Illegal Mexican immigrants in the US.

Eoin

Pazaz 21 wrote:

Another thing, could illegal Mexicans even afford to become citizens with the amount of fines and back taxes they would have to pay? Anybody know how much tax they would have to pay?

That's a very good point - though I think a lot of illegal workers are paying taxes, but don't get to claim any of the benefits. But that could still leave the question of a fine. I would think that a lot of the money goes back to Mexico, so they wouldn't have much / any savings.

Pazaz 21 wrote:

The point is that without this huge illegal workforce there is no way that the US would still be competitive in the business world today.

Another good point - as I said earlier, the production costs of lots of goods (Californian Orange Juice for example) could triple without the illegal workers.

Beer is Life

Pazaz 21 wrote:

The point is that without this huge illegal workforce there is no way that the US would still be competitive in the business world today.

Im willing to bet if those illegal Mexicans all disappeared tomorrow, there are enough people from other parts of the world who would go in, legally, and fill the void. One study highlighted on CNN showed that the agriculture industry could up average illegal's wages by 40% and still make money. With the way the Mexican situation is now, they are retarding the mechinisation of the agriculture industry because its so easy to hire them for so little money.

They dont seem to me to be essential to Americas economy, if they go, they can be replaced by other (legal)migrant workers or by machines.

Pazaz 21

Beer is Life wrote:

Im willing to bet if those illegal Mexicans all disappeared tomorrow, there are enough people from other parts of the world who would go in, legally, and fill the void. One study highlighted on CNN showed that the agriculture industry could up average illegal's wages by 40% and still make money. With the way the Mexican situation is now, they are retarding the mechinisation of the agriculture industry because its so easy to hire them for so little money.

Oh ya, it's totally their fault for people doing what is the easiest thing!!

They dont seem to me to be essential to Americas economy, if they go, they can be replaced by other (legal)migrant workers or by machines.

Wouldn't it be easier, in the situation you are putting forward, to just make the illegal Mexicans, legal. I mean what would be the point of hiring other (legal) migrant workers when the illegal Mexicans are already in place and know the job?

Plus, let me guess the 40% increase in illegal's wages still makes the wages a lot less then the minimum wage of a legal worker?

Eoin

Beer is Life wrote:

Im willing to bet if those illegal Mexicans all disappeared tomorrow, there are enough people from other parts of the world who would go in, legally, and fill the void. One study highlighted on CNN showed that the agriculture industry could up average illegal's wages by 40% and still make money. With the way the Mexican situation is now, they are retarding the mechinisation of the agriculture industry because its so easy to hire them for so little money.

The agricultural industry might still "make money" if they increased the wages, or replaced them by machines, but their profit margins would be down. They would then have to increase their prices to make up for this.

Beer is Life wrote:

They dont seem to me to be essential to Americas economy, if they go, they can be replaced by other (legal)migrant workers or by machines.

Assuming that most of the work carried out by illegal Mexican workers is manual / unskilled, could you really see the States allowing an influx of similarly unskilled people in to replace the people they have deported to do the same work?

If they did, then you would have a load of Mexicans coming in legally and doing the same work as before, so you are back at square one.

Beer is Life

Pazaz 21 wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier, in the situation you are putting forward, to just make the illegal Mexicans, legal. I mean what would be the point of hiring other (legal) migrant workers when the illegal Mexicans are already in place and know the job?

Plus, let me guess the 40% increase in illegal's wages still makes the wages a lot less then the minimum wage of a legal worker?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060405-091814-1458r.htm

Read the part about self determination. Ever heard of Aztlan? There are quite a few prominent Mexican Americans who support self determination and annexing the south west states. Taking so many people from the same ethnic and cultural background could be a very big problem for the US

I dont know about the wage increase, but I know it would raise their wages above the poverty line

SteveS

Illegal immigration has always been an issue, though I think it has gotten more press because of the concern that terrorists can easily cross the border. Additionally, there are the economic concerns of having a large, underpaid workforce in the country.

Obvioulsy, there is a huge demand, especially in the argricultural industry. I work in a rural county in the northern US and there is a fairly large migrant worker population where I am. I don't know the solution, but there seems to be a need to have some security on the borders. Some have suggested a guest worker program to allow people in that want to work and then return to their home country. They should probably also streamline the immigration process to meet the demand for workers and make it so that there is no incentive to sneak in. One thing that needs to happen is that they need to be documented.

That's a very good point - though I think a lot of illegal workers are paying taxes, but don't get to claim any of the benefits.

I think it is the other way around. I can't speak for everywhere, but most of the workers in MI are paid in cash, so I doubt they are filing income taxes. As for services, children can go to school, they have access to basic medical care, and mental health services. I work for a public mental health agency and we serve all county residents, no proof of citizenship is required.

Pazaz 21

So whats the solution?

You can't just ignore the problem and you can't kick 12 Million people out of the country. You have to make them want to stay in their own country and leave America.

The only way i can see this happening is if the US uses the money it is going to spent on the border wall (first Israel, now this, i wonder who is going to get the contract for this one, Haliburton anybody), to improve the quality of life in Mexico. Building schools, Hospitals, Infastructure, Roads, etc. People will say, why should we help Mexico ? Because it is not only a benefit to the Mexicans, but also a benefit to the US. If they have a stable, happy life in Mexico they are not going to risk their lives to get to the US, now are they?

The US has spent billions in Iraq to rebuild infastructure, so they say, so why not help out Mexico?

