Israel

TIMMAY!

I have recently spent some time in the middle east, I went over with a very open mind as to the situation and to politics in the region, not knowing very much about it at the time. Since then I have read extensivly on the subject and tried to see things from both sides. To sum up I can empathise greatly with the Arabs, and am absolutly appauled at the State of Israel.

Whats the other side to the story that I am missing???
How can a Jew born in Israel in the last twenty years justify, forcibly moving palastineans from their homes, shooting them and improsining them behind a wall; not dissimilar to the Iron Curtain wall of Berlin.???
How can the rest of the world stand by and let this happen??

Today the palastineans who are at this stage desperate, are about to fall apart, the only leaders who they can respect are 'terrorists' and theirfore the international community cannot deal with them. This is a situation which will just get worse and worse, I really can see no end to the torture of these poor people. Where will it end????

I am really just trying to understand the issues, not having a go at anyone and I would be interested to get a knowlegable discussion going.

sceptre

I'll have more sympathy for both groups of people when they each properly recognise the right of the other to exist and to have some element of self-determination.

Until they do that they might as well be a shower of muck savages throwing sophisticated rocks at each other and bringing up their children to hate the enemy who isn't them.

Might sound a tad harsh but I'm sick of people having either a completely pro-Israeli or completely pro-Palestinian attitude (I'm not accusing the original poster of this, at least not yet, but it's pretty common) and pushing it about when it's plain to anyone who bothers to look that they're all acting like a crowd of children with some very dangerous toys to throw out of the pram. I'm not appalled, at this stage I expect little better from either side. If they ever manage to stop acting like crybabies with bombs they can come to my house for tea. Until then, no tea for them.

DublinWriter

sceptre wrote:

If they ever manage to stop acting like crybabies with bombs they can come to my house for tea. Until then, no tea for them.

You could say exactly the same about Northern Ireland.

OP, you're opening up a auld can of worms. It's very hard to have even the slightest chance of having a proper didactic debate on this without people going off on one.

I have friends from both sides, lovely people all, but I thread very carefully about debating near-eastern politics with them.

It's a little too easy for the Israeli's to cry 'terrorist' at the Palestinians when the father of their state, Menachem Begin, was on the British most-wanted-list after he blew up the King David Hotel in 1947 in what was clearly a most terrorist act.

Let's just say that I think there should be an Israeli state and that the Palestinians also have the right to self-determination.

TapouT

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/mideast/History_of_Israel_in_a_Nutshell.swf

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/mideast/History_of_Israel_in_a_Nutshell_Too.swf

Pazaz 21

I'm just curious as to why the Palestinians aren't demanding to have Jordan back. I mean Jordan is three quarters of what they call "Palestine" so therefore shouldn't they be demanding that back instead of complaining about the less then a quarter Isreal has ? I know Arafat fought and made agreement in Jordan against and with the King, respectively, but i haven't heard much recently about it. Has Hama ever demanded that Jordan be returned to "Palestinians" ? I've never heard it mentioned.

Also, TapouT thanks for the links, good info.

EireRoadUser

Just wondering if america was behind ireland 40 years ago ,supplying us with rockets guns and weapons ,what type of people would we be ???
Would we actually be a country ,or just part of a machine.

Pazaz 21

EireRoadUser wrote:

Just wondering if america was behind ireland 40 years ago ,supplying us with rockets guns and weapons ,what type of people would we be ???
Would we actually be a country ,or just part of a machine.

Why would Ireland have needed rockets, guns and weapons 40 years ago for ?

EireRoadUser

Why does Israel need any ?

zepp

EireRoadUser wrote:

Why does Israel need any ?

because hamas launch rockets at them? i am with sceptre on this one no tea for the middle east

TapouT

EireRoadUser wrote:

Just wondering if america was behind ireland 40 years ago ,supplying us with rockets guns and weapons ,what type of people would we be ???
Would we actually be a country ,or just part of a machine.

Oh thats an old argument, and one easily dealth with.

