I may not be popular for saying this but...

MrJoeSoap

Degsy wrote:

I'm just willing to bet that this heroic action won't involve the people of your own country.

Nope.

The Doktor wrote:

no i didnt.. was just tryin to keep it this century, thats all.. but yeah.. ur right

And the last century...

The_B_Man

the whole "africe thing" has been goin on so long that i tihnk peole are becoming de-sensitised by it. it takes massive events such as Live Aid, Live 8 etc to even get us interested. and then, most people would probably go to see the bands. the interest has gone due to the fact that it seems nothing is helping. everyday u hear stories about chuggers and the journey of ur donated cash. how 30% of it goes to the actual charity. its an uphill battle. they would've been better off campaigning to drop the debt since Live Aid, rather than tryin to pay it off.

"Out of sight, out of mind" pops into me head. while its PC to say u care about all the goings on over there, truth is, people have more local things to be concerned about. While everyone wants world peace, and all the rest, the effort involved goes beyond the scope of what we can do under current circumstances. even saying "well lets change things then" wont be enough.

not in our lifetime.

The Doktor

MrJoeSoap wrote:

And the last century...

ok ok.. last hundred years then..

Degsy

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Nope.



And the last century...

So its more of a holiday then?I suppose it wouldnt look as good in the photographs later saying "And here's me in a squat in Ballymun,distributing food to the children of junkies!"

MrJoeSoap

I would love to see the statistics on how many children die of starvation in Ballymun each day.

Degsy

You'd probably be surprised but then it only has a population of 12000.
You're right Africa's far more important because its on the telly and if Celebrities are sticking thier oar in why not bask in the reflected glory?

MrJoeSoap

Who said Africa?

edanto

Degsy wrote:

Anyway..the whole point i was making is that charities are a salve for the conscience,they pay directors huge salaries and they have expensive premises,and the mug who wants to show off by "donating" is keeping the whole rotten system afloat.

Can you back that up with any statistics or links? I call bullsh1t.

In fact, I'd say that your whole attitude in this thread stinks of begrudgery. You're giving out because high profile celebrities try to get good ideas for poverty reduction on to the political agenda and then you try and suggest that when the average punter gives money or time to charities, it's a total waste.

Absolute bollox.

A large proportion of donations goes direct to the people that need it and as for the celebrities, it's thanks to their activities that selfish gits like yourself even have the faintest clue what's going on. What stops you from congratulating people like Bob Geldof or Bono that give up a bit of their time to help out people that are worse off? Is it because it's an activity you can't identify with, you just don't have any empathy or humanity?

Or are you such a bitter person that you just can't imagine that we could live in world where people all over the world had the same opportunities and quality of life? I challenge you to try getting involved. Put your time where your loud mouth is - call a charity and ask them is there anything you can do to help. Put in a few hours with them and when you have some facts to form educated opinions come on back and share them with us.

You'll be upset to know that the Taxman is giving a lot of your taxes to charity, Ireland Aid gives top quality help to countless people around the world and it's untied aid, in that it doesn't have to be spent on Irish products or services.

How many people are actually wealthy in this country you asked? Nearly everyone, relatively speaking. Relative to the world, where over a billion people live on less than a dollar a day and cows in the EU get about $2.50 a day.

Frankly, you have no idea what you're talking about, I bet you've never been to Africa or any of the places that we're discussing. All you can do is insult people that show your posts are made up (Mariah Carey 'quote').

I'm willing to take my chances on surviving an insult or two from you. You said above that potentially 800 euro of a donation of a grand would go into the admins pocket - when in actual fact Concern spent about a million on Administration and about 12 million on Promotion from a total budget of just over 91 million in 2004.

So, basically, you're talking sh1te.

Mr.Nice Guy

This thread offers a depressing insight into the apathy felt towards the Third World.

Sad.

