How Fergie rejuvinated Uniteds Season

Hobart

BaZmO* wrote:

His points are always stupid, it's just that in this case it holds true even if you do include the Bundesliga.

As you've said yourself earlier....

I know. But including the Bundesliga, you are creeping into an ambigous area whereby the leading team has played 4 less games than Manu. So it may call on PHB to actually answer some questions.

Anyhow, his points,stats etc... are all fairly moot tbh. League position is the only real teller and, yes "currently" Manu are probably the second best team in England.

Maybe they should think about bringing back Forlan. According to PHB he had a scoring record of 2 goals every 3 games when with Manu :rolleyes:.

PHB

Please stop quoting people who spout utter nonsense, it's really annoying to have to read them.

Even if the German league is in the top 4 leagues, and it probably is, the 4th best league, United are still ahead, and while you guys talk about them having games left, if that's the case, United are 8 points clear of Liverpool, b ut they aren't.

The point is, that in the 3 leagues, with similar levels of skill in all of them, United are doing very well. Their league form is very very good. And thats something nobody can stop

Lemlin

BaZmO* wrote:

Why are you changing your point of argument? You originally said that "United having the best attack in the Premiership is debatable" and I showed you the facts that would suggest otherwise.

I never changed the point of my argument. I said "United having the best attack in the Premiership is debatable" and it is.

As I said, you have shown stats that don't take into account that Henry missed a good part of the season and Adeyabor only arrived at Christmas.

The facts you have shown are statistics and we all know that statistics don't always tell the full story. Compare goals and assists since January when Adeyabor arrived and Henry got fit and I imagine Arsenal could come out on top.

BaZmO*

Lemlin wrote:

I never changed the point of my argument. I said "United having the best attack in the Premiership is debatable" and it is.

As I said, you have shown stats that don't take into account that Henry missed a good part of the season and Adeyabor only arrived at Christmas.

The facts you have shown are statistics and we all know that statistics don't always tell the full story. Compare goals and assists since January when Adeyabor arrived and Henry got fit and I imagine Arsenal could come out on top.

If you take into account minutes played by Utd's 3 Strikers RVN, Rooney & Saha (sure we'll even through in the 35 minutes Rossi played) it comes to 6064mins they have a combined goal and assist tally of 41 & 18 respectively.

Whereas Arsenal with Henry, Reyes, RVP, Adebayor & Bergkamp have played 6340mins and have a combined goal and assist tally of 34 & 25 respectively.

Would those stats not suggest that Utd. have a better attack in the PL?

The Muppet

Lemlin wrote:

Compare goals and assists since January when Adeyabor arrived and Henry got fit and I imagine Arsenal could come out on top.

Compare Goals and assists since last saturday evening and I Imagine United come out on Top.:D



I,m not being smart with you as has already been said stats taken in isolation can be used to eithre support or counter any argument and I,m not really interested in x is better than y becuause thats really down to personal opinion. As i said earlier in the thread I would not swap Uniteds attack for any other one in Premiership and thats taking nothing away from Mr. Henry.

The Insider

BaZmO* wrote:

If you take into account minutes played by Utd's 3 Strikers RVN, Rooney & Saha (sure we'll even through in the 35 minutes Rossi played) it comes to 6064mins they have a combined goal and assist tally of 41 & 18 respectively.

Whereas Arsenal with Henry, Reyes, RVP, Adebayor & Bergkamp have played 6340mins and have a combined goal and assist tally of 34 & 25 respectively.

Would those stats not suggest that Utd. have a better attack in the PL?

Rooney has played 2811 minutes this season and scored 14 giving him a strike rate of 1 goal in every 200 minutes.

Robbie Fowler has played 581 minutes and scored 4 giving him a strike rate of 1 goal every 145 minutes.

Does that make him a better player then Rooney... it does in it's shi**

Point being stats can be twisted to suit any argument you want to make, Lemlins original point was Utd having the best attack in the league is debatable and it is end off.

iregk

PHB wrote:

Please stop quoting people who spout utter nonsense, it's really annoying to have to read them.

Ok, we will all stop using your quotes so...:D

BaZmO*

The Insider wrote:

Robbie Fowler has played 581 minutes and scored 4 giving him a strike rate of 1 goal every 145 minutes.

What? Who said anything about Robbie Fowler? This was about Utd.'s and Arsenal's Forward line and I've done a comparison of the 2 over the course of the PL season so far (not over selected parts of the season) and Utd.'s come out on top. They're facts, not opinions.

