to be "the funny ones" (the way DS9 felt the need to do attempt humour in Ferengi episodes several times a season - they were usually the worst.) If anything, trying to make Hurley episodes quirky and jokey take away from his character. Nothing wrong with the attack on Sawyer or his talks with Libby, but the Dave stuff in the jungle was slow and painful to watch.

It was obvious from the basketball game he was imaginary (possibly even from the interview with Bruce Davison at the start - why wasn't he billed as a "Special Guest Star" based on all the movies he's been in, I wonder...). So ultimately I didn't buy the Dave thing at all. The ultimate "It's all in your head" revelation was vexing too - and old hat. Buffy did it and so did DS9. We've seen this kind of concept before, and the only reason I can see for its inclusion is part in-joke, part theory ruling-out on the part of the producers. (They've done this before with Hurley's "..or any when" line and with other theories.)

This is now officially (for me) the worst flashback of the series so far. Close seconds to the flashback of Jin/Sun in 2x05 and Shannon/Boone in 1x13, and Michael/Walt in 2x02.



I hope so. Truth is, a 'taster' followed by a good one isn't nearly good enough. If they want to ensure audience loyalty and not drop large chunks as the seasons go by, EVERY episode will have to be a good one. This doesn't always mean big island revelations or lots of action (2x13 was a great episode on backstory alone; same with 1x04 and several others.)

Huge minus points, as many of you agree, for the waste of food at the start. And this BEFORE they found out about the resupply drop. Gah! Very, very annoying. This from a group that normally complain about having to eat fish and fruit all the time. And is it just me or do Dharma give inordinately large containers to things like peanut butter, ranch dressing and the like. Condiments. No reason why. Yet the fish crackers box is not even 500g cereal box size. You'd have way more dressing than you have supplies to dip in it! Insane. And very odd.

So, no, didn't like this at all. The Hurley scenes lost my interest, there were too many of those, mad at waste of food (no matter how much was newly arrived), inserted 'random' other character scenes (I think it's a church too) and the scenes we did really anticipate - great but way too few in number.

And so, 3/10. Half thinking now I should have gone lower...! (For the record, compare this one, 2x18, with 1x18 "Numbers" and the incredibly lacklusture ep Hurley's got from one season to another...)

have to agree, the first episode for me which really fell below the par the show has thus far....lets hope its a one off!:p

doh.ie

2

stevejazzx wrote:

have to agree, the first episode for me which really fell below the par the show has thus far....lets hope its a one off!:p

I wish it was! I think it's had a few duds close to "Dave" in the past. OK, so no series is going to have 100% pass rate on excellent plotting (although Carnivale came close), so Lost's worst ones are about average, but I would have thought lessons on the weakers ones would have been learned by the writers; unfortunately, it appears not.

From the start of the show, the episodes which for me stand out as being weakest are:

Overall:
1x12 ("Hearts and Minds")
2x02 ("Adrift")
2x04 ("Everybody Hates Hugo")
2x05 ("..And Found")
2x18 ("Dave")

All of those would get a 5 at best, and many would be heading down towards a 3 too.

Flashbacks from:
2x09 ("What Kate Did")
2x11 ("The Hunting Party"
2x12 ("Fire + Water")
2x17 ("Lockdown")

were also weak as hell; the flashback concept has run out of steam particularly badly this season. They seem to want to keep rehashing the same old information over and over. If they want to keep the flashback idea, we'll need NEW information, new events and new plotting within them, not an ongoing reexamination of the same old stuff (Jack's flashbacks in particular.)

doh.ie

2

tvnutz wrote:

3/10? Please! Anything that would be 3/10 would be so bad that I wouldn't even watch it all,Id turn it off...even if it was Lost.

Well, I tend not to know how good/bad it is until I reach the end. As I said, if it wasn't for the slight twist in the Libby revelation, I might have given it a 2!

For me, this one was simply atrocious. Nowhere near the usual Lost standard. If you were showing this one to someone, you could certainly play the Henry scenes and the last two minutes (the kiss, to establish the relationship) and the rest could all be skipped completely. If a series has an episode that applies to, chances are it would have been better off not produced at all.

As for skipping it, an ardent fan would need to see every episode - in fact, I'm like that for any series I follow, no matter what style it's in... would never miss a single episode, regardless of how weak it appeared to be from the outset. I accept there's often cheaper "bottle shows" which can be weaker but if written well enough, the show should still have something to offer. "Dave" wound up with hardly anything for me, bar the three items in my original post. Speaking of bottle shows - those produced on standing sets to save on costs; ironically "Lockdown" was one of those for the most part - can often be the best ones.

