Most senior UVF leaders were 'British agents'

axer

Earthman wrote:

Cough I'll be the one to order a thread back on topic around here thanks.

Yes Master, Sir

Earthman wrote:

I dont know what they will do.I do know that theres more chance of a public inquiry and answers when it comes to government violence or inspired violence than there is for paramilitary violence.

With respect, theres a lot more accountability from the actions of a governments forces than that of the likes of the IRA or loyalism.Ok your point is that governments should have better standards.I agree they should.
Where I dont agree is that they should be constricted in their persuit of crime and the methods that they use.
Their methods should of course be ultimately accountable and reviewed as and when necessary.Thats something that does actually happen, though not always.It never happens with paramilitaries.

I am not saying governments should have better standards - I am saying the British Government should have better standards if what we read is their standards. How can people be expected to trust them (or the PSNI) in the north (and elsewhere) if we hear things like this coming out every so often. A government should not need to be compared to a terrorist organisation in order to look like a "better" organisation. I am not sure of the answer but has any british police officer or british army officer EVER being prosecuted by the British government for dispicable actions taken by them on behalf of the British Government since or before the troubles began?

Zebra3

Sad to see some people aren't really bothered about Loyalists being used by the British establishment to murder Irish citizens.

A Dub in Glasgo

The gist seems to be:
Some people who oppose violence do not get too hung up about state murder and terrorism because the state will investigate itself when found out and it can be held accountable by the voters whereas paramilitary murder and terrorism is evil and nobody is accountable. The latter point ignores the fact that paramilitary murder is subject to the rule of law (which, in my book, is being held accountable for your actions) whereas state murder is not.

There is very little evidence to suggest that the British state investigates or punishes those responsible for state murder and terrorism. As for the British state being accountable for their dirty little war, that is a laugh.

Cork

ghostdancer wrote:

i'm presuming his point is that all the usual Sinn Féin/Republican bashers couldn't really care less about murder, they only come out of the woodwork when it suits their agenda, but that's just how i'm reading it.

When should we expect people coming out of the woodwork about the Robert McCartney murder?

Democrats believe in up holding the laws of this country and could not care more about murder.

This tread is about senior UVF leaders being 'British agents' - I won't even mention the track record of SF/IRA with regards murders.

Sand

The gist seems to be:
Some people who oppose violence do not get too hung up about state murder and terrorism because the state will investigate itself when found out and it can be held accountable by the voters whereas paramilitary murder and terrorism is evil and nobody is accountable. The latter point ignores the fact that paramilitary murder is subject to the rule of law (which, in my book, is being held accountable for your actions) whereas state murder is not.

There is very little evidence to suggest that the British state investigates or punishes those responsible for state murder and terrorism. As for the British state being accountable for their dirty little war, that is a laugh.

The gist is that its not a shocker that the British have agents in terrorist organisations. Its hows they defeated SFIRA after all.

Given these agents were recruited *from* terrorist organisations rather than being inserted into them, its not a shocker that these agents were disreputable and less than morally wholesome to begin with. Donaldson for example was part of an organisation that held mens family hostage to force them to act as suicide bombers.

Its also well known that the British security forces running these agents often decided that the information from an agent was worth more than arresting them for committing crimes. This is the whole justification for recruiting them in the first place. Its a judgement call and its clear they made the wrong call on many occassions.

And the only reason you can post a link to that story is because of a British investigation into the activities of their agents. Hence the if youre looking for proof of British investigating their crimes, you posted it yourself. What is the purpose of a thread that tells us what we already knew, and confirms that the British are investigating it?

This thread is just a boring "whataboutery" effort. Whilst wailing about the British being held accountable, no Provo is demanding that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness - who may hold power in any executive - be held accountable "for their dirty little war". No Provo has yet demanded that the court process be respected and all discussion on the topic be halted, "innocent until proven guilty lads!" No Provo has demanded that we "move on". No Provo has argued that 10 Downing Street has little or no control over its followers, despite speaking for them. I guess theyre holding on for the next time the Provos are caught publically doing what they do best. None of the Provo outrage here is principled. Its just standard Brits=Evil, therefore Provos=Good.

I was so tempted to just copy and paste a typical Provo post from say the McCartney murder and just change the names appropriately but Provos dont seem to get irony or shame so it would be a waste of time.

Look at this way - The Provos support the GFA. The GFA calls for no one to be held accountable for their crimes, for everyone to "move on". Hence this is why the British introduced that disgusting piece of legislation for OTRs (Which was pure comedy gold when the Provos realised that their immunity from punishment wasnt going to be presented in terms of what they were due, but instead as a dirty political trade with the British. Provos earnestly believe that they deserve early release, that they deserve not to be jailed for their crimes. This is their due. Theyre politicals after all. Any deal which doesnt recognise their wrongdoing as justified is not acceptable). Now, if you support the GFA you support not holding people accountable for their actions. So get off the high horse.