WhiteWashMan

Degsy wrote:

Oh yes,of course go read a BOOK!I knew there was something i'd been neglecting to do all these years.Do you think reading Stiglitz makes you intelligent?First year BESS reading "Roaring 90's-seeds of destruction"Joseph Stiglitz.."The mcDonaldisdation of Society"George Ritzer.More Stiglitz?"Re-thinking the east-asian miracle".Bull**** crappy children's econimics books,everybody's so left wing these days it makes me sick.You wanna go read a book,let me reccomend "dog eat dog" by edward Bunker.Poxy Students.

oh, nothing like a bit of pretentiousness to sound like a late developing teen...

Aporia

Its funny how people can sit there and do nothing and say its all down to social problems, our few Euros wont make a difference.

I'm not saying that's entierly the problem And I certainly didn't say those euros don't make a difference. I talking about the root of the problems you can't discount the fact that colonisation created a lot of the problems we now see in Africa/Middle East. States were carved out at random by the great powers using geographical boundaries, but the native populations were divided and mixed together in randoem ways, I think this is probably the main reason for the civiel wars which have been occurring in Africa. However, there is also the issue of corruption which is rife and that's the most serious problem. As long as a state is corrupt you will never get the reforms or infrastructure needed to bring economic developmnent. This situation certainly suits large corporations as they just give some official a big ass bribe and get on with whatever they are doing. any criticism of corrupt regimes usually gets deflected in arguments about "neo-colonialism" or "racism".
That said, any country that does attempt to improve things will usually find everything stacked against them. Its the whole trade issue.

Cancelling the debt of third world countries will help them, as this money can be used to improve social services and infrastructure, but the question is, will it be used in this way, ord will the money be spent in private armies/paramilitary groups etc. It's not all about giving money and the problems solved as you seem to think.
Its unlikely that the world economic system will change any time soon us Irish would be a lot poorer if it did.

Well and good for you sitting in front of your computer to say that we cant make a difference.

Oh we could make a difference a huge one if everyone contributed, but wake up that's never going to happen.

Really? And does it make you feel better about the fact that you do nothing by accusing those who DO give a damn of only doing it for their own personal reasons? Thats just sad. I dont tell anyone what I donate, coz its none of their damn business, thats between me and the charities I support, but how dare you suggest that the only reason people do this is for personal emotional gain.

It is for their own personal emotional gain I'll say whatever I want and believe after all everyone has different opinions. It is for their own personal emotional gain You just can see behond the situation, now that's sad.

My reason for doing this is because I have respect for my fellow man, and I can at least partially understand the misery they suffer, and how we can do something to change it. I realize the fact that I have been born as one of the luckiest people in the world, and I realize the fact that it could so easily have been different, and it could be me sitting there, 8 years old dying of a combination of AIDs and starvation as my family die around me.

Okay so you feel bad for them right therefore you need to ease that bad feeling a bit by donating money. Every single thing we do as humans is for ourselves. You'd kill yourself for someone you love. For them to be happy because if they did were not happy, you'd feel bad. I'm being honest by saying that I don't, infact, care. I might tut and be "concerned" but in essence I'm as apathetic as the next person. Yes, the "man" has won. I am the product of this mass consumerist society

The money we give may only be a small amount, and it may only do a small amount of good, but if everyone in the world who does give stopped, what would happen? How many MORE people would die, above the tragic numbers we already see every day?

I wouln't worry about it, I doubt they will :rolleyes:

Whats even more sickening is when people actually seem to be proud of the fact that they do nothing, and dont care.

I was just being honest not proud.

The 3rd world farmers are being undercut and crippled by the EU and the states. They're not looking for "handouts," what they need is for us to stop crippling their economies. Saying that "there needs to be opposites for the world to work" is a very ignorant understanding of economics. Since the 1980's Ireland has flourished from the Celtic Tiger and unemployment has fallen to a record low, and who has been negatively affected by this? Not america, not Europe and not the UK, and neither will we be hurt if the level of income rises in the third world.

