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Leargas 7.30 tonight
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fricatus wrote:I'm from Waterford, living in Dublin, but making firm plans to move home soon, which has meant that I've been househunting for the past couple of months. I'm broadly in favour of the boundary extension, but there is one big question that I think has not been discussed thoroughly enough.
Does it really make sense to develop Ferrybank? There is only one bridge, and the second one being built will not be ready for about three more years, and even then it will not really be practical to use it for commuting on account of the toll that will be levied.
Every time I looked at a house in Ferrybank, this is what I thought. The houses were very nice, the locations likewise. And the prices were lower than elsewhere in the city. However, the area is just not well connected to the rest of the city and this had an effect on my final decision.
Any further development of Ferrybank will just exacerbate traffic at Rice Bridge. Given that areas south of the river have better connections to the main destination areas of the city (industrial estate, hospital, WIT, city centre), doesn't it make more sense to keep development in these areas?
The way I see it, everything to Cork/Dungarvan/Dublin/Estate will go on the bypass. Rice bridge will be like a brdige that serves greater ferrybank only and connects to the city. I think the capacity is there. There are only 7,000 people living in the proposed boundary area & ferrybank, compared to the 45,000 on the south side of the river. I think it could increase to at least double that before there were any problems.0 -
I have lived in Waterford since 1990 but at every stage am 101% involved in the anti land grab campaign as are almost all KIlkenny people I know in Waterford City.
Being from Waterford seems to mean very little to a fair whack of the people I know here. Some on this thread seem to say they don't care or wouldn't care if a chunk of their county was taken over by Tipp or anywhere else. Maybe a bit tongue in cheek in some cases but more than 50% of my Waterford neighbours & work colleagues do actually admit to feeling like that.
On the other hand being from Kilkenny is a huge deal to the bulk of its people in both Kilkenny city & county. Yes its mainly GAA orientated but that's what comes if you live in a county where can book a few days holidays each September in the knowledge that your county might be involved in a small little hurling match at Croke Park!
Kilkenny county council have ignored the South part of the county but as someone living in Waterford city, well, its not exactly Utopia land on the other side of the Bridge either.
The planning that has went into the Ballybegs right through to even the build up of traffic from the Tramore Road to the new city bypass with the subsequent flooding issues hardly shows foresight. Let waterford start dealing with their own issues in a professional manner first before they come along with a policy which is set to divide & conquer.
Hands off Kilkenny !!!!0 -
kilkennycat2004 wrote:I have lived in Waterford since 1990 but at every stage am 101% involved in the anti land grab campaign as are almost all KIlkenny people I know in Waterford City.
Being from Waterford seems to mean very little to a fair whack of the people I know here. Some on this thread seem to say they don't care or wouldn't care if a chunk of their county was taken over by Tipp or anywhere else. Maybe a bit tongue in cheek in some cases but more than 50% of my Waterford neighbours & work colleagues do actually admit to feeling like that.
On the other hand being from Kilkenny is a huge deal to the bulk of its people in both Kilkenny city & county. Yes its mainly GAA orientated but that's what comes if you live in a county where can book a few days holidays each September in the knowledge that your county might be involved in a small little hurling match at Croke Park!
Kilkenny county council have ignored the South part of the county but as someone living in Waterford city, well, its not exactly Utopia land on the other side of the Bridge either.
The planning that has went into the Ballybegs right through to even the build up of traffic from the Tramore Road to the new city bypass with the subsequent flooding issues hardly shows foresight. Let waterford start dealing with their own issues in a professional manner first before they come along with a policy which is set to divide & conquer.
Hands off Kilkenny !!!!
Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?
It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.
And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.
What complete and utter waffle.0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?
It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.
And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.
What complete and utter waffle.
Note well your second point in relation to choice... it is one of my main (of many) arguments against this entire landgrab;Waterford people living in Ferrybank et al. CHOOSE to live there too as did the KK person in Waterford!!
They can't suddenly decide, oh, wait a minute i'd rather live in, be part of Waterford City but live in another county.;Then demand that the border be changed to accomodate their own particular loyalties.
The lack of services is such a convenient argument then for them to use, when in reality they want to live in our county and be part of Waterford at the same time-can't have it both ways i'm afraid...0 -
mfitzy wrote:Note well your second point in relation to choice... it is one of my main (of many) arguments against this entire landgrab;Waterford people living in Ferrybank et al. CHOOSE to live there too as did the KK person in Waterford!!
They can't suddenly decide, oh, wait a minute i'd rather live in, be part of Waterford City but live in another county.;Then demand that the border be changed to accomodate their own particular loyalties.
The lack of services is such a convenient argument then for them to use, when in reality they want to live in our county and be part of Waterford at the same time-can't have it both ways i'm afraid...
Yes, but the difference is that South Kilkenny is already North Waterford. We're probably outnumbering ye 2 - 1 as it stands.....:D
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This, "My County, Your County" rubbish that I am hearing is very childish and small minded.. FFS we are all Irish. Can we not do what is right for the greater good I.E (Irish/South East Economy)
The sooner the Minister for the Environment (Dick Roche) appoints an unbiased independent boundary commission to examine all boundary extension proposals the better.0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Yes, but the difference is that South Kilkenny is already North Waterford. We're probably outnumbering ye 2 - 1 as it stands.....:D
Exactly the invader mentality i've been talking about before with Waterford-how are we ever going to have a properly developed region with this kind of attidude????
