Is it a case of weak Welfare Officer......Weak President

gliondar

I gotta say, its not just president i worry about...

I'm so puzzled as to how really WEAK candidates managed to get elected in many races. All the candidates are amicable people but they just seem to have so little vision and ability..... with no charisma or little leadership qualities, as if people "got them" elected rather than they got elected if you know what i mean.
I followed the Trinity elections too and it seems that many of the candiddates I thought were the best lost and from friends who've known the victorious candidates there for years tell me its a incredible what happened.

Could somebody sum up for me in a few lines what happened in those elections?

tbh, i don't really worry about the state of the union, but what's really worry me is whether this is a microcosm of the elections on a national level and whether the people who are in power and everybody seems to love are actually the biggest wasters in the country........ but lovely people:p

I've always thought democracy would surely elect the best but having seen first hand the recent elections I look at politics in a completely different light. i might even start reading up on it and finding out policies to really see which party is the best:eek:

scop

We live in weak societies where we elect weak people, meakish people with no beliefs just like ourselves. Well we might have beliefs but god knows what they are, I doubt he has any real idea either except maybe some general I know democracy is good, if I dont offend anyone I should be OK.

Etc. Etc. Welcome to the modern world. Please choose weekly system of values depending on present company.

Vainglory

beanyb wrote:

The guy is SU welfare officer not a TD what the hell do you expect him to do about laws of the state? You often here people saying that nobody in college cares about the union, why do you think the government would?

You may think a law is obsolete, but that doesnt change the fact that it is still a law.

Have you ever a) Downloaded music b) Burned a CD c) Drunk alcohol underage ?

Oppressive laws regarding the legality of contraception were changed in this country by ordinary women who challenged the law. They weren't TD's either.

Vainglory

Also..

Since people in Ireland have been prosecuted for music file sharing this year, and nobody has EVER been successfully prosecuted under the 1995 abortion Act, it is fair to say that it is more likely for the Union to be prosecuted for illegal file sharing on Union computers than to be prosecuted for the notice on my door. Scaremongering about losing the shops, the bars etc, is quite simply that. SCAREMONGERING.

Should we organise a purge of all illegal music on Union computers (of which there is a lot) in the name of consistency? Condemn our members who download music? Answers on a postcard

Chinafoot

Vainglory wrote:

Have you ever a) Downloaded music b) Burned a CD c) Drunk alcohol underage ?

Oppressive laws regarding the legality of contraception were changed in this country by ordinary women who challenged the law. They weren't TD's either.

Amen to that.

If I go to my welfare officer with an unplanned pregnancy (and before anyone starts with their "but why would you go there?" crap...thats what he's there for!) I would expect all of the options to be presented to me.

The law will never change if we continue to bow down to it because "it's still a law". It's an idiotic, outdated law that needs to change.

UCD set the trend with the coke ban so why not do the same here?

Vainglory

Just to clarify..

While I agree with the points made above, Dan does say that he has information on the clinics in his office for people who ask for it. My problem with this is that it would be incredibly difficult for someone who was either uncomfortable with asking the Welfare Officer in person or indeed for someone who knew him personally to do that. For example, if I needed the information from the Welfare Office, I would not feel comfortable going to Dan and asking for it as we know each other very well, and he knows my boyfriend.

This is why I want the information to appear in the Freshers' Guide. If I receive an undertaking that it will appear there next year, then I will remove the posters.

Chinafoot

Vainglory wrote:

Just to clarify..

While I agree with the points made above, Dan does say that he has information on the clinics in his office for people who ask for it.

This is why I want the information to appear in the Freshers' Guide. If I receive an undertaking that it will appear there next year, then I will remove the posters.

There should be all three to be honest. He should have them in his office, they should be in the freshers guide and they should be visible in the Union corridoor.