Ireland has benefitted heavily from the brain-drain of skilled eastern european workers who are willing to work for less than their western competitors. For example, so many people have left Lithuania for western Europe that African construction workers and contractors have to be imported as guest workers to complete building projects in the country.

Chucky the tree

nuke them all...

RoyalMarine

Chucky the tree wrote:

nuke them all...

pretty pathetic and stupid remark to be honest.

obviously you know nothing of what you speak. by which i mean your a complete ignorant feck of a stuck up person who cares more for your own posessions than probably your own family.

get a life and remove your post..

all your doing is offending people.


back on discussion,
even though some people do contribute monies monthy/weekly, and granted it does help a lot, in the end its not a soloution to the problem. eventually people are going to stop the direct debits to the charity's, while other's will start them. but in the end they will never get the desired effect that they are really looking for. a surge in donations to help one big problem. its not going to end, probably never will and all we can do is complain about it, whine bitch and moan.
its just one of those things in life thats never going to go away.
there will always be 3rd world countries, poor people, sick people, people in need...
the only thing we can really do about it is either...

1> ignore it.
2> give some money now and then to make ourselves feel that slight bit less guilty.
3> be 1 of those "heroe's" like bob gelolf etc who try their heart and soul to make a difference.


but as i said earlier, its a problem thats never going to go away no matter what we believe.

Michael G

onemanband wrote:

To Raiser
The best god damn post I have ever read. There I was reading through some of the greatest piles of sXXt in my life and you rescued my at the end.respect!

Absolutely right. You cut through a lot of nasty ignorant smug rubbish.

But I would agree with some of the other posts which said that there is no point giving money to the Governments in these countries. Some people don't like it when you say this, but a lot of poor countries are run by bastards and there is no possibility that they can replace the bastards with proper governments. So you are better off giving it to western charities that can keep some control over spending the money (though they probably do have to bribe some of the bastards to keep things moving).

The very ironic thing is that if those countries were still being run by the British, French, Portuguese etc no one would be starving, because the public in the colonist countries wouldn't let it happen. Imagine if the British still had Zimbabwe, or even if Ian Smith or his successor were in charge.

Khannie

base2 wrote:

Ps. I'm more educated than you.

But s/he's clearly more intellegent than you. In fairness, you got owned by a really good post. Take it on the chin.

jimmycrackcorm

I don't give a ****e - but then I'm home drun k and cab arely type tis

Archeron

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I don't give a ****e - but then I'm home drun k and cab arely type tis

We have a winning post!!

I see though that some people suggest that the relatively small amounts donated to the charities makes little or no difference, but this simply isnt true. Its a sad fact of todays media that a full blown famine will guarantee television crews by the dozen (strangely arriving before aid does), who will film the misery and death in order to broadcast it to the western world, because they know it is of interest, mainly due to the sheer scale of suffering. They tug at our heartstrings in a manner that suggests they really do give a damn, when in reality, for the majority of them,(Obviously not all) it just makes good television, and increases their viewership. Thats good TV.

On the other hand, keep in mind that every year, somewhere in the world, harvests fail, and thousands or tens of thousands of peoples lives are threatened. Charities launch massive appeals to subscribers and non-subscribers, who do, or do not give money to help. The majority of these disasters are, thankfully, handled before they become catastrophes. The aid needed is supplied by the charities, and the dangerous period of having no food is overcome. Now, its unlikely that any high flying reporter will stand in a dusty part of Africa reporting on the famine that "almost" happened, because thats just not good TV.
I believe that its this selective media that causes people to be so cynical of the good work put in by these people. Perhaps if they did become more involved in charitable organizations, they would actually get to hear about the success stories, not just the misery. I have seen many times over the past number of years, massive amounts of human suffering being avoided because SOME people give enough of a f*ck to try to help.
To those who say its all selfish and a sort of guit trip, I'll be honest and say, speaking on my own behalf, I cant personally present an argument to prove the reason why I choose to assist in whatever tiny way I can, so I shant bother to try, as goodness knows, there has been enough bullsh*t presented in this thread so far to fertilize Leitrim. However, you may sit there all smug, doing shag all because you;re honest enought to admit that you dnt care. And think what a wonderful person you must be, because you dont need to get those warm fuzzy feelings of personal fulfulment by helping, "those over there". Thankfully, there are many people who do care, and will continue to do so. And even if they are doing it for egotisitical reasons, do you think the thousands, or millions of people who are still alive thanks to their work really give a damn?