We will fight this tooth and nail, you can be assured-no neighbouring county is going to be given an inch -hands off OUR county!!
And if you don't like it you can move back over the river to the wonderful Waterford City, where services etc are clearly so superior and all top notch with no problems or inadequacies whatsoever...
And lets be clear about this debate-we in KK are being honest about county loyalty being one of our main reasons to oppose this. On the other hand we haven't seen Waterford come forward and say, yes, the main reason we back this move is because of our loyalty to Waterford when it is patently obvoius that their loyalty lies with Waterford and want it to gain at our expense.
Bards-again you make good and very valid points as to how we need to cop ourselves on this region, start pulling together on roads, university etc etc.
I have said enough on this issue to date, let the independent boundary commission work something out so we can all move on and discuss how best to progressively develop the S East-already Carlow is giving soudings it would prefer be in the East region-the last thing we need is to fragment what we alrerady have here.0 -
Got this from www.upthedeise.com
I was browsing the Internet and came across Kilkenny County Council’s response to Waterford’s proposed border extension and to be honest I was taken aback by what I read! You can get the executive summary of the response here:
http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/publications/council_publications/default.aspx?id=1774
Their first argument is about the current size of Waterford city and it’s reach into Waterford county stating there is enough land there for development and that there is no need to expand into Kilkenny as a result, however this ignores the fact that a large proportion of Waterford’s city centre population lives North of the river (6000 or so I believe) and do not come under Waterford’s administration area, which means they have different, and sometimes inferior services (e.g. postal service, most people put via Waterford to get their post a day earlier), they cannot vote on city issues and they are not recorded under the census as being part of Waterford city. The only reason this urban population is there is because of the city and from an administration point of view our city is lop sided geographically because it cannot expand in a radial fashion and also from a population point of view also as these people are not included in the statistic. In the last census Waterford had a population of approx 46K, this would have been at least 52K had the boundary been where it is proposed to be. In European terms Waterford is therefore not really a city as I believe the minimum is 50K. Fingers crossed we will have reached this once the 2006 census figures come in. So their first point although technically valid ignores the fact that the city centre has not been allowed to expand naturally and as a result our city and its people from both sides of the bridge have had a city with reduced powers as Waterford is seen as a smaller city than it actually is which means that it may not be able to compete fairly in securing resources against the likes of Galway and Limerick. I would urge Kilkenny people in the area to get behind this extension for this reason alone so that the major city of the region is viewed in a more realistic way from a national and international perspective.
Their second argument centres around co-operation between administrations in the area. If Kilkenny Co. Council were interested in this area, it would be very evident and we would see roads of a quality equal to that of the Waterford City and Co. Waterford (and even Kilkenny Town). In my opinion these are the worst roads I have ever driven on and are totally inappropriate for a national route and it is a stranglehold Kilkenny have on our city and the people of South Kilkenny. I was driving home from Dublin recently and many of the Cat’s eyes (pardon the pun) are either ineffective or have been removed, this adds to the danger of driving on already treacherous roads.
Their third point re-iterates collaboration between the urban. By putting this on paper they suggest Waterford isn’t interested in co-operation, yet we have put in a proposal for University of the South East and the quality of roads exiting Co. Waterford are very good.
Point four is a very serious issue. They say if the boundary extension is successful it will undermine the financial position of Kilkenny Co. Council. They state that they would lose 1.8 Million in commercial rates and that this would result in a net loss to the county of 1.1M. What I read from this is that the area in question is subsidising the rest of Co. Kilkenny to the tune of 1.1M and that the money being made in the area is not being spent on the area it is made in, as it rightly should. It would seem from reading the above that the money is being taken from the urban centre attached to Waterford city and spent elsewhere. People in South Kilkenny should consider that the next time they vote. They also state in this section “in recent years Kilkenny County Council has invested substantial amounts of its own resources in developing the roads, water, waste water and other services in the area”. Does this mean they do not consider this area a part of Kilkenny? Why would they say they are spending their own resources on something that’s not theirs? It seems they think of it only as a source of income rather than something they need to invest in. They would argue also that the port is what we’re after? Well the port would not be there except for Waterford and it was originally in Waterford anyway so it should be part of the city, without doubt.
Their fifth point is that Waterford has no strong vision for the area. I would suggest this is because the area is not a part of Waterford City and thus Waterford cannot afford to spend resources planning on something that is not theirs other than speculatively. They also suggest Kilkenny has demonstrated a strong vision for the area. Well the evidence is over the past 50 years there has been no vision (for example the roundabout at the Limerick junction) and as a result Waterford deserves a shot.