Definitely still a 3 though. If I *never* see Dave's face in the show again, it'll be too soon. (I hope he doesn't turn out to be some kind of Dharma-implanted
vision, cos that'd mean the character will return and it'd be best for the show if he was never seen again.)

stevejazzx

5

Hyzepher wrote:

Please dont be condecending - of course I understand that Dharma build the structures and had experiments. What I am saying is that Dharma have obviously been overrun or hampered in some way - the 'incident' that they referred to on the film may have been the first occurance of whatever it is that has influence over them. After all it looks like they had to put in security measures around the island to protect themselves.

I just think that Dharma came to this island and suffered 'unexplainable' incidents themselves to the extent that they had to abandon most of the structures and maybe the original staff on the island.

Hyzepher

didnt mean to be condescending just reread your original post and I think I see what you were saying now... and actually you have a very good point about them(dharma) possibly underestimating the island, but i think the history of island has been fairly extensively researched by dhrma so i believe their problems are more likley internal, like rousseaus daughter who has apparently defected....but we shall see

robinph

6

Why is Hurley so damn funny whenever he falls over?

Franky Boy

9

Don't know if this has already been posted, but did anyone notice the washing machine at the side of the camera when locke is on the bed and Jack is tending to him.IT just seemed weird that they made a point of putting it in!

Basq

6

Anyone else notice we got no "Previously On Lost.." recap at the start of this episode?

And along with that, it seemed to be slightly longer than a normal episode clocking in at over 45 minutes. Typical episode clocks in at about 42 - 43 minutes.

No-one else notice?.... just me then!

Splendid

5

basquille wrote:

Anyone else notice we got no "Previously On Lost.." recap at the start of this episode?

And along with that, it seemed to be slightly longer than a normal episode clocking in at over 45 minutes. Typical episode clocks in at about 42 - 43 minutes.

No-one else notice?.... just me then!

Yeah, i wondered that for a while,

Stench Blossoms

4

basquille wrote:

Anyone else notice we got no "Previously On Lost.." recap at the start of this episode?

And along with that, it seemed to be slightly longer than a normal episode clocking in at over 45 minutes. Typical episode clocks in at about 42 - 43 minutes.

No-one else notice?.... just me then!

Yeh i noticed that.

I thought it was an ok episode. Nothing could top last weeks though.

I really didn't like the throwing away food part. I mean like come on, they are stranded on an island, savour all the food you've got for god sake.

The scenes with "Henry" we're great. Just wish there had been more of them.

The fight with Hurley and Sawyer was funny.

I spotted the whole Dave bein imaginary straight away.

All in all i'll give it a 5.

energy69

4

Okay. Probably a really bad idea reading this book, although has anyone noticed the continual use of the number 23 thorughout the series. For anyone that has read the book the Illuminatus Trilogy, you will probably have noticed this already .

Also there has being interesting references to eyes and the sort. The others is reflective of certain similarities of this book.

Anyhow it gets a mere 5/10 by making us go through the process of answering the question that many had on their minds, of it all being in someones head. Pathetic. What type of two hand milking are they taking us for?

Nevertheless the fear concept is used continually and Hurley is not the first to experience Hallucinations if you remember. There has being quite a few to say the least. Actually an enormous quantity of peoples fears are projected and hence created.

More interesting is something that hit me 4 or 5 months ago was how it reminded me of Paradise Lost by John Milton. Any of you remember from school how long and bizarre it is. Is also has numerous references that are similar throughout.

Certain scholars have suggested that there is similarity between Psalm 23 and an ancient hymn sung to Osiris, a saviour-figure in ancient Egyptian mythology. This hymn appealed to Osiris as the Good Shepherd, to lead those who have died to the "green pastures" and the "still waters" of the nefer-nefer land, Osiris was to restore the soul to the body and give protection in the "valley of the shadow of death". In connection with a prayer the Osiris hymn began with "O'Amen, O'Amen, who are in heaven" and ended with "Amen"


Finally for any of you that want to see a very educated viewpoint on the whole series you need to check out this link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_(TV_series)

sephirosis

i dont believe that Libby is with Dharma. I also think Dave was purely imaginary, not some form of Dharma plant on the island and I dont think Hurleys mind was in any way altered by Dharma or has implanted memories. I don't think that Dharma is in control of everything thats happening ON the island, but rather just set up the scenario, which means they were influencing events BEFORE the crash. However I think it's a realistic level of control, ie setting up chance encounters and forcing people into various situations, not brainwashing or gene altering or anything like that. Thus i think that the mental hospital was like a recruiting ground for dharma for specimens for whatever they are trying to do on the island. If anyone was a Dharma plant it was Leonard, as Dharma wanted someone to have a deep and ingrained connection to the numbers, and chose Hurley. As to why Libby was chosen I can't think of any idea except she was in the right place at the right time (or wrong if you will). This recon and observation of possible specimens would also explain why the black smoke security system had shots of Eko in its memory (I don't believe it was reading his mind or anything) which we saw in their encounter. Also, i dont believe there is "good" dharma and "bad" dharma. Of course, i could be completely wrong on all of this, but mneh.