WhiteWashMan

RoyalMarineComm wrote:

pretty pathetic and stupid remark to be honest.

obviously you know nothing of what you speak. by which i mean your a complete ignorant feck of a stuck up person who cares more for your own posessions than probably your own family.

get a life and remove your post..

all your doing is offending people.
.

thats quite the number of assumptions you base your little bit vitriolic diatribe on.
so someone doesnt care as much about helping other people than you, you feel that they need to get a life.

how untolerant for someone so charitable....

by the way, insult someone like that again and i will ban you. the only ignorance here is yours.

Lump

Oh how I laughed at the OP, I don't personally care, I'm much more concerned about national issues of poverty etc.... sort out our own country before worrying about everyone else if you ask me.

John

Vegeta

I refuse to pity a continent with such backward values, some countries believe if infected with AIDS having sex with virgins will cure it, if somone in a household contracts AIDS often children are kicked out as they are thought to be witches and have brought bad luck to the family.

They have been getting aid for over 20 years, there is little to no improvement. 20 years of money towards education and health care.

We can blame EU this and market that but there are some fundamental social problems holding Africa back.

Giving money to charity in Africa is like trying to cut the Moon in half with a plastic fork. It does make a difference yes but very little and to very few. Radical social changes need to be implemented there if they are to ever stand a chance.

I know this is cruel and harsh but if I were all powerful I would isolate Africa from the rest of the world for the next twenty years only giving them knowledge, no debts, no money, no goods, no handouts.

Put simply the countries in Africa have more people than they can provide for and their lack of birth control and ignorance to AIDS makes things worse

Vegeta

Vegeta wrote:

I refuse to pity a continent with such backward values, some countries believe if infected with AIDS having sex with virgins will cure it, if somone in a household contracts AIDS often children are kicked out as they are thought to be witches and have brought bad luck to the family.

They have been getting aid for over 20 years, there is little to no improvement. 20 years of money towards education and health care.

We can blame EU this and market that but there are some fundamental social problems holding Africa back.

Giving money to charity in Africa is like trying to cut the Moon in half with a plastic fork. It does make a difference yes but very little and to very few. Radical social changes need to be implemented there if they are to ever stand a chance.

I know this is cruel and harsh but if I were all powerful I would isolate Africa from the rest of the world for the next twenty years only giving them knowledge, no debts, no money, no goods, no handouts.

Put simply the countries in Africa have more people than they can provide for and their lack of birth control and ignorance to AIDS makes things worse

That's not a problem with the country though. Alot of it is because of religion. The Catholic Church still bans the use of contraception. And since these countries are heavily devout, they will keep with what the church says. Only until you convince the Church to do it, I don't think any social changes will happen for a while yet

Vegeta

Deleted User wrote:

That's not a problem with the country though. Alot of it is because of religion. The Catholic Church still bans the use of contraception. And since these countries are heavily devout, they will keep with what the church says. Only until you convince the Church to do it, I don't think any social changes will happen for a while yet

Yeah hand up here who is catholic and still uses birth control....Vegeta raises his hand.

Ya cant blame the church, their position if strictly followed is not to have sex unless its for reproduction. So if they're going to break that rule they might as well use birth control.

I also doubt the church tell them to abondon their kids and have sex with virgins

You can be damned sure the aid workers are giving instructions on family planning as well.