The sixth and final point is the most insulting to the people of the city and surroundings in both South Kilkenny and Waterford. It suggests that granting the border extension would seriously alter the social and cultural structure of Kilkenny. I would ask how? I mean these people already work, socialize and are educated with Waterford people and thus it is a shared Irish culture, a culture based on Waterford City’s 1000 year history and one that both sides of the river should be extremely proud of. We all have relations on both sides of the river so I really cannot understand this argument, to me it is like they do not care for our culture and that is very insulting indeed.
If the main concern of Kilkenny people in the are is a Hurling / GAA issue then I personally think that the GAA should reassure Kilkenny people that the hurlers of the area will not have to play for Waterford if they so choose. I don’t think a single Waterford person would have a problem with Kilkenny people wanting to be a part of Kilkenny GAA, and for the borders not to change from a GAA perspective. This is the very least that should be done for these people and I personally would offer my help and I’m sure other Waterford people would love to help in lobbying for this.
Here is their conclusion and my summary:
1. Is not needed to provide development capacity in the City,
It does in order to develop the city in a natural radial fashion (why have people living 3 or four miles into Waterford city when they can live a mile into Kilkenny and be able to Walk to the city centre)
2. Runs contrary to the current regional, national and international best practice approaches to planning and development which are based on inter-authority co-operation, not boundary changes
There is no evidence of co-operation from Kilkenny, just look at the road to Dublin!
3. Makes no financial sense
To Kilkenny… this part of the county is subsidising the rest of the county. Also it makes sense to Waterford as it would push up our visible population making us more competitive nationally, which is good for the region.
4. Demonstrates absolutely no vision or practical benefits for the people and businesses in the area
This lack of vision has been demonstrated well enough by Kilkenny Co. Council over the last 50 years, Waterford could do no worse and should be given the chance. If you take a look at Waterford city itself you will see there has been vision over the past 20 years.
5. Is based primarily on the City’s financial interests, not on its potential contribution to developing the area in particular, or the South-East region as a whole.
Waterford city is the only chance the South East has for University, motorway etc. etc, maybe Kilkenny should get behind it for once as it is good for the entire region
6. Would alter the community, cultural and sporting identity of the area and the County
How can it alter a joint Urban culture that has been present for hundreds of years?
7. Would not provide for convenient and effective local government.
Waterford City Council should be willing to engage with the other local authorities to a much greater extent in the planning and development of the South-East region as a whole.
People in that part of Kilenny already put via Waterford on their post, but unfortunately have to pay their car tax 30 miles away from the city, surely it is more effective to have an administration 1-3 miles away than 30?
In my opinion I think all of the above are invalid and Kilkenny have presented no real argument as to why the border should not be extended.0 -
Where do I start with this one...!
Firstly, all your points are from a Waterford perspective only.All KK co co arguments are valid and as for sudsidising the rest of us in the county what rubbish- do you think 1.8 million in rates goes very far these days?
It would hardly resurface a few km of road, let alone provide infrasructure for the whole county.That is very insulting to KK people who pay their taxes and rates as do Waterford.
I would love if KK were situated beside some other county other than Waterford- this issue woudn't arise and we could work progressivel as you point out on roads and university. But how can this happen with so much bad feeling hanging in the air over a landgrab???
I support a prosperous and competitive Waterford City for sure, but please not at our expense. My county and I will reiterate this point, means a lot to me- I am deeply offended that a neighbouring county would see fit to have a right to control a big chunk of it.
On the N9, KK co co are most definitely not to blame- our successive TDs here are for not lobbying and ensuring it was upgraded.It is finally being upgraded to a dual carriageway over next few years.
Waterford people are blindly failing to see this from point of view in KK; we are the ones being asked to give up something.What is in this for us???You'll probably say a stronger regional city, but so what?How is this going to impact positively on the ordinary people who live in KK, not in Waterford??0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Some facts:
1. South Kilkenny would be a wasteland were it not for Waterford City. It depends on the City for it's very existence in the form of all health, educational, and infrastructural services.
And ? Whats your point ?2. Waterford is not a 'main town' - it is the Regional capital. Elsewhere in the world a city is allowed to develop in a radial fashion - even in the US where it crosses STATE boundaries.
And ? Just because the US does it doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean we should do it.3. An extension is invevitable. It will happen (not this time but in the next ten years).
And why does it have to be under the juristiction of Waterford County Council ? Since no Waterford people seem to care about grabbing other peoples land then whats wrong with giving Waterford City to Kilkenny County Council and let them develop it.4. The primary argument put forward in Leargas was.....hurling. It showed the narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness of your county compatriots.
Some things are important to some people. Hurling is a tradition, a way of life to many people, it defines themselves and their communities. Whether or not you think thats a good reason or not makes no difference whatsoever. It makes a difference to the people affected.5. There are no other 'towns' of similar size in the South East. Waterford is a City.
So ?6. Kilkenny people came across as 'hicks' because of their backward looking obsession with the game of hurling. Their life revolves around it because their county is devoid of anything else.
Funny enough comment coming from someone from "Irelands oldest City". How would you like your traditions taken from you ? Hurling is a huge part of peoples lives in Kilkenny AND in Waterford.0 -
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Freddie59 wrote:Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?
It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.
And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.
What complete and utter waffle.
Your just showing your ignorance in some of those comments doing yourself or your county no favours whatsoever.
