Cost Of making wireless BroadBand Availible to All!!

Altreab

Simple question but possibly difficult answer
How much would it cost to make Wireless Broadband availible to all people in the country? Would it be possible to deliver a wireless service to 100% of the country with the following service levels

Download Speeds 5Meg and faster
Upload Speed 1Meg and faster
Decent Bandwidth Allowances .... say 40+ Gig a month
Monthly cost €30-€40 a month

What would the capital investment for a wireless network that speed be? Can it be done?

watty

Yes it is possible
Though 2M download, 256 K up and 20G cap would be more than good.

The rip off artists would not be happy with 10M each way and 200G cap.

"Normal" average people would be very happy with a low contention 500K down and 100K up and 5G Cap. A 20:1 contention 10Mbps dowloand can be as "poor" as that.

The capital investment is less than that required to double ADSL from 5km to 10km and make 90% of lines work. Probabily.

I won't suggest figures as the equipment costs for different existing wireless operators differ widely.

Urban Weigl

In my opinion, wireless is not the solution. To date, it cannot deliver the speeds and contention rates that copper can. That isn't to say that it cannot successfully serve parts of the country, but as a whole, it is far from the ultimate solution.

Sponge Bob

Altreab wrote:

Download Speeds 5Meg and faster
Upload Speed 1Meg and faster
Decent Bandwidth Allowances .... say 40+ Gig a month
Monthly cost €30-€40 a month

This can be done .

What would the capital investment for a wireless network that speed be? Can it be done?

A high mast density is a prerequisite, to do wattys plan would require fewer masts etc.

As the government would have to get the msts in place first, ideally thru a tax break like hotels/car parks/creches , we are a good bit away from cooking up a high quality universal 5mbit or 2mbit scheme owing to lack of masts .

watty

Urban Weigl wrote:

In my opinion, wireless is not the solution. To date, it cannot deliver the speeds and contention rates that copper can. That isn't to say that it cannot successfully serve parts of the country, but as a whole, it is far from the ultimate solution.

I agree that first adsl should be fixed. Also Wireless should be at a premium if adsl is available so as to leave more BW free for those that can't get ADSL.

All Exchanges should have ADSL2 / VDSL

Lines should be fixed

Down to 256kbps above 6km exchange distance should be allowed.

8Mbps / 10Mbps should be available (but 1M for basic package) within 4km to 5km


If they can do it in N.I. they can do it here.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote:

This can be done .

A high mast density is a prerequisite, to do wattys plan would require fewer masts etc.

As the government would have to get the msts in place first, ideally thru a tax break like hotels/car parks/creches , we are a good bit away from cooking up a high quality universal 5mbit or 2mbit scheme owing to lack of masts .

There is enough masts, *NOW*, for my plan... Then if you add masts the power goes down and Speed goes up.

Mobile phone masts are safe. But even if they wern't, ironically, lots more would make it safer. If there was any danger at all, it would be the handset not the mast. No danger from handset (other than exploding dodgy 3rd party Lithium batteries) has ever been proven.

watty

You need a "joined up thinking" plan. Utilising eircom and non-eircom backhaul, MANs, ADSL2/VDSL, fixing lines, adding sub cabinets maybe fed by fibre in areas with lots of pair gains, etc, etc. And a coherent Wireless plan.

Then maybe 6 or 10 Satellite stations instead of the 4000+ we have in Ireland as if we was the Sahara or Amazon Jungle.

nadir

I think wireless is the way to go, it's decent now, and will be aweseom in the future, there is great scope for setting up a wireless network like this, and lots of cash to be gained too.

The Real B-man

Wireless is ****e in this country Isp's overselling there products on the current infrastructure is the main problem i would get DSL anyday if i could

Sponge Bob

The Real B-man wrote:

Wireless is ****e in this country Isp's overselling there products on the current infrastructure is the main problem i would get DSL anyday if i could

that is not the issue

If an SLA driven wireless plan were in place then the packages simply must be delivered. Universal means EXACTLY what it sez on the can.

Whether the cost is bearable to the Taxpayer/EU is a separate issue.

I would surmise that Universal 2mbit could be done for c.€150m but Universal 5Mbit could cost 3 or 4 times that .

