Hogan Vs HHH

gimmick · 12-04-2006 1:05pm #1

Right, no one will ever argue that Hogan is the biggest star pro wrestling ever had. In his prime, he drew like no one, and was seen as being almost superhuman. Even thouse who didnt watch wrestling knew all about Hogan. In short, he was an American hero.

The reason i started this thread is because people love thinking they are in the know, and know exactly who held who back etc etc etc. The 2 names that alays pop up immediately when talking about this sort of 'backstage politics' are Hogan and Hunter.

Now the question I am asking, is who has been more guilty of this over the years, and why you think this.

merlinsmerryman · 12-04-2006 1:25pm

HHH has been world champion 10 times and this is even after he had a King of the Ring victory taken away from him for breaking character when Hall and Nash left yet he still went on to win the title 10 times!! Cann't deny that this was in no small part to him being married to the boss daughter can we? Yet on the other side there is Hogan a man so self absorbed that he never once did "the job" for anyone got carried through matches with The Rock and Michaels long after he should have been allowed in a ring and now he is trying t taint Stone Cold's legacy by trying to force him into a match with him at WMXIII. In fairness to HHH he has gone out and done the job for people i.e Ric Flair and some would argue even Cena at WMXII. So I'd have to say that Hogan is the biggest culprit of using his sway backstage.

castagnoli · 12-04-2006 1:35pm

Hogan for sure. Look at his time in WCW. Him and ****ing Kevin Nash are ten times worse than HHH. If Hogan wasnt such an egomaniac then WCW would arguably still be afloat these days. Triple H just put Cena over at WM, and Benjamin on a number of occasions last year. The differance between the two is that HHH knows whats good for the overall product, Hogan just wants whats best for himself

gimmick · 12-04-2006 1:53pm

My two cents on this matter are simple - HHH, has consistently put ovver new main eventers for years, Hogan on the other hand, put over The Giant in WCW and Brock in WWE.

Hogan held Curt Hennig and Ted DiBiase back from winning the title in the 1980s. He refused to job to Bret Hart. He took the steam out of Ric Flair Royal Rumble win (the year it was for the title), by eliminating Syd after Syd had eliminated Hogan. Previously to this, he took limelight away from The Ultimate Warrior at WM6, by being 'gracious' in defeat and passing the belt to him, taking all the plaudits.

He went to WcW and caused havoc by refusing to job to Jeff Jarrett, which led to an infamous shoot by Russo about his creative control (it was a worked shoot, but the bad feeling was tangible). he held back more talent in WcW than anyone cares to count, namely Booker, Jarrett, Benoit to name but a few.

He comes back to WWE, 'puts over' The Rock. Now, The Rock couldnt have been more over going into this fued, and had done it all, so he certainly didnt need Hogans help. Apparently Hogan pushed for the win here, but for the first time, Vince stood firm. He went on to defeat HHH for a title run, which sparingly, lasted only a few weeks.

Skip forward, his only fued of note was against Vince, which was just crap, then he was gone. That is, until he came back, made Hassan look bad, though thats not Hogans fault, thats the fault of the writers, and goes over HBK, in the most ridiculous end to a match in pro wrestling history.

HHH on the other hand, fought his way to the top, even after being buried after the Curtain Call incident. Sure he has held people back, and has used his backstage position to considerable advantage. But look at what he has done for peoples careers. Like it or lump it, but Austin benefitted big time from his fueds with HHH. The Rock had a few memorable rounds with him also, and in both cases, moreso for Austin, HHH was the loser. he also fueded with Rock in the mid card regions earlier on and helped put Rock on track.

As a main eventer, he has helped Benoits career, just by doing the job, after a great build up. He elevated Orton to the main event scene also, albeit too quickly. I know people will say its only because they are buddies, which is no longer the truth according to gossip sites, but the fact of the matter is that Orton was always going to be pushed heavily as wwe love the whole 3rd generation thing. He put over batista to a huge degree by losing 3 consecutive PPVs to him. Look at how over Batista became almost as a direct result.