*edit* while we're on the subject. Has anyone else noticed the removal of the stickers in the girls toilets which give information on the Marie Stopes clinic? Just curious if this is being removed by staff or students. Some of the graffiti would suggest the latter.

panda100

Abortion clinic are buissness-Just like any working practising surgeons. What the fcku do you think Dan is a doctor referrening patients on to surgeons? No one but a fully qualified trained doctor has the right to refer a patient on to a surgeon.You are doing a very naieve and immature thing by posting those addresses on to your door Jane.

Im saying this as a medical student who for every 1000 cases theres one case that doesnt go quite right.This isnt to add to hysteria around getting surgery.But only doctors now the good surgeons and whats right for the patients.How exactly does a 2nd arts education officer from Ireland have the right to refer patients to good surgeons in a foreign country......Its taking a huge risk and I just think its a dangerous thing to do when its a young girls health at risk.

I appreciate your point Jane on knowing Dan personally.But off the 10,000 students in UCD id say about a hundred would know Dan well if even.This is when he refers you to a kind,considerate nurse in the IFPA,who deals with women and the good surgeons in England every day.Are you really going to stop women from getting the best advice possible from the IFPA just to make it 'easier' for you or one of dans friends to get the addresses of abortion clinics?

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

I'm litterally going to die laughing.
I could have told you all this months ago.

tbh I dont think thats a very good attitude to have,especially form somone who ran for a sabbat position.I wouldnt be laughing if someone I didnt want to get elecetd got elected.I would be quite concerned and doing my best to make sure people got involved in the union next year instead of trying to make a joke out of Dan.

Chinafoot

Hang on a second. Why would Dan stop referring students to the IFPA? That's still an option, I'm sure. Just because contact information is there doesn't mean that its the only option the Welfare Officer is providing.

People have the right to make up their own minds and I think its also slightly insulting for you to assume that girls would go into this lightly. If they go to the Welfare Officer he would obviously provide them with contact information for counsellors, organisations etc to help them with their decision and its repercussions. This doesn't mean he shouldn't provide them with contact information for abortion clinics.

Personally I think it is more responsible for the Welfare Officer to provide the information coupled with information of organisations to help with the emotional and psychological aspect than if some girl who felt she had nowhere to go just looked up an abortion clinic on the net in desperation.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Abortion clinic are buissness-Just like any working practising surgeons. What the fcku do you think Dan is a doctor referrening patients on to surgeons? No one but a fully qualified trained doctor has the right to refer a patient on to a surgeon.You are doing a very naieve and immature thing by posting those addresses on to your door Jane.

Dan has a list of local GPs in his office. Have any of these been vetted independently by the SU to make sure they're all above board? No, but they operate under Irish law, so we have to assume they're alright. And so he can give these names/numbers/addresses out to people.

How is this any different to giving the name and address of a crisis pregnancy agency in Britain, which is operating under British law and verified that way? Just as those GPs are operating under Irish law, that is the only way we have verified legitimacy in either case. And so that is what we do. Rest assured, I haven't given out the addresses and numbers of any backstreet clinics.

panda100 wrote:

Its taking a huge risk and I just think its a dangerous thing to do when its a young girls health at risk..

I find your constant references to "girls" and "young girls" quite amusing, I have to say. Women of all ages and all walks of life avail of abortions for a variety of reasons. Your constant depiction of them as snivelling, scared young girls who are unable to make up their own minds about whether or not to have an abortion is rather facetious.

panda100 wrote:

I appreciate your point Jane on knowing Dan personally.But off the 10,000 students in UCD id say about a hundred would know Dan well if even.This is when he refers you to a kind,considerate nurse in the IFPA,who deals with women and the good surgeons in England every day.Are you really going to stop women from getting the best advice possible from the IFPA just to make it 'easier' for you or one of dans friends to get the addresses of abortion clinics?