Lest anybody think that is excessive, Universal Free Line Rental for pensioners costs the state €6m a month and you can guess where that business will go in the morning if an alternative Universal Network with a Universal SLA were in place instead .

The Universal Urban plan , proposed by the Chambers of Commerce would deliver a Universal high speed 100mbit network using fibre or fibre/co-ax and could benefit about 60% of the population, that has been costed by teh chambers at €2Bn .

€150m would also build 2.5 x Charlestown Bypasses or 3 x Cavan Bypasses but would take more traffic off the roads every single day than they actually carry . Its 10% of the new roads budget in any given year and what eircom gets off the state for Universal Pensioner Line rental every 2 years.

bk

And for all of that relatively small cost, we would be one of the first countries in the world with universal BB and it would become a major point for the government and IDA to trumpet to voters and people/countries around the world.

Altreab

Sponge Bob wrote:

that is not the issue

Whether the cost is bearable to the Taxpayer/EU is a separate issue.

I would surmise that Universal 2mbit could be done for c.€150m but Universal 5Mbit could cost 3 or 4 times that .

The Universal Urban plan , proposed by the Chambers of Commerce would deliver a Universal high speed 100mbit network using fibre or fibre/co-ax and could benefit about 60% of the population, that has been costed by teh chambers at €2Bn .

€150m would also build 2.5 x Charlestown Bypasses or 3 x Cavan Bypasses but would take more traffic off the roads every single day than they actually carry . Its 10% of the new roads budget in any given year and what eircom gets off the state for Universal Pensioner Line rental every 2 years.

So for about €450 Million we could have one of the best Universal BB networks in the world!!! To put that in context its well under a third of what the NRA will spend on Brand NEW roads in East Galway alone in the next 3 years!!
That would also be about Half what we are likely to be fined under the Kyoto agreement .......Not to mention the millions of hours lost in commuting time and also the reduced costs of cargo transport!!!

WHY Oh WHY cant this be done????

watty

Because the politicans see more votes in new roads than USO BB?

cormie

Is there anything, in any part of the world, where you have a wireless card that is basically like a sim card, where you can connect to wireless from anywhere and you are charged x amount and can top up etc just like a mobile phone? I know Vodaphone have some thing you can get but I'm not sure if it's the same idea as what I'm thinking!

shoegirl

Sponge Bob wrote:

Lest anybody think that is excessive, Universal Free Line Rental for pensioners costs the state €6m a month and you can guess where that business will go in the morning if an alternative Universal Network with a Universal SLA were in place instead .

The Universal Urban plan , proposed by the Chambers of Commerce would deliver a Universal high speed 100mbit network using fibre or fibre/co-ax and could benefit about 60% of the population, that has been costed by teh chambers at €2Bn .

€150m would also build 2.5 x Charlestown Bypasses or 3 x Cavan Bypasses but would take more traffic off the roads every single day than they actually carry . Its 10% of the new roads budget in any given year and what eircom gets off the state for Universal Pensioner Line rental every 2 years.

That figure doesn't even include free phone lines for people on disability benefits etc.

watty

cormie wrote:

Is there anything, in any part of the world, where you have a wireless card that is basically like a sim card, where you can connect to wireless from anywhere and you are charged x amount and can top up etc just like a mobile phone? I know Vodaphone have some thing you can get but I'm not sure if it's the same idea as what I'm thinking!

Not just Vodaphone.

Yes using Mobile Phone:
GSM dual slot / GPRS = 28k
3G = 350k
GSM + EDGE = 300k

Various Wifi Metropolitan systems (only a few are WiMax):
100k free
500k to 2M subscription.

There are often WiFi "hotspots" at airports and other public places that vary from free to pay.

aphex™

watty wrote:

Various Wifi Metropolitan systems (only a few are WiMax):

The first mention of WiMax in this thread. Odd, considering its range of 31 miles and allows for communication to ap's that don't have line of sight. Solves many problems with wireless technologies listed here (and not). I heard this is a real improvement on the current wireless technologies in use today. Perhaps it is not quite ready for full roll out yet but surely within two years it would?

lucernarian

aphex&#8482 wrote:

The first mention of WiMax in this thread. Odd, considering its range of 31 miles and allows for communication to ap's that don't have line of sight. Solves many problems with wireless technologies listed here (and not). I heard this is a real improvement on the current wireless technologies in use today. Perhaps it is not quite ready for full roll out yet but surely within two years it would?