In short, while both are guilty of selfishness, HHH has done more for others careers than Hogan ever did. HHH has done whats right for the business, Hogan did what was right for him (as pointed out above). Certainly, HHH has taken the lions share of the spotlight in recent years, but if he wasn't good enough, he couldn't maintain it. Hogans legacy would have been alot better had he done the job more often, and not hogging the spotlight at all times.

castagnoli · 12-04-2006 2:16pm

^^Good post!
Have you read the Death of WCW book? Written by the guys from WrestleCrap. They go overboard a bit criticising Hogan but the period when he was booking was the beginning of the end for the company, so its probably justified.
Kevin Nash booking himself to end Goldbergs undefeated streak was probably the worst thing that has ever happened in wrestling.

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-04-2006 2:55pm

gimmick wrote:

My two cents on this matter are simple - HHH, has consistently put ovver new main eventers for years, Hogan on the other hand, put over The Giant in WCW and Brock in WWE.

First of all I think it's difficult to compare any wrestler to triple H when Triple H is in a position that most wrestlers could only dream of - married into the boss' family and able to cement his legacy in any way he sees fit.

gimmick wrote:

Previously to this, he took limelight away from The Ultimate Warrior at WM6, by being 'gracious' in defeat and passing the belt to him, taking all the plaudits.

Eh? That's one of the most fondly remembered angles and was designed to be a show of sportsmanship. It was the planned ending according to Warrior who disputes Hogan's claim that he did it on the spur of the moment.

gimmick wrote:

He went to WcW and caused havoc by refusing to job to Jeff Jarrett, which led to an infamous shoot by Russo about his creative control (it was a worked shoot, but the bad feeling was tangible).

How do you know it was a worked shoot?

gimmick wrote:

He comes back to WWE, 'puts over' The Rock. Now, The Rock couldnt have been more over going into this fued, and had done it all, so he certainly didnt need Hogans help. Apparently Hogan pushed for the win here, but for the first time, Vince stood firm. He went on to defeat HHH for a title run, which sparingly, lasted only a few weeks.

Where did you hear that Hogan pushed for the win?

gimmick wrote:

Skip forward, his only fued of note was against Vince, which was just crap, then he was gone. That is, until he came back, made Hassan look bad, though thats not Hogans fault, thats the fault of the writers, and goes over HBK, in the most ridiculous end to a match in pro wrestling history.

In skipping forward you left out the fact that he tapped out to Kurt Angle at King of the Ring 2002. His feud with Vince was not crap in my view and he had other notable feuds - Triple H, Undertaker, Y2J, The Rock (again, and who won that one?)

gimmick wrote:

HHH on the other hand, fought his way to the top, even after being buried after the Curtain Call incident. Sure he has held people back, and has used his backstage position to considerable advantage. But look at what he has done for peoples careers. Like it or lump it, but Austin benefitted big time from his fueds with HHH. The Rock had a few memorable rounds with him also, and in both cases, moreso for Austin, HHH was the loser. he also fueded with Rock in the mid card regions earlier on and helped put Rock on track.

He had a big win over Austin at No Way Out in 2001 and he went over The Rock at WM16 - one of the few men in history to retain at WM. Both he and HBK also pushed for Vince to do the Montreal screw job so while earlier you acknowledged that Hogan held Bret back, at least he didn't try to destroy the man's legacy.

gimmick wrote:

As a main eventer, he has helped Benoits career, just by doing the job, after a great build up.

Yeah Benoit's doing great, isn't he? In the US title scene and I heard he lost to Mark Henry at a House Show. Thanks a bunch Triple H!

gimmick wrote:

He elevated Orton to the main event scene also, albeit too quickly. I know people will say its only because they are buddies, which is no longer the truth according to gossip sites, but the fact of the matter is that Orton was always going to be pushed heavily as wwe love the whole 3rd generation thing.