Mention Waterford anywhere & people think of Glass.
Mention Kilkenny anywhere & people think hurling.
If it was vice versa I don't think Kilkenny people would have left a crystal factory in its county die a death in the same way as folk in Waterford city hardly made a squeak when their county neighbours in Dungarvan were having their Crystal plant closed down recently.
As I said in the earlier post Waterford folk just do not have the same sense of identity as in Kilkenny. Probably in the main its down to GAA but that is our culture & one we will defend in the same way as we play it.
Their is nothing to stop the area being developed in the same way as gateshead & Newcastle operate for instance. Landgrabs are for previous generations.0 -
Are you unable to read?klash wrote:And ? Whats your point ?klash wrote:And ? Just because the US does it doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean we should do it.
It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.klash wrote:And why does it have to be under the juristiction of Waterford County Council ? Since no Waterford people seem to care about grabbing other peoples land then whats wrong with giving Waterford City to Kilkenny County Council and let them develop it.
Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).klash wrote:Some things are important to some people. Hurling is a tradition, a way of life to many people, it defines themselves and their communities. Whether or not you think thats a good reason or not makes no difference whatsoever. It makes a difference to the people affected.
And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.klash wrote:Funny enough comment coming from someone from "Irelands oldest City". How would you like your traditions taken from you ? Hurling is a huge part of peoples lives in Kilkenny AND in Waterford.
It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?
Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.0 -
kilkennycat2004 wrote:Your just showing your ignorance in some of those comments doing yourself or your county no favours whatsoever..
Exactly the comment I would expect.
A huge generator of reveue to people in Waterford City and most of the population of South Kilkenny down through the years.kilkennycat2004 wrote:Mention Waterford anywhere & people think of Glasskilkennycat2004 wrote:Mention Kilkenny anywhere & people think hurling.
Again the hurling. Pathetic. And the complete opposite of the above in financial terms.kilkennycat2004 wrote:If it was vice versa I don't think Kilkenny people would have left a crystal factory in its county die a death in the same way as folk in Waterford city hardly made a squeak when their county neighbours in Dungarvan were having their Crystal plant closed down recently.
And how exactly would this have been achieved, given the level of employment which has been generated in South Kilkenny in the past 50 years. You wouldn't have had to worry about it in the first place. Hold on - sorry - you probably could have had a hurling match to forget all about it.kilkennycat2004 wrote:As I said in the earlier post Waterford folk just do not have the same sense of identity as in Kilkenny. Probably in the main its down to GAA but that is our culture & one we will defend in the same way as we play it.
GAA is your culture? Funny - I thought it was a part of our overall culture in this country (albeit an important one), along with our other great traditions, such as literary, musical, etc. But - hey - if there's nothing else of note in your county........kilkennycat2004 wrote:Their is nothing to stop the area being developed in the same way as gateshead & Newcastle operate for instance. Landgrabs are for previous generations.
Hmmm. A GAA fan quoting the auld enemy as an example. Well done.0 -
Look! Stop the Maaaadness!!
If the boundary extension went through, do you realise that all of the people in the Slieverue, Newrath, Ferrybank and other border areas would all be forced to do their shopping, socialising, and go to work in Waterford!!!
Thats just not....
Oh..
Hang on...
Sorry.. scrap all that... they do all of that in Waterford anyways. Hmm. Extend the boundary and let the people living in these areas have a share of the prosperity of Waterfords expansion. They're financing and driving it. They work and spend their wages in Waterford.0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Are you unable to read?
It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.
Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).
And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.
It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?
Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.
His point is big deal in in your arrogant assertion that S kk would be a wasteland if it were not for Waterford- what complete and utter rubbish;
-thats the same as saying , and I refer to the following irish examples;
there would be nothing in Wicklow, Kildare, Meath, Laois etc without Dublin
there would be nothing in Clare and North Tipp without Limerick
there would be nothing in south Roscommon without Athlone
All of the above are not suddenly going to move within the urban boundary that influences them so much, so why should south KK.
How flawed to blame the people of Kilkenny for holding development in the south east- I can tell you one thing for sure, if this goes ahead there wouldn't be any future co-operation from the KK side on thing like a university etc- we will simply look to the Midlands region or the East instead.
And are you aware that KK currently is strongly backing the university bid (in Waterord I might add) and we also pay an annual subsidy in support of that white elephant airport down near Tramore??
And as for being a 'backward' looking people, what a disgraceful insult to us.This landgrab is about much more than just hurling which claim, it is about protecting the integrity of our county against the greed and arrogance of Waterford City.0 -
mfitzy wrote:
And are you aware that KK currently is strongly backing the university bid (in Waterord I might add) and we also pay an annual subsidy in support of that white elephant airport down near Tramore??
And as for being a 'backward' looking people, what a disgraceful insult to us.This landgrab is about much more than just hurling which claim, it is about protecting the integrity of our county against the greed and arrogance of Waterford City.
I take it you are not aware of the ever increasing passenger numbers at the South East regional Airport in Waterford.
http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story.asp?j=21407
You say that its much more than hurling which is been suggested here, but after reading through this entire thread, I fail to see how. The basis of all your points always refer back to Hurling. One of the best post to turn up in this thread has to be trotter one which is so so true.Look! Stop the Maaaadness!!