On the eve of Israel's independent it was attacked by its Arab neighbours, who were financed and equipt by both Russia and China. At the time Israel had NO backing from America, but had a mish-mash of military equipment from Britain and France.

Now imagine just for a moment had those countries beat Israel in just ONE war in its fifty year history!. We'd have had Russia and China controlling the middle eastern oil fields, the Eastern Bloc would have won the cold war and we'd be goose stepping behind Gerry Adams on O'Connell St. today!.

TapouT

EireRoadUser wrote:

Why does Israel need any ?

:rolleyes:

EireRoadUser

Sorry Tapout ,i'm out of my depth alright ,thanks for putting me straight.

I'm just sick of watching the war going on over there ,are russia and china still supplying weapons to the countries you mentioned though??

ChityWest

EireRoadUser wrote:

Sorry Tapout ,i'm out of my depth alright ,thanks for putting me straight.

I'm just sick of watching the war going on over there ,are russia and china still supplying weapons to the countries you mentioned though??

Yes - they send the palestinians a fresh box of rocks & slingshots on the first of each month. Pesky commies!

Pazaz 21

EireRoadUser wrote:

Sorry Tapout ,i'm out of my depth alright ,thanks for putting me straight.

I'm just sick of watching the war going on over there ,are russia and china still supplying weapons to the countries you mentioned though??

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=22968

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/08/17/jordanaircraft.shtml

Oh ya, try www.google.com , works every time !!!

John R

TapouT wrote:

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/mideast/History_of_Israel_in_a_Nutshell.swf

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/mideast/History_of_Israel_in_a_Nutshell_Too.swf

History in half a nutshell would be a better title.

Stating in massive fonts all the bad things everyone else has done in the past while painting one's own side as the poor innocent victims of circumstance, terribly helpful

Propaganda TBH.

TapouT

ChityWest wrote:

Yes - they send the palestinians a fresh box of rocks & slingshots on the first of each month. Pesky commies!

The nature of a politic debate means that discussions sometimes get heated, so we'd thank you for keeping the silly comments out of the thread.

Yes, China and Russia still finance and supply most Arabic countries.

TapouT

John R wrote:

History in half a nutshell would be a better title.

Stating in massive fonts all the bad things everyone else has done in the past while painting one's own side as the poor innocent victims of circumstance, terribly helpful

Propaganda TBH.

Show me a side in a conflict, be it war, politics, religion etc who doesn't use some propaganda in some way shape or form. But other than the propaganda comment is there anything else you'd like to add to the discussion?.

EireRoadUser

Who else is going to supply the palestinians ??

It's america and russia who need to sort things out ,going by both them links.
America profits far more from the troubles ,so maybe america doesn't want to sort anything out.

If i could speak russian ,I wonder what the russian websites would say about all this.

Pazaz 21

EireRoadUser wrote:

America profits far more from the troubles ,so maybe america doesn't want to sort anything out.

Explain?

John R

TapouT wrote:

Show me a side in a conflict, be it war, politics, religion etc who doesn't use some propaganda in some way shape or form.

So you are not denying it then.

TapouT wrote:

But other than the propaganda comment is there anything else you'd like to add to the discussion?.

I hadn't intended to, I just get narked off when people publish one-sided self-serving infobullsh1t as "The Truth".


To get back to the OP's point, The state of Israel regularly engages in acts that are completely unjustifiable. That they are perpetrated by a state makes them all the worse. Suicide bombs and mortar attacks are terrible crimes but in no way does that justify the actions of the Israeli government in destroying the homes and lives of the palestinians, locking them up in virtual concentration camps and assasinating civilians including women, children and foreign aid workers.

Israel is a rogue state that is allowed get away with widespread human rights abuses thanks to blind politically motivated support from the US.

EireRoadUser

anyone who justifies a country killing a man who is guiding a child from bullets needs there head examined.

America is helping israel ,because its a small country that doesn't cost too much to arm.
And it keeps the arabs at bay in their own land.

ChityWest

TapouT wrote:

The nature of a politic debate means that discussions sometimes get heated, so we'd thank you for keeping the silly comments out of the thread..