Like peachy said, I'm not stopping Dan giving out information about the IFPA. I think they do great work. In fact, the IFPA have been helping me out a lot with regard to legal questions this week. All I want is for Dan also to make available, both verbally and in Union publications, all information regarding options available in crisis pregnancies, including abortion.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that some women do not want or need a "kind, considerate nurse". Some women do not want or need advice from a third party. Women are intelligent beings and some, if not all, are able to make up their own minds about this stuff. As such, information about these clinics should be available. Why should women be compelled to go through a third party regarding such a sensitive issue, as you seem to think they should be? God forbid they might make up their minds on their own!!

I'm not saying that every woman doesn't want "advice" from a "kind, considerate nurse". I'm just saying that SOME definitely wouldn't, and have confidence in their own maturity and ability to make decisions about their own body without having their hands held through it. One of them is behind this keyboard.

Vainglory

To further clarify (sorry, I keep forgetting things)..

In SPUC vs Grogan, it was never clarified whether or not SU guides were unsolicited information (and then illegal under the 1995 act, or solicited information, which would make them legal under the 1995 act).

Reference -“Abortion and the Law” James Kingston, Ivana Bacik 1997 p196-197 - says that the issue of whether SU guides came under the act was never resolved by the Supreme Court in SPUC vs. Grogan

Therefore, the argument about whether it would in fact be illegal to put this information in the Freshers' Guide at least is only argument between people with different legal opinions, and not based in fact.

The only way to find out if it was legal or not would be if a test case against UCDSU was taken for publishing the information in the Freshers' Guide. Only then could the courts make a judgement and only then would we know for certain.

However, another thing is that I CANNOT BE 'SUED' or dealt with by anyone other than the State regarding this issue. This is pure criminal law, and can only be dealt with by the Gardai, etc etc. Youth Defence cannot sue me, or UCDSU. Neither can SPUC. Only the DPP can authorise a prosecution (i.e. pro-lifers can't bring it directly, which they used to do before the referendum/act came in.)

The likelihood, I think we'll all agree, of the DPP bringing a case against students for giving out abortion information which would create such uproar, political fallout and disastrous consequences for the state if they lost, is slim to none.

Although I almost wish they would, so we can challenge this unfair law properly.

anonymous_joe

Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...

singingstranger

anonymous_joe wrote:

Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...

Hence Dan saying that we'd be risking the shops by going to court over it...

panda100

peachypants wrote:

Hang on a second. Why would Dan stop referring students to the IFPA? That's still an option, I'm sure. Just because contact information is there doesn't mean that its the only option the Welfare Officer is providing.

People have the right to make up their own minds and I think its also slightly insulting for you to assume that girls would go into this lightly. If they go to the Welfare Officer he would obviously provide them with contact information for counsellors, organisations etc to help them with their decision and its repercussions. This doesn't mean he shouldn't provide them with contact information for abortion clinics.

Personally I think it is more responsible for the Welfare Officer to provide the information coupled with information of organisations to help with the emotional and psychological aspect than if some girl who felt she had nowhere to go just looked up an abortion clinic on the net in desperation.

I never suggested girls/women/females/sheilas/whatever you want to call us would go into an abortion lightly.Au contraire I dont think anyone would go into surgery lightly.
Having gp numbers and addresses stocked is grossly different to a surgeons addresses.As you know these days everything is run for profit. If I was getting an intravenous medical procedure done which involved going inside my body I would want to get the best most qualified surgeon there is.

I respect that you think it is responsible for the welfare officer to provide this information.I have outlined numerous time why it is irresponsible.We are not all the same independent, confident able people that would be able to deal with a crisis pregnancy in a treally mature way.The system in UCD really does protect those very very small minority who will do something they may regret in a crisis pregnancy situation.I appreciate that for most independent and capable women on camous they can get addresses off Dan and deal with it maturely with absolutley no repercussions.
However,we have to remember that everyone in this college is different.The majority of my class are from abroad,be that malaysia,india,Africa or Alabama.Maybe thet havent been given the same sex education or are scared to tell anyone about their pregnancy and think even if they go to the ifpa that there parents will find out.If I was in college in India I would be frightened in a crisis pregnancy cos I dont know the law over there and i sure as hell wouldnt want my parents findng out I had an abortion.
So what do the small minority who arent able to handle a crisis pregnancy by themselves do? They open the freshers guide get an address of an abortion clinic and go through it all alone,because they dont know any better.This is where a middle person like Dan is needed so desperatly. No showing abortion addresses so publicly is protecting those small minority.