If the boundary extension went through, do you realise that all of the people in the Slieverue, Newrath, Ferrybank and other border areas would all be forced to do their shopping, socialising, and go to work in Waterford!!!
Thats just not....
Oh..
Hang on...
Sorry.. scrap all that... they do all of that in Waterford anyways. Hmm. Extend the boundary and let the people living in these areas have a share of the prosperity of Waterfords expansion. They're financing and driving it. They work and spend their wages in Waterford.0 -
Wow...A whole 70.000 people used the airport, comparable figures for Dublin stand at about 20 million.
I've never met anybody that used that airport in my life- fact.Anyway, thats not the main issue here.
Again, just because people work, shop etc in Waterford doesn't automatically mean it should become part of it.And what about the many Wexford and Tipp folk who work in Waterford; I'm sure they would really love to be told, sorry you're working here lads- you should be part of Waterford too!
Look at all those people from Meath, Kildare et al that work in Dublin- they like us want to keep their identity.
I refer also to Bertie Ahern's thoughts on the landgrab down at the Piltown Show last September- He stated clearly that he is with the people of KK on this one, and that he as a Dub couldn't stand to see part of his county become part of Wicklow or Meath.Fair play to the man, after 10 years in office he's finally speaking some sense!
If you read my arguments, you will find very little reference to hurling; thats far too simplistic an approach for me for opposing this landgrab.0 -
mfitzy wrote:Wow...A whole 70.000 people used the airport, comparable figures for Dublin stand at about 20 million.
I've never met anybody that used that airport in my life- fact.Anyway, thats not the main issue here.
Dont be so stupid. You cant compare this regional airport to our main Airport which operate flight to destinations all across the world where as the SERA in Waterford only operate to 3 routes if I'm not mistaken. If you are going to compare it to another, make sure you compare it like for like.
The likes of New Ross have some sort of infrastructure in place which enable those inhabitants to stay and do their shopping and socialising there. What have we got in South Kilkenny. Sweet FA. Kilkenny don't give a toss about Ferrybank and its surrounding area. Just face FACTS.
With regards to Bertie, you really cant take any notice as to what he says. Just stop for a minute and think of where he was and who he was with when he made those comments. You van be sure as hell if he was in Waterford City with Waterford city councillors, he would have made the same remarks only this time in favour of Waterfords claims.0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Are you unable to read?
I'm well able to read, i'm just not able to see any sense in what your trying to write.It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.
Ok. So shall we invade Iraq too ?
Your talking about a country that would kill 100,000 Iraq's to save a cent on a gallon of petrol.Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).
And again whats your point ?
Since all you care about is the development of the city and all Kilkenny peoples objections are about taking their counties land then why doesn't Waterford city go under the juristiction of Kilkenny County council ? Since you have no problems with losing or gaining land.And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.
To prevent what ? Your talking about taking a part of their county, a part of their history and tradition. You obviously have no respect for either of the above so you can't understand what it means to people.It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?
1. I'm not from Kilkenny, Waterford or the South-East.
2. The GAA is the single greatest community organisation in the world. It has kept young and old fit and healthy, it has provided entertainment for large numbers of people, it has gave every community in Ireland a sense of being and pride in their place.
This isn't America thank god and we all don't think the only thing important in life is financial gain.Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.
And AGAIN i ask you, if its so NOT important to you, why don't you let Kilkenny Co Co take over Waterford City ? It'll develop the region and they'll be no objections from Kilkenny people and since no Waterford people care about their history or tradition then they'll be no objections from them either.0 -
The simple fact is that it makes more logical sense to administer this area from Waterford City and not from 50 Km away. That is all we are talking about.
You can still belong to Kilkenny Co Co. and play sport with that county. The rates should be ringfenced so that they are spent in this area with subsidies from Waterford City Council, to improve infrastructure and amenities in the area. This area can then be incorporated into the Waterford PLUTS so that it can develop in a balanced way.
The border afterall is an imaginary line drawn on a map (by the British) and should not be set in stone but should be able to mirror reality and be flexible.
Likewise, other areas in the South East are in the same predicament. It makes no sense for carrick-on-suir to have two administrative areas and the same goes for Carlow. When you have a borough or City council area expanding into a neighbouring County it makes logical sense to move the boundary so that the bigger urban area can manage and grow in an organic and organised way.
We have enough red-tape in this country and these things should be streamlined and we should be trying to get rid of duplication in all our government departments.
As it stands people living on the boundary have to approch two local authorities when it comes to planning thus incurring more expense.
I don't know if anyone read the An Bord Pleanala report about Kilkenny's proposed shopping area for Ferrybank but it was scathing in it's conclusion with regard to Kilkenny Co Co planning dept in that it took no notice of it's own PLUTS for the area in question. The Co Co was more concerned how to make as much money in rates as possible to the detriment of Waterford City centre.