Orton was a disaster in general and a classic example of politics ruining wrestling. Of course, what do you do when one of your buddies isn't up to scrath to win the Rumble and main event WM? Why, you have your other buddy win the Rumble and main event WM!

gimmick wrote:

He put over batista to a huge degree by losing 3 consecutive PPVs to him. Look at how over Batista became almost as a direct result.

In short, while both are guilty of selfishness, HHH has done more for others careers than Hogan ever did. HHH has done whats right for the business, Hogan did what was right for him (as pointed out above). Certainly, HHH has taken the lions share of the spotlight in recent years, but if he wasn't good enough, he couldn't maintain it. Hogans legacy would have been alot better had he done the job more often, and not hogging the spotlight at all times.

Fair enough Triple H has in recent times shown a willingness to not only put over others but take himself out of the title scene, as he did for much of 2005, however to compare him to Hogan is in my opinion pointless as Triple H has more control over his legacy than anyone.

In wrestling, as Bret Hart has shown, legacy is so important. Yes Hogan has gone to great legnths to protect his (and I feel he should want to put over others including Austin) however this is a guy who was booked to lose to Billy Kidman in WCW. Wouldn't you be protective of your legacy when you've put up with things like that?

Triple H can put over Funaki if he wants yet he still has the influence to go from that to the next minute turning himself into Goldberg and running over everyone. He has ENORMOUS clout.

Ultimately history will judge Triple H and the man has time on his side. Look out Nature Boy!

Fozzy · 12-04-2006 3:02pm

I'd agree with the posts here. Hogan worked himself into a position (arguably undeservedly) where he could throw his weight around as much as he wanted, to the detriment of the product. HHH has worked a lot harder to be in a similar position, but for the most part, he's done what's best for WWE

HHH has put on a lot more great matches than Hogan and delivered a lot more great promos, so even if he did play the politics game to the extent of Hogan, I could probably forgive him a bit more. I wouldn't be in total support of HHH, as he had a good few one-sided feuds over the last few years, but this has furthered his character, and made it meant more when someone did eventually beat him for the title

Fozzy · 12-04-2006 3:21pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

How do you know it was a worked shoot?

The first part of it, when Jarrett lay down and Hogan pinned him, was planned. When Russo berated Hogan on the mic afterwards, that was a shoot. Hogan sued him for that, saying he went too far in belittling his character

I think a lot of people overestimate just how much power HHH has backstage in WWE. Do you really think that if HHH decided he wanted to hold the title for the next 5 years and not put anyone over, even remotely, that Vince would just let him do that? Of course not

Obviously Vince gets on with HHH and would allow him a certain amount of freedom, but that's not just because he's his son-in-law. Let's just imagine for a moment that Stephanie had married Test, not as an angle, but in real life. Would Test be able to get himself into HHH's present day position? I seriously doubt it. A big part of the reason that HHH has some control is because Vince knows that he has a good mind for the business and that he isn't going to do anything stupid

gimmick · 12-04-2006 3:52pm

From wikipedia:

Russo was then involved in a very controversial incident with Hulk Hogan. Hogan was booked to lose a match against reigning world champion Jeff Jarrett at Bash at the Beach 2000, and Hogan refused to lose the match and invoked his "creative control" clause in his contract to override Russo. In the end, Jarrett "laid down" for Hogan and Hogan won the belt. Russo, though, would come out later in the broadcast and nullify the result of the match, publicly firing Hogan and restoring the title to Jarrett and setting up a new title match between Jarrett and Booker T. Whether or not the whole incident was a "shoot" (real) or a "work" (storyline) is still debated, but Hogan never resurfaced in WCW, and even filed a lawsuit against WCW (which was dismissed in 2002). Russo, on his new promotion's website, currently claims (as of 31 Oct 2005) the whole thing was a "work" with both Hogan and Bischoff in on the deal.

There was also a very good post by Russo on www.ringofglory.com, but that page is now taken down.

Re Mr Nice Guy. You haven't even tried to address the topic, merely going on another anti HHH tirade.

