Illegal Mexican immigrants in the US.

Karl Hungus

Ok, aside from the usual bell-ringers at Stormfront, I don't think this has been that big a deal with the average internet go'er (Or maybe it has, and I've not really noticed?), but whatever the case, I've noticed a lot of US based forums that I visit have exploded in discussion over Mexican immigrants as of late.

Now, as I understand things, there are plans to give citizenship to an impossibly large number of illegal Mexican immigrants estimated around 12,000,000, but some sources I've heard have placed this number as high as 20,000,000, but there's no real way of knowing.

On one hand, just giving out a blanket citizenship to all illegal immigrants seems outright loopy, and there's no way of knowing who on earth you're giving citizenship to, they could pretty much be anyone. On the other hand, it could possibly cut out a problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants at lower wages, which gives rise to the "They took our jobs!" arguement, and with the same rights, the previously illegal immigrants would have to be payed the same wage as everyone else, resulting in a much more level playing field in reguards to the jobs market. And... On the other hand of that, illegal immigration could still continue, and certain companies could undercut the now legal mexican immigrants, making enourmous problems for everybody.

Anywho, the really serious problems have nothing to do with jobs at all, but rather that a number of Mexicans want to "Reclaim" the land that the US took from Mexico during the Mexican-American War in the mid 1800s. Sounds pretty crazy indeed, especially when you hear things about Mexicans wanting "Their" land back. *Cough*Native Americans*Cough* :rolleyes:

I've heard many things about American flags being torn down and replaced with Mexican flags.

Now I honestly do wonder, what do people here think of this situation in the States?
How would people here feel if the Irish flag was torn down and replaced with a foreign one?
Anyone have any more information on this issue to add?
Thoughts?

bonkey

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now I honestly do wonder, what do people here think of this situation in the States?

The major thing that worries me is that there is a distinction being made between immigrant and Mexican immigrant.

jc

Ruu_Old

I have some sympathy for the immigrants in the US but at the same time im outraged at this blanket system because I went about it the legal way (long and expensive as it was) to get "the privilage" to live and work here.

Pazaz 21

AFAIK congress is offering a gradual citizenship, not a general amnesty to every Mexican it can find. Illegal imigrants will have to be living in the country for a number of years, undergo a citizenship test and pay back taxes to the time they started working in the country which doesn't sound too cheap!!

As far as "reclaiming their land" WTF? If someone came over here and started ripping down the Irish flag and replacing it another one or something, i'd be like, wait hold on a minute !!

And since when do the Mexicans have a right to American land? I agree if the Native Americans wanted to go aroung ripping down American flags and start "reclaiming their land", i'd have no problem with that.

Karl Hungus

bonkey wrote:

The major thing that worries me is that there is a distinction being made between immigrant and Mexican immigrant.

jc

Well to be fair there bonkey, the distinction is that every other immigrant isn't trying to "Reclaim their land" as certain Mexicans are.

Ruu_Old

Under the terms of the proposed Senate bill, immigrants who have been in the US for five years or more will be granted a green card if they work for an additional six years, pay back taxes and a $2,000 fine.

Those who have been in the US for between two and five years will be permitted to work for another three years but will have to return to their home countries to apply for a green card. There is also no guarantee they will get it.

Those who have been in the country for less than two years will be required to leave but will be permitted to apply for a temporary worker visa.
>

Congress failed to come to an agreement on Friday, so who knows if it will go ahead at all. Theres going to be a huge amount of protests today because being an illegal immigrant means that you have committed a felony rather than a civil offence.

bonkey

Karl Hungus wrote:

Well to be fair there bonkey, the distinction is that every other immigrant isn't trying to "Reclaim their land" as certain Mexicans are.

And to be equally fair, not every Mexican immigrant is either.

Nor, I would hazard, is every participant in the "reclaim our land" side of things an illegal immigrant.

The point I'm really making is that these strike me as two seperate issues. It worries me that one is being seen as somehow part of the other (no matter which you see as part of which).

I can't see, for example, that granting an illegal Mexican immigrant either a greencard or citizenship is going to have any impact on whether or not that person believes that California, New Mexico etc. belong to Mexico and should be given back....unless one also believs that these "reclaim our land" moves are actually "bully the US into allowing us to work in the US" tactics under a completely different guise.

Now, as I understand things, there are plans to give citizenship to an impossibly large number of illegal Mexican immigrants

As I understand it, there are proposals to legalize a large number of illegal immigrants (nationality unspecified), with a broad breakdown of the legalisation as follows:

1) Those who have been in the US more than five years could stay and earn citizenship - in effect, get a greencard-equivalent legalisation.

2) Those in the US between two and five years could file for a temporary work visa, but would have to return to their country of origin to process it.

3) Those in the US less than two years would have to return home and stand in line with others seeking legal entry.

This was the major thrust of the bill being discussed in the Senate towards the end of last week. CItizenship has been considered, but there appears (to date, at least) to be relatively few in government willing to stand beside it.