Nick_oliveri

Didnt "Henry" yap on about him being a good person when sayid nearly popped a cap in him?

This ties in with the "other 48 days" episode with the list of Good people/ who to kidnap.

Im going to have to watch this episode again.

If Hurleys "dave" was in fact Dharma controlled, what other motive would they have only to involve Hurley with those numbers?

1

2 comments

Worst episode of Lost ever.
My best description of it would be that it was a complete and total pile of crap.

As for the final scene-the directors/authors are now taking the píss in my opinion and making it up as they go along.

I've enjoyed a lot of this series, but a few more episodes like that one and I'm out of here.

doh.ie

1

doh.ie wrote:

* The newly mysterious Libby and her scene at the end in the hospital - I have this half-notion she may be working for Dharma, based purely on the basis that she might not actually like Hurley at all, and suspicion about why she was in Australia.

My problem with that is the effort to maintain some stretch of believeability in the story line went out the window.
I know , I know Drama is Drama and made up and it's all an act etc.
BUT when I see two coincidences in the same series ie someone that Jack has met back in America just happens to be the person in the hatch when they find it first and now someone that was in a mental hospital with Hurley just also happens to be on the island.

It spells of either the writers have actually lost the plot or they just dont care.

I suppose listening to the crap that the directors put into the podcast that I heard a few weeks ago sowed a little seed in my head that these guys arent putting the effort in.

Shake this sack now and you have a storyline dragged out over several more(hopefully more interesting than this one) episodes where the Henry Gale thing is examined a bit more and thats it.

They can thicken the plot all they like with Garbage like that a cell mate of Hurleys either by unbelieveable coincidence was on the same flight as him or works for Dharma all they like but it wont wash with me.

Teachers comment: Can do better,should do better D minus.

jacopo_belbo

I loved the episode!

I think the idea that it's all Hurley's dream does not fit in with the pattern that the series has been taking...

Remember when Sawyer was convinced the boar was after him? Or when Boone was (intentionally, ok) also in a complete trance?

All the main characters are facing their own internal demons in the island... from that perspective I think the episode was very well done.

Also, I probably missed this if it was mentioned on the show before, but is just me or is it Locke's father who caused his parents to kill himself? After all, he's a conman... I don't think we ever found out the real identity of the guy who conned Sawyer's family...?

godtabh

6

I thought it was a good one.

Just a few points thought.

Didn’t Libby say she was a shrink? I thought she was there to help Hurley from the moment I heard that but then at the end when she was in the hospital I just don’t know what to think.

Also I think the reason Henry Gale let him self the captured is to split Locke and Jack. He is playing them off each other. In the past Locke was the man in charge but look at the way AL talked to him. His authority is being undermined. He'll bounce back soon but not before his pledge to help Henry comes back to haunt him.

Also I think Zeeks gang is on the good side. I reckon there is to sets of others and when Jack goes for a trade they won’t know who Henry Gale is and an alliance will be formed and Henry Gale with get what he deserves.

jacopo_belbo

I think it's more than coincidence that fake Henry Gale's acting style is so similar to Kevin Spaceys.

Kaiser Sose anyone?

sprinkles

5

Didn't zeeks gang want to kill claire.....doubt they are in anyway on the good side. There could very well be 2 gangs on the island though...that would be interesting

godtabh

6

sprinkles wrote:

Didn't zeeks gang want to kill claire.....doubt they are in anyway on the good side. There could very well be 2 gangs on the island though...that would be interesting

Who says Zeeks gang is the same as Ethans? I know they found the makeup and the hair but that doesnt prove anything (unless I've missed something).

I still think that Ethan is part of the others that kidnapped the children while Zeeks gang is another set of others that will get on losties side

steviec

kearnsr wrote:

Who says Zeeks gang is the same as Ethans? I know they found the makeup and the hair but that doesnt prove anything (unless I've missed something).

I still think that Ethan is part of the others that kidnapped the children while Zeeks gang is another set of others that will get on losties side

Ethan is talking to Zeke(minus the fake beard) in one of Clares flashbacks of the facility.