This is what Waterford City Council are trying to avoid. Competition for rates is bad for planning, leads to out of town shopping centres, creates donought cities which are empty in the middle, and makes them very car dependent because it does not create critical mass which lends itself easily to public transport. There is an article in this weeks Kilkenny People about how the borough council are concerened that this may happen to them.
In Conclusion. In order to create an area of sufficient critical mass demanding full facilities such as better health care, University. Roads, Rail Airport etc. then the boundary change must go ahead (Dont' tell me that people in kilkenny/South Tipp/South Wexford/South Carlow would rather go to Dublin for these things).
If someone can provide a logical and economic argument how we can fulfill all these things without change I would be most open to hear it. but please leave the GAA out of it.0 -
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Just an interesting fact that I was told recently , would anyone know what the biggest employer in Co Kilkenny is ? What springs to mind , Smithwicks was all I could think of there was'nt anywhere else sprang to mind .
I was way wrong the answer is Bausch and Lomb ! Thats the Bausch and Lomb on the industrial park in Waterford City ! And that figure came from the company themselves so they should know , so its about time Kilkenny people started to wake up and smell the coffee , the boundary extension will be good for them , without Waterford City they'd have nothing and all this arguing over being administered from somewhere different is ridiculous .
In fact some people are beginning to suspect Kilkenny CC are starting to neglect the area in question already in anticipation of the extension being granted and thats the Co Co they want to stay with .
Personally and most Waterford people I know could'nt give a s##t about who Kilkenny people support in hurling good luck to them , but hurling does'nt put food on the table and they should start to realise that and see they're not being taken over by some Nazi state as they seem to think0 -
kilkennycat2004 wrote:If it was vice versa I don't think Kilkenny people would have left a crystal factory in its county die a death in the same way as folk in Waterford city hardly made a squeak when their county neighbours in Dungarvan were having their Crystal plant closed down recently.
Would that be the same way that folks over there prevented the closure of Clover Meats and the National Board and Paper Mills? Glass houses and stones come to mind straight away.
Again ALL of the answers to previous posts revolve around.......HURLING.........while some comment that they're 'glad it's not the USA' and that 'money isn't everything' the cold hard facts are that a City, or region, cannot survive without a vibrant economy. The University, Airport, etc are a vital cog in that economic wheel. Sport is a pastime, a social occurence......not an economic driver. Fact. Live with it.
It will be interesting to see the numbers climb when the airport is able to accomodate jets.
I must say that Meldrew's revelation about the biggest employer in Kilkenny Town is a factory in Waterford City. Proof positive indeed of the economic benefit to the region of a vibrant Waterford City. Case closed.0 -
Companies like Bausch & Lomb, Rexham & AOl Europe are obviously all based in Waterford because its where the IDA decided they were going. KIlkenny, Tipperary or Wexford people owe absolutely nothing to Waterford County Council for working for multi-nationals in a Waterford business park.
All attempts Kilkenny County Council have made to provide shopping & recreational facilities have been snookered by Waterford City Council as they realise the loss of revenue to shops & businesses in Waterford were that to happen.
Waterford County Council is presented by some here as a type of Utopia to Kilkenny people but as someone who has seen them in action let me tell you that this is far from the case. Pop into the local LOI ground some Friday night & see how they maintain the RSC for instance. Its a f**n disgrace.
Have a look at the new link road around Gracedieu with no attempt made to remove knackers caravans as they obviously have nowhere for them. At least two dozen there just a week ago.
The infighting at local level between the city's wards 1, 2 & 3 is probably unprecedented in the country.
And Kilkenny need to be administered by these guys?????
No wonder thanks but no thanks is the response generally.0 -
meldrew wrote:Just an interesting fact that I was told recently , would anyone know what the biggest employer in Co Kilkenny is ? What springs to mind , Smithwicks was all I could think of there was'nt anywhere else sprang to mind .
I was way wrong the answer is Bausch and Lomb ! Thats the Bausch and Lomb on the industrial park in Waterford City ! And that figure came from the company themselves so they should know , so its about time Kilkenny people started to wake up and smell the coffee , the boundary extension will be good for them , without Waterford City they'd have nothing and all this arguing over being administered from somewhere different is ridiculous .
In fact some people are beginning to suspect Kilkenny CC are starting to neglect the area in question already in anticipation of the extension being granted and thats the Co Co they want to stay with .
Personally and most Waterford people I know could'nt give a s##t about who Kilkenny people support in hurling good luck to them , but hurling does'nt put food on the table and they should start to realise that and see they're not being taken over by some Nazi state as they seem to think
I'm tired of listening to the argument about how great the boundary change would be for Kilkenny; how exactly can our county loosing out be anyway good for us.Simple fact it just isn't.
In relation to KK's employers, i'm delighted to say they are mostly indigenous Irish companies, the likes of Glanbia (our biggest single one 600 people), VHI, Banking365 among others. Much more secure than IDA subsidised multinational corporations the likes of Bosch and Lomb or whoever who would leave Ireland at the drop of a hat to places like China etc...
Diageo employ about 80 people at most in the county.
So no, I don't welcome a border move as a great thing for Kilkenny; how on earth could it be. Neither am I going to be grateful to Waterford for 'providing' many KK people with jobs. Big deal, some with argue its bad planning to ringfence all the jobs in an area into one City.