Is that the Royal We ?

I dont remember asking for your permission or agreement to post.

The original post was a bit glib and in the heat of the moment - but the point behind the original post (about Russia supplying boxes of rocks to the palestinians )

is that a lot of the palestinian children who are gunned down/sniped tend to be throwing rocks at the time (or worse still simply going from A to - they are not sitting in american-paid for tanks/helicopters/jet fighters.

The palestinian side of that debate is not on the same playing field when it comes to military might - this is the point of the original post.

TapouT wrote:

Yes, China and Russia still finance and supply most Arabic countries.

You dont mean the likes of Hamas here do you ? Surely your talking about the likes of Egypt/Syria/Lebannon i.e. legitimate countries with legitimate defence requirements ?

The other view - would be that the Russian arms industry is just as legal and legitimate as the american one.

TapouT

John R wrote:

So you are not denying it then..

No pint, you'll just hit me back with more propaganda, thats the way these things go.

John R wrote:

I hadn't intended to, I just get narked off when people publish one-sided self-serving infobullsh1t as "The Truth"...

Since I'm not Israeli, 'nor Jewish what I said or posted is hardly self serving.

John R wrote:

To get back to the OP's point, The state of Israel regularly engages in acts that are completely unjustifiable. That they are perpetrated by a state makes them all the worse. Suicide bombs and mortar attacks are terrible crimes but in no way does that justify the actions of the Israeli government in destroying the homes and lives of the palestinians, locking them up in virtual concentration camps and assasinating civilians including women, children and foreign aid workers.
Israel is a rogue state that is allowed get away with widespread human rights abuses thanks to blind politically motivated support from the US.

You say "terrible crimes" like its not really all that bad!.

Where's your evidence of Israel operating a policy of assinating Women, Children and foreign aid workers?.

TapouT

ChityWest wrote:

Is that the Royal We ?

I dont remember asking for your permission or agreement to post.

The original post was a bit glib and in the heat of the moment - but the point behind the original post (about Russia supplying boxes of rocks to the palestinians )

is that a lot of the palestinian children who are gunned down/sniped tend to be throwing rocks at the time (or worse still simply going from A to - they are not sitting in american-paid for tanks/helicopters/jet fighters.

The palestinian side of that debate is not on the same playing field when it comes to military might - this is the point of the original post.



You dont mean the likes of Hamas here do you ? Surely your talking about the likes of Egypt/Syria/Lebannon i.e. legitimate countries with legitimate defence requirements ?

The other view - would be that the Russian arms industry is just as legal and legitimate as the american one.

Honestly, I can hardly understand that post.

The Corinthian

TIMMAY! wrote:

I have recently spent some time in the middle east, I went over with a very open mind as to the situation and to politics in the region, not knowing very much about it at the time.

Call me naturally cynical, but what were you doing in the Middle East to begin with that you managed to arrive with that rarest of commodities there - a “very open mind”?

Pazaz 21 wrote:

Why would Ireland have needed rockets, guns and weapons 40 years ago for ?

And after seeing the parade today, I reckon that they’re still using the same ones.

LostinBlanch

TapouT wrote:

You say "terrible crimes" like its not really all that bad!.

Well I think they're a lot worse than that.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/10/Suicide+bombing+at+the+Sbarro+pizzeria+in+Jerusale.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Hamas+terror+attacks+22-Mar-2004.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/jerusalem-bus-2-massacre

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146327

TapouT wrote:

Where's your evidence of Israel operating a policy of assinating Women, Children and foreign aid workers?.

Well there's a lot here from so many different sources that make it look less like a series of coincidences.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2122445,00.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/rach-j05.shtml.

http://www.realnews247.com/bbc_rachel_corrie_report.htm

http://www.cactus48.com/murder.html

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2005/02/87198.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3733638.stm

I've no axe to grind on either part. But if you're going to split hairs acts such as the above perpretrated by a nation state against individuals or groups of individuals are (slightly*) worse. In this case this has caused debate and dissent in the Israeli Defence Forces such as the air force pilots refusing to bomb Palestinian targets in heavily built up areas.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

* Apologies if this is the wrong word to use but it's late and I don't have any interantional law books to hand right now.