Lemlin

BaZmO* wrote:

What? Who said anything about Robbie Fowler? This was about Utd.'s and Arsenal's Forward line and I've done a comparison of the 2 over the course of the PL season so far (not over selected parts of the season) and Utd.'s come out on top. They're facts, not opinions.

Yes, but you've neglected alot of statistics. As I said, Arsenal's present attack line is Adeyabor and Henry. One of them missed a part of the season and the other only arrived at Christmas.

You can throw stats at me all day but, as mentioned by others, whether or not they are a better strikeforce is down to opinion and open to debate. You can't just announce they are and expect people to accept it.

The top strikeforce in the PL will always be debatable, whether you like it or not.

For example, if United's strike force is so great, why the hell are they out of the Champions League and Arsenal are still in it? Take some factors like that into consideration. In fact, United are out of the CL because they didn't score enough goals. They drew too many matches where they couldn't score.

BaZmO*

Lemlin wrote:

You can throw stats at me all day but, as mentioned by others, whether or not they are a better strikeforce is down to opinion and open to debate. You can't just announce they are and expect people to accept it.

Don't worry I won't be. I've supplied the facts for you and it's up to you to make up your "opinion" on those "facts".

Lemlin wrote:

For example, if United's strike force is so great, why the hell are they out of the Champions League and Arsenal are still in it?

There you go again changing the point of the discussion. Were we not talking about the PL?

Hobart

Lemlin wrote:

Yes, but you've neglected alot of statistics. As I said, Arsenal's present attack line is Adeyabor and Henry. One of them missed a part of the season and the other only arrived at Christmas.

I think the point has be proven wrt to stats and certain posters use of them. There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

You can throw stats at me all day but, as mentioned by others, whether or not they are a better strikeforce is down to opinion and open to debate. You can't just announce they are and expect people to accept it.

You are correct.

For example, if United's strike force is so great, why the hell are they out of the Champions League and Arsenal are still in it? Take some factors like that into consideration. In fact, United are out of the CL because they didn't score enough goals. They drew too many matches where they couldn't score.

Again, you have a point, albeit one which is probably best left to another thread. The discussion at hand is/was Uniteds supposed resugence and ressurection from the bowels os desperation. Ok, that could be a bit of overkill on my part.

As a side not I would like to welcome PHB as are new moderator on the soccer forum. I have checked the charter at the top wrt what you can and cannot quote in your postings, I expect he's just editing the rules while I type, as I did not see anything there in this regard.

Lemlin

BaZmO* wrote:

Don't worry I won't be. I've supplied the facts for you and it's up to you to make up your "opinion" on those "facts".

There you go again changing the point of the discussion. Were we not talking about the PL?

Yes, we were but when you learn to take into account external variables (like I have mentioned - Henry missing a large part of the season, Adeyabor not even being in England for the full season), I'll stick to the PL.

My point is valid. If they are the best strikeforce in the PL, why haven't they been able to transform their superiority to Europe?

If you're so adamant they're the best, you must have a reason in mind for it. And to be quite honest, if you offered me a choice of just Henry or RVN, Rooney and Saha, I'd take Henry ahead of those three every day, even without Adeyabor.

BaZmO*

Lemlin wrote:

Yes, we were but when you learn to take into account external variables (like I have mentioned - Henry missing a large part of the season, Adeyabor not even being in England for the full season), I'll stick to the PL.

That's why I gave you the mins played Stats so that you could take into considersation games missed by all the mentioned players. Players on both teams have missed matches.

Lemlin wrote:

My point is valid. If they are the best strikeforce in the PL, why haven't they been able to transform their superiority to Europe?

Your point is only valid if you want to keep moving the goalposts. We weren't talking about Europe we were talking about the PL.
I think you're missing the whole point of what I'm saying. The fact of the matter is, Utd.'s Strikeforce have a better record in the PL this season. Again, that's fact. That's where I came into the discussion, I never started talking about Europe, if that was the case compare Henry to RVN over the past few years if you like.

Lemlin wrote:

If you're so adamant they're the best, you must have a reason in mind for it. And to be quite honest, if you offered me a choice of just Henry or RVN, Rooney and Saha, I'd take Henry ahead of those three every day, even without Adeyabor.

I'm not adamant, I was just pointing out facts.

The Insider

BaZmO* wrote:

What? Who said anything about Robbie Fowler? This was about Utd.'s and Arsenal's Forward line and I've done a comparison of the 2 over the course of the PL season so far (not over selected parts of the season) and Utd.'s come out on top. They're facts, not opinions.

I was simply showing stats can be twisted to try and prove anything, at the end of the day it is not clear cut that Utd have the best strike force in the premiership not matter how many stats you use it is up for debate i.e. debatable.