And why shoudn't south KK be administerd from just 50km away; look at far bigger counties like Cork etc, they don't go setting up administerative centres in areas distant fom the Co Co HQ.
I personally couldn't give a hoot about the hurling either.In your own words you use the phrase 'taken over'- it is precisely this superior and condescending attidude we in KK have the biggest problem with.0 -
Freddie59 wrote:Again ALL of the answers to previous posts revolve around.......HURLING.........while some comment that they're 'glad it's not the USA' and that 'money isn't everything' the cold hard facts are that a City, or region, cannot survive without a vibrant economy. The University, Airport, etc are a vital cog in that economic wheel. Sport is a pastime, a social occurence......not an economic driver. Fact. Live with it.
And you still haven't answered any questions put to you.
1. Why must Waterford county council control the City ? Since YOU don't care and according to you, most Waterford people don't care, why not give Waterford city to Kilkenny County Council to administrate because Kilkenny people DO care.
Hypocrisy at its highest, you say KK people should accept it and yet you wouldn't accept it being the other way around.
2. YOU are the one constantly referring to hurling, i answered your references to it because it IS very important to a lot of people. Its obvious you have no sense of tradition or place of pride in your culture or your county, but that doesn't mean no-one else does.
I actually hate the kittens, i'm a hurling man from another county and if they never won another match i would be happy, but i can understand how KK people feel in this position from a GAA perspective and from a traditional perspective. You go to Tipp, Cork or Kilkenny or ANY county with a good football or hurling tradition and ask them would they be willing to give land to "where ever" if it meant giving up X amount of clubs and they'd tell you where to go.
You go to any number of counties in this country and you'll find any number of brilliant players playing for counties that will never win any honours and most of those players would have being given the option of playing for another county who WOULD have had the chance to win honours and 9 times out of 10 they would have refused. Why ? Because they are from that county, they have pride in it, pride in who they are and where they're from.
Declan Browne of Tipperary is at very least in the top 5 Footballers of the past 10 years and he will NEVER win Munster or an All-Ireland with them. He has being offered to play with Kildare and other counties who DO have a chance to win A provincial and/or All-Ireland title and he declined.
What YOU don't seem to understand is a lot of people have as much pride in being from their county as they do being from their Country and even MORE pride in being from their club.
The GAA is an important issue but its not the most important. Kilkenny is Kilkenny, who the hell are Waterford to change that for their own selfish reasons ? I have pride in where i'm from, its not just in sporting terms but in traditional terms and cultural terms. Maybe Sligo Co Co should take over Leitrim because theres nothing in Leitrim and togeather they make a county more capable of winning sporting honours and of financial prosperity. Leitrim people would tell them to F off regardless of if it was a good thing or not.
Hell maybe Ireland would be better off being a part of the UK again, shall we do that ?0 -
Fair play to you Klash, you've it right to a tee our feelings about this landgrab.
I think its unprecdented in the history of Ireland for one county to be told (bullied more like) into accepting a border change all for the benefit of a neighbouring county and then being guilt tripped with bogus arguments about how we are the ones holding up the development of the whole South East region by objecting to such an outrageous demand.
And you're right, they clearly don't have any respect for our county and what it means to us, otherwise they wouln't be trying to 'take over' part of us as they say themselves.0 -
mfitzy wrote:In relation to KK's employers, i'm delighted to say they are mostly indigenous Irish companies, the likes of Glanbia (our biggest single one 600 people), VHI, Banking365 among others. Much more secure than IDA subsidised multinational corporations the likes of Bosch and Lomb or whoever who would leave Ireland at the drop of a hat to places like China etc...
Diageo employ about 80 people at most in the county.
They are still the biggest employer in your town. Fact.mfitzy wrote:So no, I don't welcome a border move as a great thing for Kilkenny; how on earth could it be. Neither am I going to be grateful to Waterford for 'providing' many KK people with jobs. Big deal, some with argue its bad planning to ringfence all the jobs in an area into one City..
Well I suppose your fellow countymen and women who travel the sixty miles or so every day would tend to disagree with you. By the way, roughly how many are actually employed by all those wonderful indigenous 'industries' you mention?
Quite apparently because they ineffective in doing so. If they weren't they would, at the very least, have a decent approach road to their county town. But a Waterford man will be sorting that out very shortly.mfitzy wrote:And why shoudn't south KK be administerd from just 50km away;..mfitzy wrote:I personally couldn't give a hoot about the hurling either.In your own words you use the phrase 'taken over'- it is precisely this superior and condescending attidude we in KK have the biggest problem with.
Nice to know that. Our problem in Waterford is the sheer begrudgery demonstrated by those typified by Dick Dowling in County Kilkenny.0 -
klash wrote:1. Why must Waterford county council control the City ? Since YOU don't care and according to you, most Waterford people don't care, why not give Waterford city to Kilkenny County Council to administrate because Kilkenny people DO care.
Hypocrisy at its highest, you say KK people should accept it and yet you wouldn't accept it being the other way around. ?