The front page of google news has, at the moment, a set of articles linking to the latest state of play, and the few I've checked seem to be broadly in agreement with this breakdown.

jc

Karl Hungus

bonkey wrote:

And to be equally fair, not every Mexican immigrant is either.

I never said that was the case. Hence, I said "Certain" Mexicans.

bonkey wrote:

Nor, I would hazard, is every participant in the "reclaim our land" side of things an illegal immigrant.

Again, I never said that was the case.

bonkey wrote:

The point I'm really making is that these strike me as two seperate issues. It worries me that one is being seen as somehow part of the other (no matter which you see as part of which).

They are indeed seperate issues, but they are related issues. I'm merely bringing up both subjects under the one thread, as they are both concerning Mexicans, and many US based boards I've visited are rife with discussion on both these topics, but boards.ie which is not rife with such discussion can indeed afford to keep a number of issues under the same topic in one thread.

Gandhi

A huge number of Mexicans come to the States, work for 10 years or so, and go back to Mexico and basically retire on the money they made doing 10 years of menial jobs in the States. Most other immigrants come to the US to settle permanently.

The president is proposing a "guest worker" program whereby you could get a temporary unskilled work visa that would not necessarily lead to a permanent visa. Some non-Mexican immigrant groups are opposed to this as they see it as favouring the Mexican immigration pattern over the patterns seen in immigrants from other nations.

Like Ruu, I don't like the idea of illegals just magically getting green cards / citizenship, after I went through all the proper channels to do it myself, but I don't see an alternative. Deporting 12 million workers would cause economic chaos. Because of terrorist concerns (whether they are overblown or not) any politician that proposes just leaving things as they are, with 12 million "invisible people" floating around would be committing political suicide. Much as I hate to agree with Bush, the guest-worker program is probably the best idea.

The "reclaim the land" thing, as far as I can see, is confined to a few nut-jobs, and college professors with too much time on their hands. I honestly can't see the average Mexican illegal immigrant who risked his live to cross the Rio Grande to get to Arizona, then deciding it would be great if Arizona became part of Mexico, after he almost drowned to get away from Mexico. I'd guess that comes from right-wingers who have a problem with signs in Spanish going up everywhere.

Hobbes

Karl Hungus wrote:

On the other hand, it could possibly cut out a problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants at lower wages, which gives rise to the "They took our jobs!" arguement, and with the same rights, the previously illegal immigrants would have to be payed the same wage as everyone else, resulting in a much more level playing field in reguards to the jobs market.

I went to a job interview in San Diego one time and the whole interview revolved around how I could jump the border to come work with them. Needless to say I didn't take the job.

However there are a lot of companies hire because illegals can be paid dirt cheap and treated like crap because they are illegal.

Making a large volume legal isn't going to solve it on the jobs front. they will either
a) loose thier job to another illegal. (does the amnesty extend to employers?)

b) They get the fair wage as everyone in the US which is then passed onto the customer and prices in general rise.

lostexpectation

Pazaz 21 wrote:

And since when do the Mexicans have a right to American land? I agree if the Native Americans wanted to go aroung ripping down American flags and start "reclaiming their land", i'd have no problem with that.

it is a bit too late now but I think you should go look at few old maps and see how far mexico's ancestors spread across north america and where exactly the line is between 'native mexicans' and 'native americans'??

Hobbes

Pretty sure they owned portions of Texas and California at one time.

Incidently, although someone mentioned it as a joke to me how about Bush use all these immigrants to sign up to fight in the Iraq war. They could implement a kind of restrctive draft (laws in the draft already cater for this).

Eoin

The other side of it is can American afford not to have these workers? Several American economists have said that large parts of America depend on illegal workers to function daily (California / West coast being a prime example). One said that the cost of orange juice to produce would more than triple if they couldn't hire Mexicans, but only Americans. Also, I presume that most of these workers are taxed on their money, yet can't claim any benefits as they don't have a SSN?

I appreciate that the people who went the legal way about it are a little pìssed off about it, but I imagine that these same people are educated and had a far better chance of qualifying for a visa, then an uneducated Mexican living in abject poverty.

Pazaz 21

Hobbes wrote:

Pretty sure they owned portions of Texas and California at one time.

Incidently, although someone mentioned it as a joke to me how about Bush use all these immigrants to sign up to fight in the Iraq war. They could implement a kind of restrctive draft (laws in the draft already cater for this).

Ya, Operation Mexican Shield. Lol.

Pazaz 21

lostexpectation wrote:

it is a bit too late now but I think you should go look at few old maps and see how far mexico's ancestors spread across north america and where exactly the line is between 'native mexicans' and 'native americans'??

I also think that they owned parts of Texas and California at some stage, but other then that i don't think they would have any claim to anything else. Not that they really have a claim to these anyway!

flogen

As far as the reclaiming land thing goes, and the swapping US flags for Mexican ones, isn't that (and I speak as person with basically no knowledge of Mexican/US affairs) not too dissimilar from Nationalists in Northern Ireland flying the tricolour? I mean, what would happen if a Union Jack was flown in a Nationalist area of NI, would it not be torn down?