By the way the Fowler\Rooney stats ARE a comparison of the 2 over the course of the PL season so far.

PHB

The attack force does not consist of the strikers, it consists of the strikers, the wingers, and the AMC.
That is the attack force.

United have scored - 66
Arsenal have scored - 53

United have done this without a decent midfield.

Stats aren't the be all and end all, but they do point out some interesting things. They are not totally useless

Mitch Connor

i'll join in the strikeforce argument.

A stikeforce is made up of more then one player - it is the group and the option.s

I agree with the poster above who says they would take Henry over any of the united strikers, though it would be close with rooney cause of potential, but if you were to swap them for just one season then yes.

However, the united strikerforce of Ruud, Saha, Rooney and Rossi can not be bettered in england imo. I would not swap them for Henry, Adebayor, van Persie and Reyes. I don't rate adebayor or reyes, and henry and van persie aren't enough to swing it for me.

Chelsea offer Drogba, Crespo and Eidur G, Crespo and Eidur are quality, but drogba is a rich mans heskey imo, and the other two would not sway it.

Liverpool - not one of them would get in the united team imo, not even close (their midfield is a completely different story though!)

After that you are into Newcastle, Blackburn et cetra and they are obvious "no's"

As for why we did not do it in europe:

1 - we were playing crap.
2 - Rossi was and is too young to be thrown into a struggling side and be expected to save us.
3 - Saha was injured.
4 - Rooney was suspended for 3 of the games.

dannyd20

Read an article on Fergies mind-games, I'm not a big fan of Fergie but I've got to admit he's got a gift for winding people up. I don't think it will happen but it would be hilarious to see Mourinho do a 'Keegan' !!

The Guardian wrote:

At the weekend, he gave a master class in destabilisation. Take his analysis of Chelsea's run-in. Bolton away - they're not going to lose five games on the trot, and what with those swirling winds up north . . . Blackburn away? Wouldn't fancy that. And haven't they just discovered a dead swan round that way? Newcastle away - St James' Park is always tough, but playing there in Alan Shearer's final game? No thanks. The last touch was brilliant - probably the best bit of geeing up Shearer has had in years.

Read here

MrPillowTalk

Lemlin wrote:

Yes, we were but when you learn to take into account external variables (like I have mentioned - Henry missing a large part of the season, Adeyabor not even being in England for the full season), I'll stick to the PL.

My point is valid. If they are the best strikeforce in the PL, why haven't they been able to transform their superiority to Europe?

If you're so adamant they're the best, you must have a reason in mind for it. And to be quite honest, if you offered me a choice of just Henry or RVN, Rooney and Saha, I'd take Henry ahead of those three every day, even without Adeyabor.

Are we only going on Europe this season? how can anyone say Utds strikeforce havent been succesful in Europe when RVN goal to games ratio in CL is best in the business and Rooney was suspended for some of the games.

Anyway the reason we went out of Europe is simple, our midfield was not good enough and as a result supply was dreadful up front. Individual errors by an underachieving backline early in the season has cost us in CL and PL.

I have a horrid feeling that at the end of the season we will look back at that terrible middlesborough game and point at it as the game that lost us the Pl.

As regards Utds resurgance claiming it is only because Chelsea arent playing well is not the point, utd are 9 for 9. Also the fact that they are challenging again for the title despite not having one single central midfielder fit, and this being our worst season for injuries in years I think those that rubbish and talk down Utds performance have the sound of bitter ABU's (and its good to hear you all talking about utd again, normal service resumed next season)

Lemlin

MrPillowTalk wrote:

As regards Utds resurgance claiming it is only because Chelsea arent playing well is not the point, utd are 9 for 9. Also the fact that they are challenging again for the title despite not having one single central midfielder fit, and this being our worst season for injuries in years I think those that rubbish and talk down Utds performance have the sound of bitter ABU's (and its good to hear you all talking about utd again, normal service resumed next season)

I admit United have done well but, like I said, this is Chelsea's first blip and it has come just at the right time for United eg. when they are on a winning streak. United still lost to too many teams like Blackburn and Boro this season (teams they shouldn't be losing to) and it says something when Chelsea can go on a blip and still be 7 points ahead.

As regards the striker, the very fact that it is being debated shows that the top strike force in the PL is debatable. United are a good attacking force but I think Arsenal at least match them. For example, have you seen United destroy teams like Middlesborough 7-0 and Villa 5-0 this season? Arsenal are an attacking force that is unmatchable when they swing into action.

