big dog blues

Dyr

So, i was meant to get a bootiful big akita from a rescue today to be a new bestest buddy for my little shiba male. Wacked out a fair deal of cash to have the garden walls, gates etc raised and was all excited. But when he arrived the pair of em just couldnt get on so Mr akita aint getting a new home, Im gutted . If they were both the same size we could have risked letting them establish a pecking order over time but the size disparity meant too big a risk for my little fella.

One of the reasons for hostility is when my wee lad is out on his lead he is thwarted by local stray mutts snapping and barking at him so hes very snappy at first with other dogs, especially when on the lead. The rescue lady was furious at those little feckers running around outside, ive just taken it for granted at this stage


So has anyone had a similar problem before? Should i just give up on having a big dog again? Should i try get one as a pup (not my first choice, i would have preferred give an adult rescue dog a chance)?
Have the wee man neutered and hope he becomes less hostile to other males? Should i beat those damn neighbours dogs to death lol

btw that akita is a splendid animal and is still looking for a home, if anyones interested

peasant

Three thoughts:

- Try and get your current dog to be a bit more relaxed about other dogs. Find a group of "friendly" dogs or a training class or something and let him have "normal" experiences with other dogs without being constantly attacked.

- If you have an eye on another rescue dog, make sure that both dogs meet a few times on neutral ground, before you take them home. There is no territory to defend on neutral ground, which should give you a better picture of how well they are or aren't getting along

- A fully grown Akita might not be the best possible choice for introduction into an existing dog-human-territory situation.
As a generalisation, Akitas are VERY territorial, VERY keen on advancing in the pecking order and slightly more dog agressive than other breeds.
I would suggest a more docile big dog. (Many a happy-chappy Lab-mix looking for a home)

Dyr

1) Is a good idea and i considered it but the options are limited, if i let him off lead in the park he'll annoy dogs that are on lead an tbh there a few dogs there off lead usually that are aggresive so id rather have him under control. He need's more interaction with dogs without the restriction of a lead ( i think all dogs need this) but without the risk of some big lump trying to kill him. Training class is an idea but i havent seen any in the area

2) We tried this to a degree, walking them both outside the house at first but those stray mutts barking and snapping immeditately put the akita and my lad on edge. Ideally we should have done this a few times but I dunno if any shelter will ship a dog out repeatedly to interact on neutral ground with another dog. I think no matter what the shibas attittude to any dog on his territory will be hostile but he'll settle down once the other dog doesnt reciprocate it (he has in the past anyway)

3) Very true about akitas, shiba males tend to have the same agressive tendencies towards other males. And in retrospect its something i was probably complacent about in our guy, just because his size had made it easily manageable. I would really like an akita though so I might look at trying with a pup or a female. Drawing board time first I think, though

BobTheBeat

Had a very similar situation some time ago.

We rehomed a 1 year old labrador cross, as a companion for our 8 year old Labrador retriever. Day arrived to take her home, we pulled up outside of the house, lab/retreiver sees the cross and attacks her straight away.

Returning her was not an option for us, as she would have been destroyed without a doubt (not the most attractive looking dog at the time and had had difficulty being rehomed already). So we played mediators between the two. Introduced them to one another very slowly over 2 to 3 days. This involved short sessions of them walking around each other, sizing up and sniffing etc. The fought every now and again, but we let the lab/retriever know that this wasnt allowed (he was doing all the attacking). Now, 2 years later they get on very well.

Later, I thought a bit more about why the attacks occurred. The new dog arrived into our home/labs territory, in the machine that brought him for walks, with the human he respects most (my dad), and I suppose became instantly jealous.
Like Peasant said, neutral ground is the ticket. They will inevitably joust for position, but this will be sorted out quite quickly. But just make sure one does not completely dominate the other.

Best of luck anyways.:)

Irish-Lass

bambi where do you live. I have a female dog who adores all dogs and hasn't a bad bone in her body......my other dog can be a bit yappie when you first meet her but calms down once she gets over it.

I am in Dublin so if thats an option I don't mind meeting up with you with our Jess.