Wasn't there a big deal over a SF Belfast Mayor having the tricolour in his office/on city hall? I'm not sure if it was alongside the UJ though

shoegirl

I don't have much sympathy for illegal Irish in the US - the US has previously been very generous with its green card lotteries and VISA programmes. And considering the tough time we give non-EU applicants - having to apply when outside Ireland so as to make it impossible to arrive without a job offer - the US system is a walk in the park.

Having said that much of the push for an amnesty is coming from a cynical effort by the republicans to garner the hispanic vote. And the suggestions of a gastarbeiter temporary visa is particularly pernicious.

Manic Moran

The other side of it is can American afford not to have these workers? Several American economists have said that large parts of America depend on illegal workers to function daily (California / West coast being a prime example).

My history is a little hazy, but didn't certain Southern states make a similar argument in favour of a certain cheap labour force in about 1860?

NTM

Beer is Life

I always hear about Mexicans doing jobs Amercians wont do, and I always think, isnt there like 2 million prisoners sitting around on their arses all day in Americas prisons? Why cant they do the menial labor for even less money?

Pazaz 21

Beer is Life wrote:

I always hear about Mexicans doing jobs Amercians wont do, and I always think, isnt there like 2 million prisoners sitting around on their arses all day in Americas prisons? Why cant they do the menial labor for even less money?

Because they were sent to prison, not forced labour camps!! Why not round up all the homeless people and send them to work in the fields aswell ? Its amoral and kinda a form of slavery, don't ya think!!

Zombrex

Beer is Life wrote:

I always hear about Mexicans doing jobs Amercians wont do, and I always think, isnt there like 2 million prisoners sitting around on their arses all day in Americas prisons? Why cant they do the menial labor for even less money?

Because the cost of policing them would out way the income they generation. Plus its slavery, which kinda went out in America about 150 years ago.

mountainyman

Prison labour is widely used in the united states

bonkey

The major objection to forced labour / prison labour I've heard is that it means that state-funded workers (which is in effect what the prisoners are) can undercut "genuine" capitalist-principle-adhering businesses.

Eoin

mountainyman wrote:

Prison labour is widely used in the united states

Indeed - don't many prisoners work in call centres doing sales in the States? Don't know if I would be too keen on handing out my address and credit card details to them...

Beer is Life

Pazaz 21 wrote:

Because they were sent to prison, not forced labour camps!! Why not round up all the homeless people and send them to work in the fields aswell ? Its amoral and kinda a form of slavery, don't ya think!!

:rolleyes:
Chill the fvck out, its only an idea

Zombrex

mountainyman wrote:

Prison labour is widely used in the united states

As far as I know they aren't forced to do it though. Might be wrong about that though, nothing surprises me about the US prision system.

Pazaz 21

Beer is Life wrote:

I always hear about Mexicans doing jobs Amercians wont do, and I always think, isnt there like 2 million prisoners sitting around on their arses all day in Americas prisons? Why cant they do the menial labor for even less money?

Even if you could get the 2 million prisoners to do the labour intensive jobs the Illegals do, such as Agriculture, Construction and Manufacturing, there are still only 2 million of them, compared to 12 MILLION illegal Mexicans.

The point is that without this huge illegal workforce there is no way that the US would still be competitive in the business world today. With globalisation and the cheap and plentyful work force in Asia, particularly China, there is no way the US economy could stand to lose this workforce.

Pazaz 21

eoin_s wrote:

Indeed - don't many prisoners work in call centres doing sales in the States? Don't know if I would be too keen on handing out my address and credit card details to them...

When is the last time you saw an illegal Mexican working in a call centre ? It's one thing to expect prisoners who have nothing to do all day to sit on their a** and talk on the phone. It's another thing entirely to expect them to do backbreaking work for less then even the illegal Mexicans were making.

Eoin

Pazaz 21 wrote:

When is the last time you saw an illegal Mexican working in a call centre ? It's one thing to expect prisoners who have nothing to do all day to sit on their a** and talk on the phone. It's another thing entirely to expect them to do backbreaking work for less then even the illegal Mexicans were making.

I wasn't making a comparison between the illegal / undocumented Mexicans and the prisoners. I was merely stating that some prisoners do work when they are in prison.

Pazaz 21

eoin_s wrote:

I wasn't making a comparison between the illegal / undocumented Mexicans and the prisoners. I was merely stating that some prisoners do work when they are in prison.

Fair enough, the post wasn't an attack on your post, just a general statement that was connected to your post.

Another thing, could illegal Mexicans even afford to become citizens with the amount of fines and back taxes they would have to pay? Anybody know how much tax they would have to pay?

Pazaz 21

I've got the perfect solution. Why not let the GOP pass the Felony Immagration Law, then we could send all the illegal Mexicans to jail and force them to work for less then they did in the first place, problem sorted!!:rolleyes: