Private Speed Scameras (again)

Gatster

This follows reading unison.ie this morning...

First off, and excuse my language, but Martin Cullen is Cu~t of the highest order. Never had a problem with Garda speed checks (don't like them but they are an acceptable fact) as they fulfil a genuine role, however this private speed scamera really is beyond the pale. I have no problem with the much needed drive for road safety but this blatant back hander cash-cow fiddle has really got me. As for the blag of 'freeing up Garda resources', does it really take 4 of them to handle a speed camera (spotted near at the Donabate/Swords M50 exit the other week)??? Nothing against the Garda, but it's 2006, they should be managed properly, and blatant corruption of this nature shouldn't be happening (although see M50 toll for a further example).

Does anyone know what type of camera they are expected to use? I intend to purchase every type of jamming/detector gizmo to prevent me from having to give money to these charlatans, no matter how illegal

spockety

Eh, there is a really really simple way to avoid being nabbed by speed cameras!

do you want to know what it is...?

...?


..?





Don't break the speed limit! I guarantee you will never get a fine.

zuutroy

spockety wrote:

Eh, there is a really really simple way to avoid being nabbed by speed cameras!

do you want to know what it is...?

...?


..?





Don't break the speed limit! I guarantee you will never get a fine.

That all well and good, but you know they're gonna be in locations where you're 'tricked' into breaking. eg the Lucan road inbound where the M4 turns into the N4 with almost no warning or change in road quality yet the speed limit drops 40kmh with cameras 200yds later.
Saying don't break the limit is just impractical in a lot of cases in the city. The 50kmh limit is absurd on a lot of roads, and event the most cautious of drivers will find themselves exceeding this if they look away from the speedo for a while. It just defies common sense....It's like saying, don't cross the road unless you're at a set of lights, just not practical

Stephen

Privatised speed cameras = speed cameras for profit, not safety. F**k that. This calls for a vigilante spraypaint-the-lenses campaign

egan007

spockety wrote:

Eh, there is a really really simple way to avoid being nabbed by speed cameras!

do you want to know what it is...?

...?


..?





Don't break the speed limit! I guarantee you will never get a fine.

WOW is it that open shut?
It's another child of micheal mc dowell

declanoneill

Can you give a link to the unison article, I can't seem to find it.

As I understand it, the private cameras will be less of a money making racket then the cops doing it now

1) They will be told where to go, so no sitting on the M50 unless they have been told to do it specificly
2) No Quotas, it's no skin off there nose if the sit on blind corners and catch no one (but everyone slows down, thus hopefully reducing the death toll)

Assuming they're not told to go sit on some fish in a barrell trap, I can see this being a great thing to happen. Of course it could be easily fecked up, but so far it seems like the plan is good.

Stephen

Depends who operates it I guess. If you get similar scum to those that operate the dublin clampers, we're all f**ked.

Anan1

Stephen wrote:

Depends who operates it I guess. If you get similar scum to those that operate the dublin clampers, we're all f**ked.

Actually, I think the Dublin clampers do a great job. If you don't pay, you're pretty likely to get clamped. Therefore, unlike in the old days, spaces are generally available. Isn't that the way it should be?

spockety

zuutroy wrote:

That all well and good, but you know they're gonna be in locations where you're 'tricked' into breaking. eg the Lucan road inbound where the M4 turns into the N4 with almost no warning or change in road quality yet the speed limit drops 40kmh with cameras 200yds later.

"almost" no warning, or no warning at all?
If there are not enough warning signs, that's not going to be the fault of the camera operators, and you should get on to your local authority to ensure that they plaster the road with the correct signage if it's inadequate.

zuutroy wrote:

Saying don't break the limit is just impractical in a lot of cases in the city. The 50kmh limit is absurd on a lot of roads, and event the most cautious of drivers will find themselves exceeding this if they look away from the speedo for a while. It just defies common sense....It's like saying, don't cross the road unless you're at a set of lights, just not practical

It might be impractical, but it's the law, and you can hardly claim ignorance of it. And even if you could, it would be no excuse.

Absurd speed limits are not the fault of the Gardai, or future private camera operators. They are the fault of government, local or national. You need to lobby the people who create the limits, not complain about existing ones.

People banging on whinging about speed 'traps', or speed cameras etc, are essentially people who feel aggrieved that there is a chance they'll get caught breaking the law.

By all means speed if you want to, but don't complain when you get caught, it's not like you weren't aware of the possible consequences.

maidhc

spockety wrote:

It might be impractical, but it's the law, and you can hardly claim ignorance of it. And even if you could, it would be no excuse.

When a person's car is stolen they know there is practically ZERO chance of either it being returned intact or the criminal being caught. The same generally applies if they are burgled, mugged, or scammed. High talk about upholding the law often rings hollow when you can be put of the road for speeding or being in the wrong lane sooner than joyriding.

It is unsurprising then they are disgusted when extra laws and enforcment techniques are introduced which do little more than keep honest people honest.

spockety

I'm not sure I see the problem with keeping honest people honest!

From what you're saying, the problem isn't with speed camera's, it's with enforcement of other areas of the law.

maidhc

spockety wrote:

I'm not sure I see the problem with keeping honest people honest!

The problem is that they tend to be a soft target for the "crackdown" of the week.

spockety wrote:

From what you're saying, the problem isn't with speed camera's, it's with enforcement of other areas of the law.

I know my life (In general) is more regulated now that it was 5 years ago, and I resent that.

Anan1

maidhc wrote:

I know my life (In general) is more regulated now that it was 5 years ago, and I resent that.

With regard to driving, this is so true. Ten years ago, one could pretty much drive as fast as one liked. If stopped, then as long as your attitude was good, you could be confident that the matter would be left at a slap on the wrist. I miss those days too, although I do appreciate that things had to change.

spockety

In fairness, it is possible to do extreme speeds in Ireland to get it out of your system. Just go and do a track day every so often.

Idleater

zuutroy wrote:

...eg the Lucan road inbound where the M4 turns into the N4 with almost no warning or change in road quality yet the speed limit drops 40kmh with cameras 200yds later.

Now to be quite fair, on the section of road you refer to:

• there is a 2km motorway ending sign.
• there is a 500m motorway ending sign.
• there is a new 80kmph speed limit sigh along with a motorway finished sign.
• The speed camera is almost 1 km after the end of the motorway.
• there are so many drivers on that road now that know that speed camera that "everyone" brakes coming up to it so you are bound to notice that at the very least.
• that road continues at 80kmph I think as far as the m50 bridge (though it may drop to 60kmph just for the Newcastle lights).

On the general topic of Privatised Speed cameras, I have driven in England/Wales with their privatised speed cameras and found that they are so obvious (bright Yellow) that you can easily pick them out in the distance. So even if they do put them at money making fish in a barrel locations, you can see them and drive by them at the correct speed.

There they are mostly placed coming up to dangerous junctions/corners so people are going slowly at these locations. This means that they have served their purpose.

I suppose here, they will be painted olive green or grey, but Im sure it will be only a matter of hours before there is a list of all the locations on the internet.


L.

Boggle

On the general topic of Privatised Speed cameras, I have driven in England/Wales with their privatised speed cameras and found that they are so obvious (bright Yellow) that you can easily pick them out in the distance. So even if they do put them at money making fish in a barrel locations, you can see them and drive by them at the correct speed

As far as I'm aware they have to be justified before you can place one there (e.g. x amount of serious accidents in the location in the past year. Also in England you are allowed use detection equipment under the argument that if the camera's are to warn people of a dangerous stretch of road they are entitled to fair warning.

Also they are all over the place on roadworks - even on the stretches of motorway that have been coned off for weeks with no works ongoing.

Also, seeing as I'm at it - they have the effect of removing police presence from the roads so the only crime you might get caught committing is no speeding...

(See safespeed website for a list of arguments against the effectiveness of camera's)

1) They will be told where to go, so no sitting on the M50 unless they have been told to do it specificly
2) No Quotas, it's no skin off there nose if the sit on blind corners and catch no one (but everyone slows down, thus hopefully reducing the death toll)

Firstly, the yare not a sworn body but will still be able to effectively remove your license. Secondly, you would never place a camera on a blind corner as people will either take their eyes off the road or jam on the brakes for (as far as the car behind is concerned) no apparent reason.