Sad to see some people aren't really bothered about Loyalists being used by the British establishment to murder Irish citizens.

British citizens I thought? The UVF hasnt murdered anyone in Ireland for quite a while. Either way, what happened was the security forces protected their agents from prosecution for serious crimes. Theres nothing in this case that suggest 10 Downing St was using the UVF to murder drug dealers in some squalid gang war.

It does bother me that the British security forces would protect criminals like that, but not so much as it bothers me to see Gerry Adams on RTE, leader of a terrorist organisation, now seeking power in my country.

How can people be expected to trust them (or the PSNI) in the north (and elsewhere) if we hear things like this coming out every so often.

Yeah, how can we trust people who publically investigate wrong doing by their institutions and agents to ensure standards are high. Tapdancing christ. :rolleyes:

axer

Sand wrote:

Yeah, how can we trust people who publically investigate wrong doing by their institutions and agents to ensure standards are high. Tapdancing christ. :rolleyes:

Investigations that never lead to prosecutions whereby nobody is held responsible. How can a government that was so against the IRA (and others) teach terrorists how to get away with serious crimes and help them to not get prosecuted?

Sand wrote:

This thread is just a boring "whataboutery" effort. Whilst wailing about the British being held accountable, no Provo is demanding that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness - who may hold power in any executive - be held accountable "for their dirty little war". No Provo has yet demanded that the court process be respected and all discussion on the topic be halted, "innocent until proven guilty lads!" No Provo has demanded that we "move on". No Provo has argued that 10 Downing Street has little or no control over its followers, despite speaking for them. I guess theyre holding on for the next time the Provos are caught publically doing what they do best. None of the Provo outrage here is principled. Its just standard Brits=Evil, therefore Provos=Good.

Whats that you are saying? What about the provos?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Snip...... whataboutery.....Snip

To me, that sums up your contibution to the thread

What about SF?
What about the IRA?
What about Denis Donaldson?
What about Provo murder?
What about Provo terrorism?
What about the terrorism of 1916?
What about McCartney?
What about Omagh?
What about calling members of boards Provos?

Flex

Sand wrote:

British citizens I thought?

No actually, Irish citizens. As Irish as you, perhaps even more so.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

With respect, theres a lot more accountability from the actions of a governments forces than that of the likes of the IRA or loyalism..

Can you give examples of accountability for the state murdering civilians please?

Best I can think of is the Finnucane and Rosemary Nelson inquiry which are recent investigations which were initially refused by British govt, they are still ongoing and have taken many years without a single prosecution yet.

I do remember the very rare case of 2 Scottish soldiers who were convicted of murdering a Belfast teenager but let back into the Army in the 90's!!

I don't remember any soldiers/ruc being convicted of murdering the couple hundred unarmed people during the troubles yet?

Plus the collusion aspects of loyalist murders have yet to be investigated properly!

gurramok

gurramok wrote:

Can you give examples of accountability for the state murdering civilians please?

You forgot the bloody sunday tribunal.
Fat chance of getting a tribunal into IRA murders...

axer

Earthman wrote:

You forgot the bloody sunday tribunal.

The one that the Irish Government had to request (and supply a huge amount of evidence to before the British Government would even look at it again) as the British Government had done sweet fúck all to find the truth in 1972 with the Widgery report. Thanks - great example of British accountability.

Earthman wrote:

Fat chance of getting a tribunal into IRA murders...

what about the provos?...

I disagree

The Irish government also have several things to hide relating to the troubles. Files concerning the Dublin and monaghan bombings have disappeared which could have implicated the British crown forces in the whole affair.

I disagree

There are many unanswered questions about the infiltration of the Gardaí by the IRA which seems to have been swept under the carpet. I think the British were up to their neks in illegal activity ranging from conspiring to cause explosions and directing Loyalist murder squads but we have to stand back and realise that the authorities in the Republic have a slightly shady past. Personally I would like to see the whole truth emerging but we have to be realistic and understand that it won't.

axer

axer wrote:

The one that the Irish Government had to request (and supply a huge amount of evidence to before the British Government would even look at it again) as the British Government had done sweet fúck all to find the truth in 1972 with the Widgery report. Thanks - great example of British accountability.

I see so,there'd be a tribunal into IRA murders,if the Irish govt campaigned for it... dont think so.

what about the provos?...

They're held in higher regard in this thread by some apparently than elected governments which is wrong if you believe in democracy.

The same posters can keep trying the whataboutery as their only answer it seems to questions about those associated with Republicans who are now besmirching the reasonable attempts by republicans to drive some sort of wedge between themseves and the IRA.

This thread appears alongside a thread running a few days discussing the other side.I didnt come down in the last shower lads.I know whats going on here.
Try to be at least a tad subtle by maybe bringing up your angst not adjacent to a thread you dont like but perhaps on its own.

Thread closed.