Where did you hear that Hogan pushed for the win?

I remember reading it on a gossip website around the time. That said, these sites make stuff up all the time anyway, so i wouldnt read much into it. However, i wouldnt not believe it.

Yeah Benoit's doing great, isn't he? In the US title scene and I heard he lost to Mark Henry at a House Show. Thanks a bunch Triple H!

Yes, Benoit is doing great. he has reportedly just signed anew long term deal with the wwe. Had one of the best matches at Wrestlemania this. Had a short US title run, which has helped galvanise much needed credibility to that strap. So what if he lost to Mark Henry at a house show? These things rarely have much bearing on what ahppens televised, but probably did well to garner some good hat for Henry. Benoit, or anyone else for that matter, NEED to be in the main event scene to be succesful. He is not being buried, he is on TV every week, and will be pushed at the main event again sooner or later. He has never been a 'full time' main eventer, but he is one of the are people who can go from low card to main event seamlessly, and always look like a threat. So how, oh please tell me how HHH is at fault for that?

Why, you have your other buddy win the Rumble and main event WM!

Just like the fans 'demanded' Hogan have one more match, the fans seemed to demand Batistas face turn. Again, how did HHH cause that? As it turned out, Batista/HHH had one of the best build up to a match in years, and a good fued after the first match. I cant see where the problem is?

Both he and HBK also pushed for Vince to do the Montreal screw job

Lets not claim to know the facts on this shall we? There are 2 versions of events - Vinces side and Brets side. No - one outside a very small circle knows 100% what the facts are here, so why bother speculate?

Triple H has more control over his legacy than anyone.

Hogan still has creative control doesn't he?

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-04-2006 5:14pm

The reason I asked about Russo/Hogan was that I've read a transcript of a recent Russo interview and he claimed it was all a shoot.

gimmick wrote:

Re Mr Nice Guy. You haven't even tried to address the topic, merely going on another anti HHH tirade.

I did address the topic. The topic was Hogan vs Triple H in terms of political clout and I made the point that I didn't feel that it was a fair comparison since Triple H is in an unprecedented position. Please don't be glib.

gimmick wrote:

I remember reading it on a gossip website around the time. That said, these sites make stuff up all the time anyway, so i wouldnt read much into it. However, i wouldnt not believe it.

Fair enough. The reason I asked is that I know you tend to treat those kinds of sites with scepticism.

gimmick wrote:

Yes, Benoit is doing great. he has reportedly just signed anew long term deal with the wwe. Had one of the best matches at Wrestlemania this. Had a short US title run, which has helped galvanise much needed credibility to that strap. So what if he lost to Mark Henry at a house show? These things rarely have much bearing on what ahppens televised, but probably did well to garner some good hat for Henry. Benoit, or anyone else for that matter, NEED to be in the main event scene to be succesful. He is not being buried, he is on TV every week, and will be pushed at the main event again sooner or later. He has never been a 'full time' main eventer, but he is one of the are people who can go from low card to main event seamlessly, and always look like a threat. So how, oh please tell me how HHH is at fault for that?

Your argument was that Triple H has put Benoit over, however Benoit has been at the mid-card level his entire run on Smackdown - despite being the number 1 draft pick for Smackdown - and he has been denied a chance to return to the main event. When Benoit lost the World Title he got a rematch the next night on Raw but never again got a fair one on one rematch for it. If you want to argue that Triple H put Benoit over I simply say look a the two men here in 2006 - Triple H in the WWE title scene, Chris Benoit trying to get back the US title. Progress? I also wasn't aware he had singed a new contract and from what has been reported, he was getting very low offers. from management.

gimmick wrote:

Just like the fans 'demanded' Hogan have one more match, the fans seemed to demand Batistas face turn. Again, how did HHH cause that? As it turned out, Batista/HHH had one of the best build up to a match in years, and a good fued after the first match. I cant see where the problem is?