Although I suppose at a stretch you could say it was just someone with a very very similar voice because he obviously looks different without all the gear on.

stevejazzx

5

sephirosis wrote:

i dont believe that Libby is with Dharma. I also think Dave was purely imaginary, not some form of Dharma plant on the island and I dont think Hurleys mind was in any way altered by Dharma or has implanted memories. I don't think that Dharma is in control of everything thats happening ON the island, but rather just set up the scenario, which means they were influencing events BEFORE the crash. However I think it's a realistic level of control, ie setting up chance encounters and forcing people into various situations, not brainwashing or gene altering or anything like that. Thus i think that the mental hospital was like a recruiting ground for dharma for specimens for whatever they are trying to do on the island. If anyone was a Dharma plant it was Leonard, as Dharma wanted someone to have a deep and ingrained connection to the numbers, and chose Hurley. As to why Libby was chosen I can't think of any idea except she was in the right place at the right time (or wrong if you will). This recon and observation of possible specimens would also explain why the black smoke security system had shots of Eko in its memory (I don't believe it was reading his mind or anything) which we saw in their encounter. Also, i dont believe there is "good" dharma and "bad" dharma. Of course, i could be completely wrong on all of this, but mneh.

yeah I 've always thought that the mental hospital was some kinda recruiting ground for dharma guinea pigs, ever since we found out that lockes mother had been there aswell as hurley, lockes mother of course harping on about her immaculate conception ties her in to Sun and Claire so clearly there was some interference with her by the di, anyway back to dave and libby, dave was originally a manifestation by hurley, thats clear unless hurleys doctor 'doctored' the photograph, i think the block smoke thing has the abiltiy to read thoughts (like we see when it meets eko) and so has 'uploaded this image of dave to the island, clearly dharma wanted hurley to kill himself because the numbers are uncontrollable in some way, leonard said they won't stop unless you get far away, perhaps one side of dharma want to use the numbers(science) and one side superstitously wants to stop the numbers(faith) the 2 rivalling fractions might be the brothers degroot and hanso...libby seems so calm just like ehtan talking to claire in 'maternity leave' that I reckoned she s keeping hurley on track from the science part of the di...it's interesting!

stevejazzx

5

Earthman wrote:

My problem with that is the effort to maintain some stretch of believeability in the story line went out the window.
I know , I know Drama is Drama and made up and it's all an act etc.
BUT when I see two coincidences in the same series ie someone that Jack has met back in America just happens to be the person in the hatch when they find it first and now someone that was in a mental hospital with Hurley just also happens to be on the island.

It spells of either the writers have actually lost the plot or they just dont care.these guys arent putting the effort in.

desmond was guiding jack in the backstroy, thats all, its no coincidence he was dhrama employed to help shape jacks history before the isand, like that incredibly hot woman who jack kisses after the bothced operation, a set up to elimate jacks real world ties i.e his wife....

Earthman wrote:

They can thicken the plot all they like with Garbage like that a cell mate of Hurleys either by unbelieveable coincidence was on the same flight as him or works for Dharma all they like but it wont wash with me.

the hospital is possibly dharma controlled and this is why we have three who've attended there that we know about.

Goodshape

7

energy69 wrote:

Okay. Probably a really bad idea reading this book, although has anyone noticed the continual use of the number 23 thorughout the series. For anyone that has read the book the Illuminatus Trilogy, you will probably have noticed this already.

Coincedence plays a big part in the Illuminatus Trillogy too iirc (and, along with 23, in other Robert Anton Wilson books. You should have a read of Cosmic Trigger for a start).

Although the 23 enigma didn't start with Wilson. Most of what makes up the Illuminatus trillogy is there because it exists as conspirisy theory or unexplained event in the 'real world'. I've no doubt the lost writers are playing with this.

23 Enigma on Answers.com


Anyway, I liked this episode. I think I watch Lost more for the characters and singular events than the 'big mystery' (as interesting a that is), so this episode had enough to keep me happy.

Plus I, for one, didn't get the 'dave-isn't-real' thing until it was spelled out to me. Just wasn't on the look out for anything like that and found it very interesting to finally find out why Hugo was in the institute.

Libby turning up at the end was very strange... no idea what's going on there.

Tar.Aldarion

Plus I, for one, didn't get the 'dave-isn't-real' thing until it was spelled out to me.

Come on now, they couldn't have made it more obvious.


Great episode IMO. Not as good as 17 though!

Goodshape

7

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Come on now, they couldn't have made it more obvious.

Yea. Feel dumb now but really, didn't get it

(so that's why he never touched the basketball :eek: !)

Tar.Aldarion

*pats goodshape on head*

Take your meds!

s10

6

i noticed when he rang helen she said it had been 4 years , ekk 4 years of more flashbacks
Id never give an epp lower than 4/10 thats a eastenders/neighbours type of show.