If they don't evolve socially they'll never improve their economy, Ya can place blame all day but its the African people who are suffering and need to adapt, stop fighting take on baord every precaution with regards disease,

ronbyrne2005

God theres some inhumane heartless pricks on here. Millions of people are suffering/dying through no fault of their own yet people justify their inaction by rationalising in their selfish heads that its not their/our fault and they shouldnt do anything and shouldnt feel even slightest guilt for doing nothing despite having a privilleged life consume vastly more than their fair share of the worlds/human races resources.

edanto

Aporia wrote:

However, there is also the issue of corruption which is rife and that's the most serious problem.

What are you basing that on?

And do you mean corrupt international politicians or local government in places like Africa?

Vegeta wrote:

Radical social changes need to be implemented there if they are to ever stand a chance.

Like what?

I refuse to pity a continent with such backward values, some countries believe if infected with AIDS having sex with virgins will cure it, if somone in a household contracts AIDS often children are kicked out as they are thought to be witches and have brought bad luck to the family.

Massive, groundless assumption. Backward values? Give me some proof or experiences you've had to support this please.
As for the sickening misconceptions you mentioned, they exist, in a minority of places, but they make news over here because they are so disgusting. But you can tell the beliefs of whole countries from thousands of miles away, as you sit at your computer???!!
They are not representative of the whole continent.

MrJoeSoap

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

God theres some inhumane heartless pricks on here. Millions of people are suffering/dying through no fault of their own yet people justify their inaction by rationalising in their selfish heads that its not their/our fault and they shouldnt do anything and shouldnt feel even slightest guilt for doing nothing despite having a privilleged life consume vastly more than their fair share of the worlds/human races resources.

That famine picture is just incredible. :eek:

I now understand the MSP song...

Khannie

MrJoeSoap wrote:

That famine picture is just incredible. :eek:

Yeah, pretty powerful stuff allright. I wonder about the truth of the attached text, but it's a powerful picture.

MrJoeSoap

Khannie wrote:

Yeah, pretty powerful stuff allright. I wonder about the truth of the attached text, but it's a powerful picture.

http://www.kevincarterfilm.com/

Vegeta

edanto wrote:

What are you basing that on?

And do you mean corrupt international politicians or local government in places like Africa?


Like what?



Massive, groundless assumption. Backward values? Give me some proof or experiences you've had to support this please.
As for the sickening misconceptions you mentioned, they exist, in a minority of places, but they make news over here because they are so disgusting. But you can tell the beliefs of whole countries from thousands of miles away, as you sit at your computer???!!
They are not representative of the whole continent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/default.stm

look at the pictures in the bottom right of the link

think that covers my groundless assumptions tens of thousands isn't a minority

Aporia

edanto wrote:

What are you basing that on?

And do you mean corrupt international politicians or local government in places like Africa?


Like what?

Both.
Its not only a "third" world phenomenon. Take Greece for example. Everyday corruption is a serious problem. You have to pay everyone off, from your doctor to the garbage man. Its called the "envelope". So its everywhere.
In the developing world, the very few resources are sometimes squandered and mismanaged through corrupt officials. There's a list that comes out every year of the most corrupt regimes. It makes for interesting reading.




Also, the term 'third world' is massively outdated (especially because you are talking about countries as 3rd world when they would actually be a 4th world like if you were to use this classification system). It should be referred to as the developed/developing world.

CuLT

I'd like to say that I'm surprised by the multitude of sectarian attitudes here, but I'm not.

This "us and them" vibe is an archaic attitude, we are, to quote John Lennon, the "brotherhood of man", there is no "them", only us.

You say we have to solve problems at home first? This planet is our home, the prevalent parochial attitude of the first world populous is in serious need of revision. The problem, I see, is that this idea is being rejected becuase it is it is paraded amidst the trappings of a religion equally archaic as the attitudes it tries to discourage (not pointing the finger at any religion in particular, this is directed at large religions in general).

There is an emerging culture of moral relativity in the Western world, indepedent of religion. This is often - and mostly exclusively by religious people - viewed as a negative occurrence. I don't believe it is; if people can be encouraged to adopt a wider, humanistic, attitude, we'd be on the way to developing a much better world.