The fans had Evolution rammed down their throat and they went with Batista as a counter-reaction to Orton's crap babyface run. The build-up might have been good but Triple H was heavily invovled in it and Batista is not a great wrestler - something he has acknowledged in interviews stating that he knows he won't go down as the best wrestler from a technical standpoint.

gimmick wrote:

Lets not claim to know the facts on this shall we? There are 2 versions of events - Vinces side and Brets side. No - one outside a very small circle knows 100% what the facts are here, so why bother speculate?

Wrong. In Michael's own book he acknowledges that him and Triple H pushed for Bret to get screwed and Bret himself has acknowledged that Triple H was part of it. At a meeting session with fans he referred to Triple H as a "piece of sh*t" and in a recent radio show Triple H said Bret should get over Montreal (even though his father-in-law seems to be the one still hung up on it). I'm not speculating. These are the facts.

gimmick wrote:

Hogan still has creative control doesn't he?

As I understand it, Hogan is signed to a legends contract that gives him creative control and I think a few other wrestlers have similar clauses. Foley is one if I'm not mistaken.
My point however, and you seem unwilling to want to acknowledge it, is that Triple H has the power to shape his very legacy.

The WWE can ruin reputations (see the Ultimate Warrior DVD and the original plans for the Bret DVD titled 'Screwed') and they have the power to shape legacies ('Triple H is the best ever' 'King of Kings' and so forth).

My feelings on Triple H appear to be similar to your feelings on Hogan but at least I acknowledge that Hogan could do better whereas you appear to want to stay in denial over the UNPARALLELED influence that Triple H has.

J.R.HARTLEY · 12-04-2006 6:04pm

triple h came back from a nine month injury won the strap at wm and dropped it only weeks later to a fifty-something past-it hogan
sums it all up really

Vince135792003 · 12-04-2006 7:15pm

Both are very, very smart men.

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-04-2006 7:44pm

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

triple h came back from a nine month injury won the strap at wm and dropped it only weeks later to a fifty-something past-it hogan
sums it all up really

Hardly. I think you are looking back on the past retrospectively. That match was a month after arguably the greatest match ever in terms of fan support which propelled Hogan above The Rock as the top babyface. How long was Hogan's title reign for?

Looking at that same year, Triple H was handed the World Heavyweight belt on Raw and went over, among others, RVD and Kane before dropping the strap to HBK (his best pal) who then dropped it right back to Triple H who carried it all the way to WM19 - where he again went over Booker T and held the title all the way to Unforgiven - where he lost it to Goldberg - who he would eventually win it back from!

Vince135792003 wrote:

Both are very, very smart men.

I think that's at least something we could all agree upon.

gimmick · 12-04-2006 8:12pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The reason I asked about Russo/Hogan was that I've read a transcript of a recent Russo interview and he claimed it was all a shoot.

You will have to pardon my ignorance, but isnt that the same as a 'worked' shoot? In that he was giving away backstage 'secrets' in a promo, where it looked like he ahd finally gotten sick of it all. I think we could be on about the same thing.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

My feelings on Triple H appear to be similar to your feelings on Hogan but at least I acknowledge that Hogan could do better whereas you appear to want to stay in denial over the UNPARALLELED influence that Triple H has.

I have acknowledged HHHs influence, I just do not deem it to be as bad as what you make out. You keep going back to him being 'handed' the title. To be honest, I wouldnt read into it too much, it was a stroyline after all, at a time when Raw was almost the 'B' show (in so far as SD was on fire at this time), and were lacking a top class heel. I agree it was a poor storyline, but thats all is was, a storyline. Raw was a very poor show from mid 2002 to late 2003.

look a the two men here in 2006 - Triple H in the WWE title scene, Chris Benoit trying to get back the US title.