One thing that did annoy me was after throwing away all the food (hey they are both not mentally right in the head, so thats ok by me) was that sun /jin ran by the food and didnt stop at the mountain of newly destroyed grub to ask what the hell was going on. And that path must be well used the food was not that well hidden someone should have found it.struck me as a bit dumb.

stevejazzx

1

stevejazzx wrote:

desmond was guiding jack in the backstroy, thats all, its no coincidence he was dhrama employed to help shape jacks history before the isand, like that incredibly hot woman who jack kisses after the bothced operation, a set up to elimate jacks real world ties i.e his wife....

I dont follow...You've not explained how on earth we're supposed to believe that on a random island a plane has crashed on,there just happens to have a friend of a crash survivor there.
Worse iirc Desmond happened to also accidently beach on this island.
You've not

the hospital is possibly dharma controlled and this is why we have three who've attended there that we know about.

Next we'll hear that a Dharma employee hijacked the plane and crashed it there on purpose.
It's the only other logical but silly explanation for the things I've pointed out.

The reason I favour though is the writers are being careless and are making it up as they go along.
Still its an interesting concoction so far,if not very good at times but more of ep 18 and I'll go back to watching more lost in space...

doh.ie

2

Earthman wrote:

BUT when I see two coincidences in the same series ie someone that Jack has met back in America just happens to be the person in the hatch when they find it first and now someone that was in a mental hospital with Hurley just also happens to be on the island.

Teachers comment: Can do better,should do better D minus.

The Desmond appearance was so coincidental (way more so than the Libby one) that there had better be a damn good explanation for his turning up. Admittedly, on both counts it's most likely Dharma Initiative manipulation. The Libby mental hospital appearance is slightly more plausible if it turns out she was following Hurley or is a Dharma pawn in some way. The level of coincidences - and like the numbers the sheer quantity of them lately actually weakens the idea - does have to have some concrete explanation by the end of the series.

For 2x18, I agree with your grade, or even lower. S10 - a show doesn't have to be a soap to go below 4/10. If it's bad enough, whatever type of show it is, it can deserve any grade. I mean, you could say The Simpsons is a great show and never deserves anything under 3/10 - yet those clip shows which rehash bits from other episodes couldn't deserve anything but a 1 or 2! Lost is just like any series - the potential to be great, but not without some poor offerings either.

Jacopo wrote:

Also, I probably missed this if it was mentioned on the show before, but is just me or is it Locke's father who caused his parents to kill himself? After all, he's a conman... I don't think we ever found out the real identity of the guy who conned Sawyer's family...?

We haven't... yet. But I'll eat my hat if this doesn't turn out to be the case. The only thing that could cause a turn-around on this now is the writers being pissed off that fans have made the link and so decide to go another way with it. But given their love of coincidences, this has to be another.

Earthman wrote:

The reason I favour though is the writers are being careless and are making it up as they go along.

There is definitely a solid reason behind the island/who built the hatches/what Dharma is/what the monster is/what caused the crash and maybe what the numbers mean, if anything at all - but beyond those key mythology plots, the rest of the show is being made up as they go along. They will choose a character to do a flashback on, discuss what we'll learn about this person next, see if there's anything to add flesh to from a previous flashback (unfortunately, they usually decide there is when the old material has been fully expanded upon). Even the on-island events are being discussed only a handful of episodes in advance. Very few writers plan out a show years in advance - the TV world is fickle and the series could be forced to end tomorrow or next season if the viewers lost interest.

stevejazzx

5

Earthman wrote:

I dont follow...You've not explained how on earth we're supposed to believe that on a random island a plane has crashed on,there just happens to have a friend of a crash survivor there.

the plane didn't crash there randomly, John Locke says he believes they were brought to the Island for a reason, this is probably the most likley scenario considering the events which have happened since, we know that dharma controls the island (their name is branded on a shark) and we know(almost for certain) that dharma was involved in their lives before the island
so the only explanation is that the losties were manipulated into being on that 815 flight, its far fatched but as the show continues we see more evidence of this, desmond is possibly a dharma operative and his story of an around the world boat race is probably a lie like henry gales balloon, Locke discovered the hatch and desmonds cover was blown so he conncocted the stroy, or desmond doesn't work for dharma but was also brought to Island for whatever reason by dharma, so either way the coincidence is explainable albeit a little out there.....

Earthman wrote:

Next we'll hear that a Dharma employee hijacked the plane and crashed it there on purpose.
It's the only other logical but silly explanation for the things I've pointed out.

there may well have been a di co pilot on the plane, many people who follow this show a lot more closely than I suspect direct inference of the plane by dharma

Earthman wrote:

The reason I favour though is the writers are being careless and are making it up as they go along.