Another point is that your shiba is male so was the akita....what about looking at a female dog as a freind for your shiba

karlin

- Try and get your current dog to be a bit more relaxed about other dogs. Find a group of "friendly" dogs or a training class or something and let him have "normal" experiences with other dogs without being constantly attacked.

This is really crucial. If you have not had this dog in structured obedience classes using positive methods -- such as those from dogtrainingireland.ie -- that should be the first port of call. Your shiba needs the opportunity to meet other dogs and people in a safe, informal but structured environment and the bonding he will go thru through learning alongside you will both help his confidence, your ability to manage him easily, and his ability to interact positively with other dogs.

I would not recommend simply meeting with other friendly dogs as this would not necessarily be safe for the other dogs. Taking the wrong approach in such introductions could worsen the problem rather than improve the situation. Also you would benefit from having a qualified trainer assess your fellow to gauge what is safe in terms of his interactions with other dogs.

I'd recommend doing this and having the snapping well in hand long before you consider a second dog. A puppy is no less likely to be the object of aggression for a dog that hasn;t learned to be calm and comfortable around other dogs and is potentially far more at risk of a real accident than an older dog. The other issue of course is that if your shiba goes for someone esle's dog your shiba could be put down by wardens for aggressiveness and you'd have little grounds to prevent this. So all around, it would be a real plus to know your shiba is happy around other dogs and that you have just the right environment for getting a second dog.

The good news is that this is all very addressable and that a large dog might be a great choice for your dog. But putting a breed that already has an aggressive capability (an akita) around a smaller dog that has some aggression issues, even if simply fear aggression, could end up as your worst nightmare. Be aware too that akitas are a restricted breed in Ireland and would need to be muzzled in public etc. You would also want to make sure the rescue you are dealing with can properly assess breed temperament and that any breeder is IKC registered and KNOWN for good tempered dogs -- the backyard breeders are not going to care one jot and indeed often are trying to bring out aggression in the breed. :mad:

Tabitharose

Irish-Lass wrote:

bambi where do you live. I have a female dog who adores all dogs and hasn't a bad bone in her body......my other dog can be a bit yappie when you first meet her but calms down once she gets over it.

I am in Dublin so if thats an option I don't mind meeting up with you with our Jess.

Another point is that your shiba is male so was the akita....what about looking at a female dog as a freind for your shiba

Jess is adorable & female so would be a fantastic idea to get your doglets together - just be ready for lots of kisses from Jess Bambi

Dyr

oops i thought this thread had run its course

karlin, ive looked at obedience classes a year back but its hard to get to them when you dont drive. Though a lady i know is holding some in swords now so im going to look into that. the little man aint the beast of bodmin moor, hes just not getting enough exposure to strange environments/animals, our sisters dog has stayed with us for periods and they were both fine, mainly because the sisters fella accepts that he's not the top dog in our house. And yes, im aware of the dangerous dogs act, had shepards for years and years.

Lass, like the sidebar says, im in ballymun, anywhere near you?

ferdi

Woke up this mornin'

after another heavy night

and it happened again, lord!

my two dogs had a fight

i got the big dog blues
yeah i got the big dog blues..

Irish-Lass

Bambi wrote:

oops i thought this thread had run its course

Lass, like the sidebar says, im in ballymun, anywhere near you?

Bambi why don't you pm me your mobile and I could meet you over the weekend at the park facing the FAS Centre at the back of ballymun if thats near enough to you.

Training Classes are good but if you have a nervous dog it could be the wrong place as dogs get excited and can bark etc and might make your dog worse.

But if you want to meet up with me let me know. The dogs can meet on the lead get to know each other and then go play, Jess is very socialable isn't aggressive at all so will not go for your dog, all she will want to do is lick him and play with him. If your interested PM and we can arrange something, if you like

Dyr

Poppintree park? i know it well but this weekend is out as im away but i might just take you up on that kind offer next weekend if it suit's. Will PM you

Irish-Lass

Tabitharose wrote:

Jess is adorable & female so would be a fantastic idea to get your doglets together - just be ready for lots of kisses from Jess Bambi

Tabitharose she just wants you to know she is there thats all and I mean she does love you so she has to give you kisses..............I keep telling you Jess has to meet Elle.......now that would be interesting if not a little scary:eek:

Bambi no problem will be around next weekend and can meet you, didn't know the name of the park but if thats handy for you can meet you there as I have the car so don't mind driving.