I dont see the problem. At the moment SD is a better show than Raw - why? IMO because the entire brand isnt based around one fued. SD has some good fueds going in the CW division, which looks to be gaining something of a good reputation finally. It has mid card fueds with taker and Giant/Henry. It has Lashely Vs Finlay. It has a US Title fued going between Benoit and JBL, and finally The WHC between Rey/Orton/Angle. i realsie Orton is now shelved for the foreseeable, but you see my point? Benoit has helped the US title to be a legit title with help from Booker and JBL. Not the joke it was when Carlito won it on his first night, or when Orlando Jordan held it for too long, making it look a low card title.

The fact that Benoit isnt main eventing doesnt bother me in the slightest. I know he will be again sooner or later. And lets be honest, If benoit was in the main event scene the whole time people would be bitching about him as well. Wrestling fans are fickle.

triple h came back from a nine month injury won the strap at wm and dropped it only weeks later to a fifty-something past-it hogan
sums it all up really

Sums what up?

I think that's at least something we could all agree upon.

Yup.

Vince135792003 · 12-04-2006 11:12pm

Just 1 point about Benoits run as champ. For the majority of it, he still was n't top of the card. It was still centred around Triple H with his program with Michaels.

Oh yeah another thing that struck me. Benoit's first match when he jumped to the WWE as WCW champion I think was against Trips. If Triple H had put him over in any way, man you could have had a program there. But no, he got pinned on his first night in. Wheres the logic in that in terms of drawing money? There is none I don't think.

But both of them can't complain about the run they have had thats for sure.

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-04-2006 11:13pm

gimmick wrote:

You will have to pardon my ignorance, but isnt that the same as a 'worked' shoot? In that he was giving away backstage 'secrets' in a promo, where it looked like he ahd finally gotten sick of it all. I think we could be on about the same thing.

Yes, I think we are.

gimmick wrote:

I have acknowledged HHHs influence, I just do not deem it to be as bad as what you make out. You keep going back to him being 'handed' the title. To be honest, I wouldnt read into it too much, it was a stroyline after all, at a time when Raw was almost the 'B' show (in so far as SD was on fire at this time), and were lacking a top class heel. I agree it was a poor storyline, but thats all is was, a storyline. Raw was a very poor show from mid 2002 to late 2003.

Being handed the belt is just a small example, although it does count towards his 10 title wins. I agree Raw was a poor show and I think you'll find it was in no small part to nearly every episode beginning with a 20 minute Triple H promo.

gimmick wrote:

I dont see the problem. At the moment SD is a better show than Raw - why? IMO because the entire brand isnt based around one fued. SD has some good fueds going in the CW division, which looks to be gaining something of a good reputation finally. It has mid card fueds with taker and Giant/Henry. It has Lashely Vs Finlay. It has a US Title fued going between Benoit and JBL, and finally The WHC between Rey/Orton/Angle. i realsie Orton is now shelved for the foreseeable, but you see my point? Benoit has helped the US title to be a legit title with help from Booker and JBL. Not the joke it was when Carlito won it on his first night, or when Orlando Jordan held it for too long, making it look a low card title.

The fact that Benoit isnt main eventing doesnt bother me in the slightest. I know he will be again sooner or later. And lets be honest, If benoit was in the main event scene the whole time people would be bitching about him as well. Wrestling fans are fickle.

I agree Smackdown is the better show but I honestly don't credit that with Benoit - not because I think he's done badly but because I think he's been misused. Recently in an interview Edge said Benoit "isn't underrated, he's under-utilised". I think that's an apt description. I don't mind Benoit hovering around the US title scene but do you not realise he's been there almost a year? Not even Triple H kept himself in the mid-card level that long.

I'll give credit where credit is due. He has put over guys in recent years, but my point is that he is not in danger by doing that because he has the power to shape his own legacy.

fatal · 12-04-2006 11:33pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

He has put over guys in recent years, but my point is that he is not in danger by doing that because he has the power to shape his own legacy.

i totally agree with that.....hogan has placed how he is remembered with people that dislike him...HHH has the comfort of being married to the bosses daughter and pretty much slotting himself ANYWHERE he wants

Hogan Vs HHH

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