Impossible, they have apparently huge wall charts in their writing studio covered with the charaters and their connections. It's a huge conspiratorial plot which they have mapped out from day one, they are being bold with the connections because they know exactly where they are going but the timeframe of episode lenght is causing serious problems to the flow of the explanation,

stevejazzx

5

doh.ie got in before me, didn't see that, hope it doesn't look like were bashing you earthman

doh.ie

2

stevejazzx wrote:

Impossible, they have apparently huge wall charts in their writing studio covered with the charaters and their connections. It's a huge conspiratorial plot which they have mapped out from day one, they are being bold with the connections because they know exactly where they are going but the timeframe of episode lenght is causing serious problems to the flow of the explanation,

Agree with you comments on Dharma's involvement, but I'm not convinced they have all the characters and connections planned out thoroughly. The writers have ideas they want to try out and change about - some of this planning is still a work in progress and subject to tweaking and coming up with new plans and theories that replace older concepts.

I don't think the big plot was even worked out as Abrams was writing the pilot (see this article on Lloyd Braun: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/14/wlost14.xml - the writers just needed to get the pilot made; they had no clue how it'd work beyond episode one, other than it was a mysterious island which had a French chick on it somewhere!)

If length is causing probelms to the flow of explanations, I can't for the life of me understand why they're wasting time with Hurley and Dave when they could be in the hatch with Henry!

By the way, fans might like to have a look at G4's Attack of the Show which features a Lost review - http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/videos/index.html - the one on "Dave" reckons the photo taken by the doctor doesn't even match the original! Not a conspiracy in there, though, just bad continuity!

stevejazzx

5

doh.ie wrote:

Agree with you comments on Dharma's involvement, but I'm not convinced they have all the characters and connections planned out thoroughly. The writers have ideas they want to try out and change about - some of this planning is still a work in progress and subject to tweaking and coming up with new plans and theories that replace older concepts.

I don't think the big plot was even worked out as Abrams was writing the pilot (see this article on Lloyd Braun: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/14/wlost14.xml - the writers just needed to get the pilot made; they had no clue how it'd work beyond episode one, other than it was a mysterious island which had a French chick on it somewhere!)

If length is causing probelms to the flow of explanations, I can't for the life of me understand why they're wasting time with Hurley and Dave when they could be in the hatch with Henry!

By the way, fans might like to have a look at G4's Attack of the Show which features a Lost review - http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/videos/index.html - the one on "Dave" reckons the photo taken by the doctor doesn't even match the original! Not a conspiracy in there, though, just bad continuity!

some bloke on the fuselage posted a transcript of an jjabrams interview october last where he ays although he's still changing bits and piecies as he goes, the overall plot is there...but I agree with you 100% on the Dave ep, I was so puzzled, I mean after Lockdown that they would go and do that, it's seems they're intent on calming down the momentum after a partiuculary good episode produce the more cerebral epsidoes which I havn't minded too much so far but dave(I've just watched it again there yesterday) is poor..it really was waste of time, as the events in that episode could of been done in half the time....

DeadParrot

[wild speculation] Havent checked this, will need to do it at home but isnt Daves eyes fairly jet black?[/wild speculation]

doh.ie

2

DeadParrot wrote:

[wild speculation] Havent checked this, will need to do it at home but isnt Daves eyes fairly jet black?[/wild speculation]

Well, he does appear to have very, very, very, very, (presumably) brown eyes in real-life:
http://www.variety.com/graphics/events2004/Evan-Handler.jpg

so I don't think Dharma were manipulating the projection/mind implanting to make him appear more evil (and awful) than he already was!

By the way, since Hurley hasn't been on meds for some time, and Dave hasn't shown up until now, and since it's unlikely he'll be showing up in the near future, doesn't this suggest Dave has to be a Dharma projected/implanted vision? Or maybe such neuroses can just randomly appear and disappear. (Maybe Dave was caused by stress like, oh, having too MUCH food on an island you're lost on...)

Talisman

Slightly off topic from your Dave discussion but still related to the episode...

I watched the episode again last night and it struck me that the prisoner is Verbal Kint (Kevin Spacey's character in The Usual Suspects). The accent used and the stories spun are too similar to be a coincidence for me.

Splendid

5

It could be nothing, but according to IMDB, the first episode Libby appears in is "Everybody hates hugo"

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0914475/filmoseries#tt0411008

IMDB is pretty good, even for uncredited appearances, isn't pretty strange that she hasn't appeared in any of the flashbacks to the plane?