Hobart

dannyd20 wrote:

Read an article on Fergies mind-games, I'm not a big fan of Fergie but I've got to admit he's got a gift for winding people up. I don't think it will happen but it would be hilarious to see Mourinho do a 'Keegan' !!




Read here

Could not agree with you more Danny. We have seen this in the past, and we will see this again. I pointed out as much earlier in this thread. Fergie is up to his old tricks again, but I don't think that you can compare Keegan with Jose. Jose is as adept in mind games, if not better than, the old master.

Ruskie4Rent

And keegan is a bit......slow.

iregk

Hobart wrote:

Could not agree with you more Danny. We have seen this in the past, and we will see this again. I pointed out as much earlier in this thread. Fergie is up to his old tricks again, but I don't think that you can compare Keegan with Jose. Jose is as adept in mind games, if not better than, the old master.

Exactly Hobart. Jose is a completely different ball game to Keegan and he will brush off these comments and childish attempts. Fergie will need to step up to the plate if he really wants to take Jose on in this area. He has shown so far that he really got under Wenger and last season got right at Fergie too. If you ask me he is the best of the three of them in this field.

gracehopper

iregk wrote:

Jose is a completely different ball game

Yeah when his side are beaten he makes up stories about the opposition manager having a tea party in the ref's dressing room. A different ball game indeed!

The Muppet

I,m not too sure that Jose is as unflappable as it appears. He has made some strange substitutions of late and totally changed formation for the West Ham game which did work in the end but appeared to be back firing on him for the first half hour.

iregk

gracehopper wrote:

Yeah when his side are beaten he makes up stories about the opposition manager having a tea party in the ref's dressing room. A different ball game indeed!

Making up stories? Frisk said he was in there, Rijkaard said he was in there and the security guard in the camp nou said he was in there as well!!!! So how is that making it up.

Yes he and the club went totally over board in everything and it got ridiculous but I think your using the good oul comedy exaggeration to effect. A tea party no less...

dirkey_wynne

iregk wrote:

Making up stories? Frisk said he was in there, Rijkaard said he was in there and the security guard in the camp nou said he was in there as well!!!! So how is that making it up.

Yes he and the club went totally over board in everything and it got ridiculous but I think your using the good oul comedy exaggeration to effect. A tea party no less...

As far as I recall they admitted they spoke outside the dressing room briefly, not inside.

If as is the case you claim, why did Uefa ban Mourinho?

The Muppet

iregk wrote:

Making up stories? Frisk said he was in there, Rijkaard said he was in there and the security guard in the camp nou said he was in there as well!!!! So how is that making it up.

Yes he and the club went totally over board in everything and it got ridiculous but I think your using the good oul comedy exaggeration to effect. A tea party no less...

At the start Mourinho Claimed he saw Rijkaard enter Frisks dressing room. He later retracted this and admitted he had not actually seen this happen. That sounds like making up stories to me.

gracehopper

i dont remember Rijkaard ever saying he was in the refs dressing room.

The point is i think mourinho is good at deflecting attention away from his team when they're are receiving criticism but as far as mind games are concerned i think he's unproven. In fairness to him he hasnt had to engage in mind games as he holds all the aces domestically. Fergie is trying to plant a seed of doubt in the Chelsea camp. Thats his job, they're what stand in his way of winning the league.
Tapping players up, Being bad mannered not shaking hands after matches and failing to admit you were beaten fair and square isnt mind games. Its just unprofessional. In my book Mourinho's already lost it. He may win this league as its too little too late for United but he'll be pushed all the way next year and if he fails to win the CL next year you can be sure Abramovich will bring someone else in who'll turn his ugly duckling of a team into a swan

RasTa

Hobart wrote:

As a side not I would like to welcome PHB as are new moderator on the soccer forum. I have checked the charter at the top wrt what you can and cannot quote in your postings, I expect he's just editing the rules while I type, as I did not see anything there in this regard.

Could you be anymore petty.... ?
United are the best team in the league at the moment, end of argument.

iregk

dirkey_wynne wrote:

As far as I recall they admitted they spoke outside the dressing room briefly, not inside.

If as is the case you claim, why did Uefa ban Mourinho?

Didn't Uefa not ban him fort starting all this in the first place. Frisk retiring due to threats etc...

Jivin Turkey

gracehopper wrote:

Tapping players up, Being bad mannered not shaking hands after matches and failing to admit you were beaten fair and square isnt mind games. Its just unprofessional.

Are you talking about Mourinho or Ferguson here?

Mitch Connor

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Are you talking about Mourinho or Ferguson here?

i may be a biased man united supporter - but that is funny!:D

iregk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Are you talking about Mourinho or Ferguson here?

Quality post...