All the acts above are to be deplored (except for the refuseniks one IMO).

With a continuation of the same mindsets on both sides, all I see is more needless deaths in the future, but I'd be glad for someone to prove me wrong.

TapouT

LostinBlanch wrote:

Well I think they're a lot worse than that.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/10/Suicide+bombing+at+the+Sbarro+pizzeria+in+Jerusale.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Hamas+terror+attacks+22-Mar-2004.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/jerusalem-bus-2-massacre

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146327




Well there's a lot here from so many different sources that make it look less like a series of coincidences.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2122445,00.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/rach-j05.shtml.

http://www.realnews247.com/bbc_rachel_corrie_report.htm

http://www.cactus48.com/murder.html

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2005/02/87198.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3733638.stm

I've no axe to grind on either part. But if you're going to split hairs acts such as the above perpretrated by a nation state against individuals or groups of individuals are (slightly*) worse. In this case this has caused debate and dissent in the Israeli Defence Forces such as the air force pilots refusing to bomb Palestinian targets in heavily built up areas.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

* Apologies if this is the wrong word to use but it's late and I don't have any interantional law books to hand right now.

All the acts above are to be deplored (except for the refuseniks one IMO).

With a continuation of the same mindsets on both sides, all I see is more needless deaths in the future, but I'd be glad for someone to prove me wrong.

You'll have to give me a couple of days to reply unfortunetely. I'm in work at the moment and don't have th time to research what I need for your reply. I've discussed all those issues on another forum over the last few years.

I'm honestly not trying to avoid answering you. But (don't laugh) our cat was knocked down this morning, its not looking like he's going to make it. The Vet suspects he broke his pelvis and back but he wants to get the results of X-rays in the morning. My family are very, very upset and I'm pretty helpless here untill I can get home to them in the morning.

But I will be back to you.

ChityWest

Sorry to hear about your cat - personally I will be leaving this thread where it is as I can see it easily turn into a "see-who-can-throw-the-most-propaganda-fest".

MrSinn

Where ever the british were you can be sure to find trouble in that place today:p

MichaelJackass

TIMMAY! wrote:

I have recently spent some time in the middle east, I went over with a very open mind as to the situation and to politics in the region, not knowing very much about it at the time. Since then I have read extensivly on the subject and tried to see things from both sides. To sum up I can empathise greatly with the Arabs, and am absolutly appauled at the State of Israel.

Whats the other side to the story that I am missing???
How can a Jew born in Israel in the last twenty years justify, forcibly moving palastineans from their homes, shooting them and improsining them behind a wall; not dissimilar to the Iron Curtain wall of Berlin.???
How can the rest of the world stand by and let this happen??

Today the palastineans who are at this stage desperate, are about to fall apart, the only leaders who they can respect are 'terrorists' and theirfore the international community cannot deal with them. This is a situation which will just get worse and worse, I really can see no end to the torture of these poor people. Where will it end????

I am really just trying to understand the issues, not having a go at anyone and I would be interested to get a knowlegable discussion going.

What Planet are you living on I have lived in Israel with both arab and jew for10 years your obviously and trolling idiot, the palestinians by are far are terrorists clear and simple, Israel is a state with the right to exist and not get any agression in any form of manner, were you with the Moronic Peace leftist gob****es or are you a niaeve plonker...

Your opinon is flawd full of holes and your Anti-semtic jibes and rants are the words of a fool now go and live with your lovely Palestinians and watch how they torture,opressed and abuse their own


Come back to earth and take your head out of your arse

MichaelJackass

EireRoadUser wrote:

Why does Israel need any ?

Because they are surrounded by Murdering Arab swine that want to carry out Nazi,Hitler type tactics and kill them all, they are justified to have then and if necessary irradicate most of the middle east if necessary and do us all a favour as the arabs are frankly depressing boring and down right murderous