The_Magoo

nereid wrote:

[*] that road continues at 80kmph I think as far as the m50 bridge (though it may drop to 60kmph just for the Newcastle lights).


On the general topic of Privatised Speed cameras, I have driven in England/Wales with their privatised speed cameras and found that they are so obvious (bright Yellow) that you can easily pick them out in the distance. So even if they do put them at money making fish in a barrel locations, you can see them and drive by them at the correct speed.




L.

The newcastle junction is 80kph, and with regards bright yellow cameras, thats because UK legislation states that fixed cameras must be visable, no such legistation here, so you can bet they will be blended into the hedge where no one can see the damn things. Note that I do abid by the speed limit, but being only human, my speed can vary between 95kph and 105kph on a 100kph road, as I tend to watch the road, gauging conditions and traffic, andtrying to be as safe as possible, but if I am travelling slightly faster pass on of these cameras, I might get two points, unlike the fecker who knows where the camera is, waits till he/she is past it before opening it up, while on the phone, and tuning the radio in. Bet the camera doesnt catch them!

declanoneill

Boggle wrote:

Firstly, the yare not a sworn body but will still be able to effectively remove your license. Secondly, you would never place a camera on a blind corner as people will either take their eyes off the road or jam on the brakes for (as far as the car behind is concerned) no apparent reason.

I'd like any joe soap to be able to take away someones license if and when it was warrented. It's not like they won't have evidence of the speeding. I think there is a lot of potential loop holes, but I still think the scheme has a very good chance of being far better then what we currently have.

The example of a blind corner I just pulled out of the air, the point (*groan*) still stands.

elexes

if there is a seperate body to watch over the amount of camera's in place and the places they are installed id be all for it . but then i would expect the guards to be able to tell when a riot is going to happen

Boggle

the point (*groan*) still stands

Wah wah...:D

I'd like any joe soap to be able to take away someones license if and when it was warrented. It's not like they won't have evidence of the speeding. I think there is a lot of potential loop holes, but I still think the scheme has a very good chance of being far better then what we currently have.

They'll have proof... ish. Currently garda speed camera's are prima facia - will this apply to the new camera's or will they need to provide cal cert's? If so who will audit them and ensure that they are operating correctly? Its exactly as you describe - a web of potential loopholes/unforeseen problems that I do not have the faith in our govt to close off properly.
Thing is, do you trust the govt sufficiently not to use this as a little revenue generator under the slogan speed kills??

declanoneill

Boggle wrote:

They'll have proof... ish. Currently garda speed camera's are prima facia

This is the first loop hole that popped into my mind

Boggle wrote:

I do not have the faith in our govt to close off properly.
Thing is, do you trust the govt sufficiently not to use this as a little revenue generator under the slogan speed kills??

Honestly, I can't say I have all that much faith in them either, but I'm hoping against hope. As for revenue, the government has come out and said it will not use it as a revenue generator and will not have fish in a barrell checks. The government wouldn't lie to us

Gatster

On the general topic of Privatised Speed cameras, I have driven in England/Wales with their privatised speed cameras

Erm, there aren't any private companies operating speed cameras in the UK AFAIK, they are operated by the individual councils. If they are painted a colour it doesn't mean they are private, it means the council came in for flak about trying to disguise them...

http://www.ukspeedcameras.co.uk/

Idleater

Gatster wrote:

Erm, there aren't any private companies operating speed cameras in the UK AFAIK, they are operated by the individual councils. If they are painted a colour it doesn't mean they are private, it means the council came in for flak about trying to disguise them...

http://www.ukspeedcameras.co.uk/

Touché!

However, the amount of them, and their placement is akin to the amount that are reported to be installed here and also the rumours as to their placement.

If they are "hidden", they will be found out and listed very quickly, that is if their locations are not already listed at construction stage.

There should really be no complaints about fixed speed cameras to be honest. If they are in "stupid" locations for revenue collection, they are well reported (eg, N4 Lucan) and thus the penalty be avoided by slowing down momentarily.

On the other hand, if they are in "sensible" locations and people slow down accordingly, then they are doing the task for which they were intended.

L.