Dyr

Tabitharose wrote:

Jess is adorable & female so would be a fantastic idea to get your doglets together - just be ready for lots of kisses from Jess Bambi

oh shes adorable alirght but she's half terrier half duracell bunny as well i think Big thanks to IL for unleashing the licking machine jess on my little reprobate, he was overwhelmed with love

Irish-Lass

oh I think she was a little smitten by your guy as well...............even if he couldn't keep up with her.........Jess runs on duracell and recharges herself at night. She is just building your guy up slowly so he can eventually last the 2 hours......wait till you meet Sheba now thats double trouble great meeting you as well Bambi

luckat

Karen Pryor (author of the dog training/ behavioural science book Don't Shoot the Dog) recommends warming the cockles of a scared doggie's heart to other dogs by giving her a treat every time you see another dog while out walking.

She puts it something like this: if you had a neighbour you didn't like, and every time you saw him someone gave you $10, you'd soon start liking the sight of him!

Treats don't work with my dog when we're out walking, though - for some reason, she just accepts them and then drops them. (She's not scared of other dogs, but I'd like her to walk more to heel than she does, and have tried treats for this.)

But you might try the treat method with your dog.

Also, the vet told me that it's much easier for dogs of opposite sexes to live together happily - have you thought of getting a (spayed) bitch? She'll still regard your dog as her pack when she's out, and is likely to send off any nasty strays.

peasant

Personally, I'm not such a great fan of the "treat" method.

I do use treats to introduce something new, get the dogs' attention and make it really clear that have have done what was asked by rewarding them with a treat. But once they know what is what the treat is quickly phased out and replaced by praise only.

The problem with treats is that any halfways clever dog will soon manage to turn you into a food dispenser. Any and all behaviour that is usually rewarded with a treat will be shown over and over (often randomly and out of context) just to get at another treat. Soon you won't be able to move without carrying half a ton of treats at all times and your dog will not "interact" with its environement any more but "perform" routines in order to be rewarded.

The end result is that both you and the dog will just revolve around yourselves and the bag of treats and not interact with your environement anymore. Another drawback is that this fixation on rewards eventually prevents the dog from learning something all by itself and not tought by you. As there was no treat at the end, the learning experience wasn't worth it and won't really sink in.

Praise is so much easier to give (+ quickly and at the right time) than having to rummage around for a treat and finally giving it when the dog has already forgotten what exactly it was that it is being rewarded for.

Plus praise is so much easier to bring along and it doesn't give you smelly pockets

karlin

peasant wrote:

The problem with treats is that any halfways clever dog will soon manage to turn you into a food dispenser. Any and all behaviour that is usually rewarded with a treat will be shown over and over (often randomly and out of context) just to get at another treat. Soon you won't be able to move without carrying half a ton of treats at all times and your dog will not "interact" with its environement any more but "perform" routines in order to be rewarded.

This should never be the case. I've never had to carry around pockets of treats! The method of using treats for motivation is to move from treating to establish the desired response, then start to only treat some of the time, then eventually only occasionally treat for reinforcement, though many find dropping treats entirely fr praise works fine too. I like to use the occasional nice treat to keep a really pleasant connection to any specific cue. I've used both praise and treat-based methods and training happens much much faster for me anyway using treat based approaches combined with praise, not praise alone. Especially for housetraining!

I think it comes down to whatever positive, motivational method works best for an individual and the way in which they interact with their dog. If people are more comfortable with praise alone and that works, that's the ultimate goal. I'd certaoinly not just do treats, and no praise -- the two have to be combined. I've recently started using clickers too, as an experiment, and have found these are really great for giving an instant unambiguous positive association for dogs. You can click right at the key point and the dogs really respond to that precision and learn very fast. It was so much easier for one of my dogs to begin to understand what he needed to do on the agility weave poles using the clicker compared to other approaches.