I appreciate if people disagree with me here.This is just the concerned,practical and caring medical student in me coming out here:)

singingstranger

panda100 wrote:

This is just the concerned,practical and caring medical student in me coming out here:)

/me imagines waking up from a coma to see Dr Panda at the foot of my bed...

Scraggs

Singingstranger I dont think this is the place to air your fantasies


*runs

Vainglory

anonymous_joe wrote:

Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...

Well, obviously the Students' Union wouldn't take a test case against itself. The DPP would have to decide to prosecute for a test case to happen at all. And, as has been shown by their complete inaction when faced with pro-choice campaigners handing out such information outside the Dáil and the Department of Justice week in, week out, to members of an Garda Siochána...They don't want to go near the issue with a barge pole. Because if they DID, and we won, they'd have to change the legislation, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

Elisa....sigh...I'm not saying that Dan should ONLY provide these addresses. Just that he should INCLUDE it in the information. IFPA, fine. CURA, fine. Marie Stopes, fine. Clinics, fine.

singingstranger

Look, maybe I'm only skimming at this stage but I reckon this just boils down to a fundamental difference of opinion at this stage: whether you think it's not too impersonal to merely have contact details available on a door, or whether you think they should be only delivered on a one-to-one basis by the Welfare Officer.

Personally, while I know that women are intelligent creatures that are well able to make up their own minds, you can't help but acknowledge that a crisis pregnancy is probably one of the hardest and most traumatic experiences any girl will ever have to face.

You have to ask yourself whether you're okay with letting such a girl - and let's for the sake of the example say that she's comfortable with going to visit the Welfare Officer - go into the Union corridor on the way to the Welfare Office, see details for abortion clinics on a door, take down a phone number, turn around and phone up the clinic herself without giving the Welfare Officer the opportunity to calmly talk her through her four options. Personally if the stuff was on Dan's door I think it'd be a very unwelcoming sight that would give the impression of "nah, I don't care if you're pregnant, here are some phone numbers to make you not pregnant". And that's not to mention how deeply offensive that would be to the substantive segment of the student body who are pro-life and who would be deeply shocked and offended by seeing such details displayed so publically and impersonally.

ferdi

how about letting him have a go at being president before y'all go shooting yeer mouths off:rolleyes:

Ms Horgan-Jones is on the same 'team' as Mr Hayden - Maybe she should have gone for the welfare position in the SU elections instead of acting the maggot now. concentrate on your own jobs folks.

anonymous_joe

One of the reasons the DPP ever did the 'X' case was because of one pro-life crusader behind the scenes...

People on the other side feel just as strongly about the issue sometimes.

I would reckon you're probably right though.

Chinafoot

panda100 wrote:

So what do the small minority who arent able to handle a crisis pregnancy by themselves do? They open the freshers guide get an address of an abortion clinic and go through it all alone,because they dont know any better.

Well I would assume that along with any information on abortion clinics there would also be information for third party organisations such at Cura etc.

Abortion would hardly be the only option presented.

Vainglory

singingstranger wrote:

Look, maybe I'm only skimming at this stage but I reckon this just boils down to a fundamental difference of opinion at this stage: whether you think it's not too impersonal to merely have contact details available on a door, or whether you think they should be only delivered on a one-to-one basis by the Welfare Officer.

Personally, while I know that women are intelligent creatures that are well able to make up their own minds, you can't help but acknowledge that a crisis pregnancy is probably one of the hardest and most traumatic experiences any girl will ever have to face.