Ayashii

The bill that the cabinet approved yesterday talks about "private operators can be engaged in the provision and operation of cameras and other equipment used for the detection of a range of traffic offences including those relating to speeding. The Gardai will determine the location of cameras."

Gatster

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MrPudding

Gatster wrote:

To add to my original rant it's laughable they are claiming some sort of victory because they've pulled nearly 4000 drivers since April 1st. The points system does't prevent road death (did they not learn the first time?).



http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1596932&issue_id=13913

How do you know it doesn't save lives? It is generally accepted that the drop in fatalities immediately after the first introduction of penatly points was due to peoples fear (misplaced) the the gardai would actually start enforcing the rules of the road.

Speeding aside, 79 drivers done for crossing a continuous white line? Splendid. Hopefully they will think twice about doing it in the future and avoid hitting a car coming in the oposite direction.

700 for not wearing seatbelt? Excellent. Maybe they will wear them in the future and not get put through the windscreen of their car if they are involved in an incident.

If there is enforcement it will work. It will work for 2 reasons:

1) People who currently break the law will think twice because they see an increased chance of being punished. Most people do not want to get caught doing something wrong and only do so because the chance of getting caught is so slight.

2) People who don't give an FCUK will get caught lots of time and will eventually be banned. Result? Dangerous driver off the road. Some of them will continue to drive while banned I hear you cry. No problem. You see proper enforcement can even deal with this. If you continue to drive while banned you will get caught. If you continue to do it you will be put in prison. Result? Dangerous driver off the road, it just took a little longer.


It has been said many times before: Enforcement is the key.*

MrP







*Along with driver education and perhaps a change in our society's attitude in general.

Boggle

Speeding aside, 79 drivers done for crossing a continuous white line? Splendid. Hopefully they will think twice about doing it in the future and avoid hitting a car coming in the oposite direction.

Trouble is the white lines are now everywhere, even where there is no need. peopl in general do not have a problems in following safety rules but can find it difficult when those rules are incorrectly applied.
This is part of the problem with speeding - so many roads are given a speed limit below what we naturally find to be a safe speed that a culture of ignoring posted limits has evolved. The end result being that the young learn from the old to ignore limits without having the experience to properly judge an appropriate speed. (A theory at least!)

In short no one has a problem obeying laws that are well applied but poor application leads to apathy.

Alun

Boggle wrote:

Trouble is the white lines are now everywhere, even where there is no need.

Hear, hear! An R-road I use quite frequently has suddenly developed a whole rash of the things in places where they're not needed. Most of them are single white lines, where in many cases a dashed/solid line combo would be a better choice.

For example, you come round a bend or over a hump onto a reasonably long straight stretch where you could otherewise overtake easily, but oh no, there's a solid white line for another 100m or so, presumably for the benefit of traffic coming in the other direction to tell them not to overtake before the aforementioned bend/hump. No sign of the arrows you see in the UK everywhere telling you to pull back over to the left hand side of the road just before this happens though.

KerranJast

If the private speed cameras bill goes ahead as planned it will be a loss making operation as the companies will be paid a fixed fee not a percentage of fines so there's no incentive for them to catch lots of soft targets. The Gardai will also be able to designate where cameras will be set up. Hopefully they will also introduce the twin camera systems like France where you are timed over a distance between the cameras and if you average over the limit you get fined. Stops idiots bombing along, slowing down for the fixed single cam and bombing on again. Hopefully they will put visible cameras on black spots (where the road should be changed anyway).

Gatster

How do you know it doesn't save lives?

Road deaths have risen, even with the existence of penalty points, that is a fact. At their launch penalty points were vaunted as the saviour of road safety.

As you stress, enforcement (of road safety) is the key, but not handing out penalty points. There's a thread elsewhere here regarding someone being pulled for the white line offence (which is laughable in this case) as if the OP's description of the situation is correct, he was done by an over zealous copper probably meeting quotas (which no doubt exist somewhere for the new offences), which brings me nicely to the point of attitude. The attitude of the both Garda and road users need to change, as you say :eek:

netwhizkid

I think myself penalty points are a waste of time, I blame the fact that our roads are amongst the worst in the road. add to that a manual gearbox culture (Automatics being safer) and is it any wonder that hundreds are getting killed.