Beer is Life

Pazaz 21 wrote:

So whats the solution?

You can't just ignore the problem and you can't kick 12 Million people out of the country. You have to make them want to stay in their own country and leave America.

The only way i can see this happening is if the US uses the money it is going to spent on the border wall (first Israel, now this, i wonder who is going to get the contract for this one, Haliburton anybody), to improve the quality of life in Mexico. Building schools, Hospitals, Infastructure, Roads, etc. People will say, why should we help Mexico ? Because it is not only a benefit to the Mexicans, but also a benefit to the US. If they have a stable, happy life in Mexico they are not going to risk their lives to get to the US, now are they?

The US has spent billions in Iraq to rebuild infastructure, so they say, so why not help out Mexico?

Perhaps this is the solution...

http://www.spp.gov/factsheet.asp?dName=fact_sheets

Make North America safer:

* Establish a common security perimeter by 2010.
* Develop a North American Border Pass with biometric identifiers.
* Develop a unified border action plan and expand border customs facilities.

Create a single economic space:

* Adopt a common external tariff.
* Allow for the seamless movement of goods within North America.
* Move to full labor mobility between Canada and the U.S.
* Develop a North American energy strategy that gives greater emphasis to reducing emissions of greenhouse gases -- a regional alternative to Kyoto.
* Review those sectors of NAFTA that were excluded.
* Develop and implement a North American regulatory plan that would include "open skies and open roads" and a unified approach for protecting consumers on food, health, and the environment.
* Expand temporary worker programs and create a "North American preference" for immigration for citizens of North America.

Spread benefits more evenly:

* Establish a North American Investment Fund to build infrastructure to connect Mexico's poorer regions in the south to the market to the north.
* Restructure and reform Mexico's public finances.
* Fully develop Mexican energy resources to make greater use of international technology and capital.

Institutionalize the partnership:

* Establish a permanent tribunal for trade and investment disputes.
* Convene an annual North American summit meeting.
* Establish a Tri-national Competition Commission to develop a common approach to trade remedies.
* Expand scholarships to study in the three countries and develop a network of Centers for North American Studies.

Pazaz 21

Beer is Life wrote:

Perhaps this is the solution...

http://www.spp.gov/factsheet.asp?dName=fact_sheets

Make North America safer:

* Establish a common security perimeter by 2010.
* Develop a North American Border Pass with biometric identifiers.
* Develop a unified border action plan and expand border customs facilities.

Create a single economic space:

* Adopt a common external tariff.
* Allow for the seamless movement of goods within North America.
* Move to full labor mobility between Canada and the U.S.
* Develop a North American energy strategy that gives greater emphasis to reducing emissions of greenhouse gases -- a regional alternative to Kyoto.
* Review those sectors of NAFTA that were excluded.
* Develop and implement a North American regulatory plan that would include "open skies and open roads" and a unified approach for protecting consumers on food, health, and the environment.
* Expand temporary worker programs and create a "North American preference" for immigration for citizens of North America.

Spread benefits more evenly:

* Establish a North American Investment Fund to build infrastructure to connect Mexico's poorer regions in the south to the market to the north.
* Restructure and reform Mexico's public finances.
* Fully develop Mexican energy resources to make greater use of international technology and capital.

Institutionalize the partnership:

* Establish a permanent tribunal for trade and investment disputes.
* Convene an annual North American summit meeting.
* Establish a Tri-national Competition Commission to develop a common approach to trade remedies.
* Expand scholarships to study in the three countries and develop a network of Centers for North American Studies.

Ya i saw this plan too, was kinda what i was on about.

SteveS

Pazaz 21 wrote:

So whats the solution?

You can't just ignore the problem and you can't kick 12 Million people out of the country. You have to make them want to stay in their own country and leave America.

The only way i can see this happening is if the US uses the money it is going to spent on the border wall (first Israel, now this, i wonder who is going to get the contract for this one, Haliburton anybody), to improve the quality of life in Mexico. Building schools, Hospitals, Infastructure, Roads, etc. People will say, why should we help Mexico ? Because it is not only a benefit to the Mexicans, but also a benefit to the US. If they have a stable, happy life in Mexico they are not going to risk their lives to get to the US, now are they?

The US has spent billions in Iraq to rebuild infastructure, so they say, so why not help out Mexico?

Mexico isn't exactly resource poor, but most of their wealth is concentrated in a small percentage of the population. I would support increased aid to Mexico if I actually thought it would go to infrastructure and not some politician's off-shore bank account.

DublinWriter

Pazaz 21 wrote:

The US has spent billions in Iraq to rebuild infastructure, so they say, so why not help out Mexico?

One word - Oil.

Google around for some of the clauses that the states have put in the agreements signed with Iraqi state-owned oil companies since the invasion. Scary.

Hobbes

DublinWriter wrote:

One word - Oil.

It goes beyond oil. For example Iraq phone infrastructure was scrapped when the US went in and they replaced it with a US structure which is totally incompatible with the rest of the middle east.

zuma

Hobbes wrote:

It goes beyond oil. For example Iraq phone infrastructure was scrapped when the US went in and they replaced it with a US structure which is totally incompatible with the rest of the middle east.

Mobile Phones infrastructure was changed completely(I think) to CDMA as GSM would mean that European companies would get the contracts for the equipment.
GSM is far superiour to CDMA and is used all over the world even in the US!

Basically Iraq, even if it becomes stable, is going to controlled by the US for centuries!