WiMax is vapourware to be honest. Have they even ratified all the equipment needed for a service to be fully WiMax compliant? Even if they have ratified it now, it's been a long time coming and the costs will be high at first, I'm sure.

I cannot see it delivering the goods like what those claims say it will. I would be amazed to see someone getting a 14 Mbit connection if they are more than 6 km away.

klash

check this out

http://en.fon.com

watty

aphex&#8482 wrote:

The first mention of WiMax in this thread. Odd, considering its range of 31 miles and allows for communication to ap's that don't have line of sight. Solves many problems with wireless technologies listed here (and not). I heard this is a real improvement on the current wireless technologies in use today. Perhaps it is not quite ready for full roll out yet but surely within two years it would?

No. Wimax has same range as existing solutions. With some existing solutions you can have 30 km Radius. But not very many customers. Same with Wimax. The long range Wimax needs LOS and aerial on roof.

With more "typical" Wimax as it might be deployed you will get 6km radius.

I'm 12.5Km from my wireless base (I'm on 3M/0.5). Limit is about 15Km. But it could be in theory extended to 50km with expensive aerials, assuming unlikely LOS and not many folk on the sector.

Wimax is well thought out, but it is Intel's solution to sell Intel chips. Plenty of existing systems can acheive the same things. It might next year or after bring down some operators costs but it is no magic answer to Wireless BB.

watty

klash wrote:

check this out

http://en.fon.com

Hype. It is more about sharing your own broadband to others than actually getting real BB infrastructure.

If I stuck my WiFi router on roof with the 13DBi Colinear Omni I'd do the same for about a 10km radius if folks pointed an MMDS dish and WiFi adaptor at me.

There is a similar group here MidWest WAN.

mayhem#

There are two issues to consider;

1. Is it technically possible? YES.
2. Is it commercially viable? NO (not with the current wholesale prices for backhaul).

E.

watty

Which?

fon or "Wireless Broadband for all"

Sponge Bob

mayhem# wrote:

1. Is it technically possible? YES.
2. Is it commercially viable? NO (not with the current wholesale prices for backhaul).

backhaul is a much smaller part of the overall equation than before with the advent of ESB fibre at reasonable prices a year or two ago.

mayhem#

watty wrote:

Which?

fon or "Wireless Broadband for all"

The latter.
Don't even get me started on the whole "Fon" thing...

E.

mayhem#

Sponge Bob wrote:

backhaul is a much smaller part of the overall equation than before with the advent of ESB fibre at reasonable prices a year or two ago.

OK, backhaul has come down, but is still to pricy.
Also the areas that actually have ESB POP's, fibre MAN's or other sources of decent backhaul connectivity are still to little to make it a viable option to cover the whole country with wireless broadband AND make the operation of this financially sustainable.

Also a point to note; seeing that most posts refer to either WiFi or Wimax it is worth remebering that both upload and download speeds are (mostly) the same....

E.

Sponge Bob

mayhem# wrote:

Also the areas that actually have ESB POP's, fibre MAN's or other sources of decent backhaul connectivity are still to little to make it a viable option to cover the whole country with wireless broadband AND make the operation of this financially sustainable.

well there are almost 100 more MAN installs in the pipeline Nationdwide by end 2007 and all will come with a mast .

even the third level institutions are going gigabit , see http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=APR056963

mayhem#

As you might have noticed I used the word "current" in my first reply....

Personally I think there is no point in trying to provide wireless coverage in areas that are (or can be) served with DSL, cable or "Ethernet to the home".
All of these will be cheaper to run that Wireless and are inherently more stable.
Wireless should primarily be aimed at areas where it is not viable to use a cabled network...

E.

watty

They should be cheaper than Wireless, but with Eircom pricing & line rental we probabily have the best climate in Europe for Wireless operators to be competitive.