Noooooooooooooo. What I said was that I didn't really care whether or not this extension went ahead. But, given the vitriolic reaction of hurling-obsessed locals towards Waterford City I must admit that, in the interests of the region, I would now like to see it happen. After all, it would probably be in the area's interests that an authority with a wider vision than who will win the all-Ireland in September be in control.klash wrote:2. YOU are the one constantly referring to hurling, i answered your references to it because it IS very important to a lot of people. Its obvious you have no sense of tradition or place of pride in your culture or your county, but that doesn't mean no-one else does.
I actually hate the kittens, i'm a hurling man from another county and if they never won another match i would be happy, but i can understand how KK people feel in this position from a GAA perspective and from a traditional perspective. You go to Tipp, Cork or Kilkenny or ANY county with a good football or hurling tradition and ask them would they be willing to give land to "where ever" if it meant giving up X amount of clubs and they'd tell you where to go.
You go to any number of counties in this country and you'll find any number of brilliant players playing for counties that will never win any honours and most of those players would have being given the option of playing for another county who WOULD have had the chance to win honours and 9 times out of 10 they would have refused. Why ? Because they are from that county, they have pride in it, pride in who they are and where they're from.
Declan Browne of Tipperary is at very least in the top 5 Footballers of the past 10 years and he will NEVER win Munster or an All-Ireland with them. He has being offered to play with Kildare and other counties who DO have a chance to win A provincial and/or All-Ireland title and he declined.
What YOU don't seem to understand is a lot of people have as much pride in being from their county as they do being from their Country and even MORE pride in being from their club.
The GAA is an important issue but its not the most important. Kilkenny is Kilkenny, who the hell are Waterford to change that for their own selfish reasons ? I have pride in where i'm from, its not just in sporting terms but in traditional terms and cultural terms. Maybe Sligo Co Co should take over Leitrim because theres nothing in Leitrim and togeather they make a county more capable of winning sporting honours and of financial prosperity. Leitrim people would tell them to F off regardless of if it was a good thing or not.
Hell maybe Ireland would be better off being a part of the UK again, shall we do that ?
Firstly, as far as I'm aware, Kilkenny have not sought a boundary extension into Waterford City - so I have no opinion on a matter which does n ot exist.
Secondly, all of the latter half of your reply above centres around.............the GAA. I rest my case.0 -
mfitzy wrote:Fair play to you Klash, you've it right to a tee our feelings about this landgrab.
Of course he has:rolleyes:mfitzy wrote:I think its unprecdented in the history of Ireland for one county to be told (bullied more like) into accepting a border change all for the benefit of a neighbouring county and then being guilt tripped with bogus arguments about how we are the ones holding up the development of the whole South East region by objecting to such an outrageous demand..
Bogus arguments? The neglect of an entire area? The n9? Need I go on?mfitzy wrote:And you're right, they clearly don't have any respect for our county and what it means to us, otherwise they wouln't be trying to 'take over' part of us as they say themselves.
The lack of respect is self-inflicted; caused by the constant begrudgery and petty-minded outlook practiced towards Waterford City by a certain element in South Kilkenny.0 -
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Bards wrote:The simple fact is that it makes more logical sense to administer this area from Waterford City and not from 50 Km away. That is all we are talking about.
You can still belong to Kilkenny Co Co. and play sport with that county. The rates should be ringfenced so that they are spent in this area with subsidies from Waterford City Council, to improve infrastructure and amenities in the area. This area can then be incorporated into the Waterford PLUTS so that it can develop in a balanced way.
The border afterall is an imaginary line drawn on a map (by the British) and should not be set in stone but should be able to mirror reality and be flexible.
Likewise, other areas in the South East are in the same predicament. It makes no sense for carrick-on-suir to have two administrative areas and the same goes for Carlow. When you have a borough or City council area expanding into a neighbouring County it makes logical sense to move the boundary so that the bigger urban area can manage and grow in an organic and organised way.
We have enough red-tape in this country and these things should be streamlined and we should be trying to get rid of duplication in all our government departments.
As it stands people living on the boundary have to approch two local authorities when it comes to planning thus incurring more expense.
I don't know if anyone read the An Bord Pleanala report about Kilkenny's proposed shopping area for Ferrybank but it was scathing in it's conclusion with regard to Kilkenny Co Co planning dept in that it took no notice of it's own PLUTS for the area in question. The Co Co was more concerned how to make as much money in rates as possible to the detriment of Waterford City centre.
This is what Waterford City Council are trying to avoid. Competition for rates is bad for planning, leads to out of town shopping centres, creates donought cities which are empty in the middle, and makes them very car dependent because it does not create critical mass which lends itself easily to public transport. There is an article in this weeks Kilkenny People about how the borough council are concerened that this may happen to them.
In Conclusion. In order to create an area of sufficient critical mass demanding full facilities such as better health care, University. Roads, Rail Airport etc. then the boundary change must go ahead (Dont' tell me that people in kilkenny/South Tipp/South Wexford/South Carlow would rather go to Dublin for these things).
If someone can provide a logical and economic argument how we can fulfill all these things without change I would be most open to hear it. but please leave the GAA out of it.
Well said Bards.0
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