Peace

4

Splendid wrote:

It could be nothing, but according to IMDB, the first episode Libby appears in is "Everybody hates hugo"

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0914475/filmoseries#tt0411008

IMDB is pretty good, even for uncredited appearances, isn't pretty strange that she hasn't appeared in any of the flashbacks to the plane?

If someone goes back to "The Other 4x days"... can someone see where libby is first spotted... in the water, on the beach etc?

doh.ie

1

doh.ie wrote:

The Desmond appearance was so coincidental (way more so than the Libby one) that there had better be a damn good explanation for his turning up.

I thought that too and put it to the back of my mind untill the libby scene when I smelt the rat that I posted.

Admittedly, on both counts it's most likely Dharma Initiative manipulation. The Libby mental hospital appearance is slightly more plausible if it turns out she was following Hurley or is a Dharma pawn in some way. The level of coincidences - and like the numbers the sheer quantity of them lately actually weakens the idea - does have to have some concrete explanation by the end of the series.

Frankly I'll be disappointed if it does actually turn out that Dharma crashed the plane...
While I'm on the subject,plane crashes dont normally have as good a survival rate as this one

There is definitely a solid reason behind the island/who built the hatches/what Dharma is/what the monster is/what caused the crash and maybe what the numbers mean, if anything at all - but beyond those key mythology plots, the rest of the show is being made up as they go along. They will choose a character to do a flashback on, discuss what we'll learn about this person next, see if there's anything to add flesh to from a previous flashback (unfortunately, they usually decide there is when the old material has been fully expanded upon). Even the on-island events are being discussed only a handful of episodes in advance.

I'm with you there,it wreaks of being made up as they go along and in fact the two directors in that podcast I heard admitted that.

Very few writers plan out a show years in advance - the TV world is fickle and the series could be forced to end tomorrow or next season if the viewers lost interest.

Thats the one thing they are getting right[up untill this episode I think], there is an adequate level of intrigue in most episodes.It just sadly seems to me, that in this episode, they took the proverbial with it.

stevejazzx wrote:

the plane didn't crash there randomly, John Locke says he believes they were brought to the Island for a reason, this is probably the most likley scenario considering the events which have happened since, we know that dharma controls the island (their name is branded on a shark) and we know(almost for certain) that dharma was involved in their lives before the island

How do you know this? Libby? Desmond? or something I've missed?I wouldnt conclude that Dharma was involved in their lives at all without going on this last episode just out of those two unless I subscribed to the view that Dharma crash landed the plane which could be the case but silly.Either way it would be speculative.

so the only explanation is that the losties were manipulated into being on that 815 flight, its far fatched but as the show continues we see more evidence of this, desmond is possibly a dharma operative and his story of an around the world boat race is probably a lie like henry gales balloon, Locke discovered the hatch and desmonds cover was blown so he conncocted the stroy, or desmond doesn't work for dharma but was also brought to Island for whatever reason by dharma, so either way the coincidence is explainable albeit a little out there.....

Jaysus , Given that we know nothing of what the directors are thinking, they're either doing a very bad job with the story or a very good one in that they have fans of the show coming up with far fetched notions.
All part of the more - ish nature of the series I suppose,but those directors/writers would want to be carefull as theres a limit to it with what I consider a michael taking episode like 2:18.

Impossible, they have apparently huge wall charts in their writing studio covered with the charaters and their connections. It's a huge conspiratorial plot which they have mapped out from day one, they are being bold with the connections because they know exactly where they are going but the timeframe of episode lenght is causing serious problems to the flow of the explanation,

Actually I wouldnt be surprised if they have teams of plot suggesters reading threads like this one and reporting back to the group meeting with possible solutions to various slip ups.

FX Meister

Maybe the reason that Libby isn't turned off by Hugo and wants to help him is because she has been through a similar experience to him so understands what he is going through. She seemed pretty doped up in the hospital so maybe she doesn't reaslise that Hugo was there too?

PullMyFinger!

When Hurley first spoke of the accident to his doctor, he said something like "If I wasn't fat, he wouldn't have died." Then later it was said that 2 people died. To me, that means that one of the people was more significant to him personally. Maybe one of the people who died was significant to Libby and she's stalking him?

Or the obvious - she's DHARMA

The destroying of the food dragged my overall thoughts for this episode down hugely, especially when Jin (?) and others then run past all this food without a single comment

sprinkles

5

Earthman wrote:

Actually I wouldnt be surprised if they have teams of plot suggesters reading threads like this one and reporting back to the group meeting with possible solutions to various slip ups.