You have to ask yourself whether you're okay with letting such a girl - and let's for the sake of the example say that she's comfortable with going to visit the Welfare Officer - go into the Union corridor on the way to the Welfare Office, see details for abortion clinics on a door, take down a phone number, turn around and phone up the clinic herself without giving the Welfare Officer the opportunity to calmly talk her through her four options. Personally if the stuff was on Dan's door I think it'd be a very unwelcoming sight that would give the impression of "nah, I don't care if you're pregnant, here are some phone numbers to make you not pregnant". And that's not to mention how deeply offensive that would be to the substantive segment of the student body who are pro-life and who would be deeply shocked and offended by seeing such details displayed so publically and impersonally.

Gav, as I've said, I don't want them on my door. I want them in the Freshers' Guide, displayed alongside any other information about options in crisis pregnancy that the SU deems appropriate. Then, people can look at them in private and read it all without being conspicuous. Even people who don't feel comfortable going to Dan and asking for it. But of course, people can still do it that way if they want.

If I get an undertaking that it will be in the Freshers' Guide at least, I will take the notices down.

Vainglory

Also, this might give people who think that nobody should ever break the law, no matter what it is, some food for thought.

Extract from the autobiography of Nell McCafferty, who was aboard the “Contraceptive Train” which started the process that eventually resulted in advances and liberalisation for contraceptive legislation in Ireland.

“Shortly afterwards we staged the demonstration for which the Irishwomen’s Liberation Movement is most famous: we took the “Contraceptive Train” from Dublin to Belfast and back, illegally importing contraceptives into the Republic. It was almost a year to the day since I had objected to a member of the Northern Ireland civil rights group waving a condom at the border and sneering that French letters were illegal in Dublin, and I saw it as a chance to draw the eyes of the world to Ireland and its punitive laws against the use of birth control: we would go to Belfast, purchase contraceptives, show them to customs officers in Dublin and challenge them to arrest and charge us, or let us pass, thereby proving the law both hypocritical and obsolete.”

Who thinks she was wrong to break the law? Hands up, nice and high.

mad lad

Abortion clinic are buissness-Just like any working practising surgeons.

if this is your main concern then work with alliance for chocie or BODY for free, safe, legal abortion provided to anyone who requires it.


http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=2270
http://www.struggle.ws/ireland/choice/index.html

mad lad

ucdsu information on abortion will be distributed regardless of what dan hayden thinks, by union members.

ferdi

on the point of information being printed in the freshers guide:

1) its too late now so stop moaning and run for welfare officer next year.
2)no one cares about the freshers guide, people look at on the first day then bin it.

Vainglory

ferdi wrote:

how about letting him have a go at being president before y'all go shooting yeer mouths off:rolleyes:

Ms Horgan-Jones is on the same 'team' as Mr Hayden - Maybe she should have gone for the welfare position in the SU elections instead of acting the maggot now. concentrate on your own jobs folks.

LOL. How are we on the same team? Me and Dan only speak when we absolutely have to (ie, when it's about work).

And it's not a matter of concentrating on my own job. A huge part of my job is, as a Vice President of the Union, protecting and upholding Union policy. And that is what I'm doing, since our Welfare Officer won't.

Vainglory

ferdi wrote:

on the point of information being printed in the freshers guide:

1) its too late now so stop moaning and run for welfare officer next year.
2)no one cares about the freshers guide, people look at on the first day then bin it.

Not too late for next year. And it's not just the Welfare Officer who's charged with making this info available, it's the whole Union. I am a member of the Union.

You never know who might care about the Freshers' Guide if they knew that this information was in it.

singingstranger

Vainglory wrote:

I want them in the Freshers' Guide, displayed alongside any other information about options in crisis pregnancy that the SU deems appropriate.

Isn't that the same thing though, except they don't even get as far as the corridor? Say the girl I talked about above is going through the Fresher's Guide looking for Dan/Barry's phone number to make an appointment, and come across the details for clinics. And go ahead without letting the Officer talk them through their four options. It's very cold, and almost gives the Welfare Officer carte blanche to go away and do whatever they like in the office time normally used with personal pregnancy cases.