A Kate & AL shower scene would really wrap things up nicely

doh.ie

2

sprinkles wrote:

A Kate & AL shower scene would really wrap things up nicely

Yes, this is a vital turning point; they need to go to the shower to avoid being overheard discussing a plan to take over the hatch. They're possibly seen by Henry, but he lies so much it's hard to tell. The black smoke monster is seen nearby too, but vanishes just as the water turns off.

Ciaran500

7

PullMyFinger! wrote:

When Hurley first spoke of the accident to his doctor, he said something like "If I wasn't fat, he wouldn't have died." Then later it was said that 2 people died. To me, that means that one of the people was more significant to him personally. Maybe one of the people who died was significant to Libby and she's stalking him?

He said "they wouldn't of died" the first time. About 26min in.

FrankGrimes

poor episode. Very very little happened in terms of actual plot progression and the whole 'its all in your head' think reaked of that entire of Dallas that turned out to be a dream, and Dallas aint somethin ya wanna be reakin of.

Only interesting bit was Libby being in the hospital, which ties in with her strange facial expression as they walked away after their kiss - something not quite right with her.

For me the backstory gimmick is now very dated and is getting on my nerves - it should be used to aid plot progression by providing context and background, but for most of this series it seems the actual happenings on the island are playing second fiddle to the backstories. It really seems like all the cast want their piece of the action so the writers are giving them each a story.

I just don't accept that a series with a storyline this intriguing has to drip feed plot progression to its viewers. I'm just about sticking with it at the moment but have some resentment about it due to the lack of flow in the storyline.

Lost is very good overall but with the foundations of the story it has laid it should be amazing but I think they are very misguided in how they are treating their audience - everyone has a point at which they will lose interest. The fanatics here won't lose interest but why should they be pushing viewers away with delays as opposed to drawing them further in with more frequent revelations?

By the way, any insight on the siginifcance of the text 'Wiltmore Labs' on fake Henry's baloon? We've seen Wiltmore pop up a few times right?

doh.ie

2

Interesting comments - agree on all of them, in particular the flashback ones. I still think the flashback format has merit, but only if the information we get EVERY WEEK is new, interesting and very much furthers the character's development and our understanding of them.

In Hurley's case, it did neither of those and as awful as his flashback was, if the on-island events were interesting, it might have balanced the episode up. As it stands, both aspects were dire and it dragged the episode down.

I was thinking earlier this week that if Dave had been presented spookily, as Jack's father and Walt have when they appeared via hallucinations/Dharma implanted visions/whatever, then maybe there would have been a stronger level of dis-ease for the viewer. Making it all so 'comedic' weakened the Dave appearance on the island - all of those could have much more impact.

FrankGrimes wrote:

By the way, any insight on the siginifcance of the text 'Wiltmore Labs' on fake Henry's baloon? We've seen Wiltmore pop up a few times right?

Widmore Labs were (supposedly) supposed to be visible on a billboard/building as Charlie left the set the 'You All Everybody' nappies ad was being filmed in. It was also on the pregnancy test which Sawyer gave to Sun. Too much to be a coincidence, probably, unless the producers now just throw in red herrings for people to get worked up over. I didn't realise it was on the balloon - will have to go back and check that... Well spotted.

chamlis

First of all I was thinking that maybe Libby and Dave are working together. She's the only person ever to be in a position to see if Dave is real or not as everyone else is distracted by food drop etc. or there's no one else around. Hurly asked her if she saw him holding a slipper but he was hiding it under is leg (and she could've just lied). Same with the doc in the hospital, like, real dave spliced with imaginary dave. And Libby does have psychologist techniques so could be using hypnosis? She's obviously got an agenda. This would kind of explain dave jumping off the cliff (he wouldn't if he were real) but still being able to throw things/slap hurly. And she does magically appear right when Hurly's about to jump. She could've been orchestrating the whole thing.
I'm confusing myself now, but someone can make sense of this surely :eek:

monomaniac

5

If you re-watch the scene where Hurley is sitting on the beach with the slipper he is holding it in front of him when Libby initially approaches. After they start talking he takes the slipper and hides it behind his back.

She clearly would have seen it (watch this scene again) leading me to the conclusion that either Libby is lying or Hurley imagined it - no middle ground.

Also, in relation to Dave having physical contact with Hurley whilst on the island - don't forget that when Dave woke Hurley up to escape from the institute he slapped him across the face a number of times.

Has anyone else seen Widmore on Henry Gale's balloon? This is the first I have heard of this.

doh.ie

2

monomaniac wrote:

Has anyone else seen Widmore on Henry Gale's balloon? This is the first I have heard of this.

Well, I can't quite make out the words, but I can see where it's supposed to be written - the side or underside of the balloon's basket in the scene where Sayid, Charlie and AL look upwards.