UCD Halting Site

Dave!

Reply from the newspaper...

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your email. The University Observer has been following
this story since the halting site was first mooted a number of years
ago. I wrote a news story on the situation last year. We will be
covering the latest in our next issue, which will be out next Tuesday.

Kind regards,
Sorcha Nic Mhathúna

The University Observer
Ireland's Award-Winning Student Newspaper

Editor: Ms Sorcha Nic Mhathúna
Deputy Editor: Ms Nathalie Márquez Courtney

The University Observer
UCD Student Centre
Belfield
Dublin 4

Phone: (00353)1 716 3119/3120
Fax: (00353) 1 716 3109
E-mail: university.observer@ucd.ie
Web: www.ucd.ie/observer

singingstranger

Wasn't it the UO story that was put in the Southside People?!

arbeitsscheuer

peachypants wrote:

Listen up folks.

There have been quite a number of complaints made about this thread and to be perfectly honest I am astounded and sickened by some of what I'm reading. I'm not going to name names or point out specific posts, however I am giving everyone a warning.

This thread will be locked and bans will be handed out if anymore "knacker" comments are posted. If you want to post about the negative effects this halting site may have on the area then by all means do so. However, please do it without making bigoted remarks. Comments like the ones that have been posted would not be accepted if they were said about any other minority group in Ireland and as far as I'm concerned, the travelling community is no different on this forum.

Oh and feel free to call it PC bullshít if you want.

/applauds
Glad that somebody here has a fully-functioning brain... And that person happens to be the mod, thank cr*p...

This reminds me of Michael Howard in Autumn 2004. He said,
"Whenever there is a conflict between political correctness and common sense, let me tell you where I stand - firmly on the side of common sense!"

Which kinda left the tolerant among us in the difficult position of having to come out against 'common sense'.

What with 'common sense' apparently meaning 'hating gypsies'.

And there was me thinking it meant not lighting your farts near petrol pumps...

scop

SebtheBum wrote:

Which kinda left the tolerant among us in the difficult position of having to come out against 'common sense'.

What with 'common sense' apparently meaning 'hating gypsies'.

And there was me thinking it meant not lighting your farts near petrol pumps...

I disagree, common sense is what we all know is true. People complain about PC because it seeks to put a lid on peoples natural feelings, their observations and replacing them with the threat of not having the 'correct' opinions.

Its a kind of reverse facism in my eyes, people do in fact at times hate others and even lo and behold gypsies, generally from what they have encountered in real life, real life being on the side of common sense.

I note your point but alas disagree profoundly.

The_Minister

I hate to be pedantic, but I'm fairly sure that there is a large difference between gypsies, travellers and Roma ie they are not interchangable.

Dave!

SebtheBum wrote:

/applauds
Glad that somebody here has a fully-functioning brain... And that person happens to be the mod, thank cr*p...

This reminds me of Michael Howard in Autumn 2004. He said,
"Whenever there is a conflict between political correctness and common sense, let me tell you where I stand - firmly on the side of common sense!"

Which kinda left the tolerant among us in the difficult position of having to come out against 'common sense'.

What with 'common sense' apparently meaning 'hating gypsies'.

And there was me thinking it meant not lighting your farts near petrol pumps...

You can put your head in the sand if you like, but those of us 'with fully-functioning brains' (and indeed, eyes) aren't gonna ignore what's staring us in the face because we're afraid of hurting feelings (usually the feelings of middle-class do-gooders who are really just paying lip-service to travellers and couldn't actually give a sh*t (no, not talking about ye))

So I tend to exercise common sense also.

Chinafoot

scop wrote:

Its a kind of reverse facism in my eyes, people do in fact at times hate others and even lo and behold gypsies, generally from what they have encountered in real life, real life being on the side of common sense.

Indeed, but also on the side of common sense is being aware that your unique experience does not give you the right to put a label on those you have no experience of.

If someone here had said that they had a bad experience with a black person and went on to call them all "n*gg*rs" (sorry but I refuse to type that word properly) there would undoubtedly be uproar. You can not tar entire groups of people with the same brush because of your individual experiences. That is just ignorance.

I have never had a bad experience with the travellers in my community. In fact, when I worked part-time in a shop there were a number of travellers that I served regularly and I found them to be friendly, poilte and good for a bit of banter. Having said that, I would never go on to say that because of my experience they are all fantastic people. I know that that isn't the case. There are good and bad in all communities. People on this thread need to recognise that.

I have no problem with people who are of the opinion that a halting site would be a bad idea or that there *might* be trouble caused by the community itself.....ONCE YOU BACK IT UP. Link to some statistics, link to some evidence of some sort. Don't just say "Oh well the ones in my town were scum. They're all scum. They'll be robbing the college and pissing and shítting everywhere." Thats what I have a problem with, as did those who complained about some of the posts.

Now can we please get this back on topic. Thanks

scop

peachypants wrote:

Indeed, but also on the side of common sense is being aware that your unique experience does not give you the right to put a label on those you have no experience of.

Thats just it, I have plenty and those posting here who I know personally and live close by have had similar experiences. Thats not to say I have never met nice travellers, Ive been helped out by them before and even learnt a thing or two but Im afraid those were the exceptions not the rules. This is experience from around the age of five until eighteen or so.

If someone here had said that they had a bad experience with a black person and went on to call them all "n*gg*rs" (sorry but I refuse to type that word properly) there would undoubtedly be uproar. You can not tar entire groups of people with the same brush because of your individual experiences. That is just ignorance.

Of course it is because most of us have no problems with black people living near us, in Tallaght Ive a few black neighbours, my sister is a friend of a few but they may as well be Irish. The thing is they have settled in, integrated, obey the rules. Racism of that sort is generally from people who dont know any black people, and people being pissed off with travellers is from knowing them.

Mind, I hate words like gypsy and note that I used it earlier. Words like that are just pointless.

I have never had a bad experience with the travellers in my community. In fact, when I worked part-time in a shop there were a number of travellers that I served regularly and I found them to be friendly, poilte and good for a bit of banter. Having said that, I would never go on to say that because of my experience they are all fantastic people. I know that that isn't the case. There are good and bad in all communities. People on this thread need to recognise that.

Fair enough, I guess its a case of getting over something that engrained in me from a young age.

I have no problem with people who are of the opinion that a halting site would be a bad idea or that there *might* be trouble caused by the community itself.....ONCE YOU BACK IT UP. Link to some statistics, link to some evidence of some sort. Don't just say "Oh well the ones in my town were scum. They're all scum. They'll be robbing the college and pissing and shítting everywhere." Thats what I have a problem with, as did those who complained about some of the posts.

Fair enough. I dont advocate extreme positions like that myself. Balance of both sides is desired I guess.

Common sense probably lies in the middle of everyones opinions here

Now can we please get this back on topic. Thanks

Agreed and sorry but I had to reply!

mloc

peachypants wrote:

I have never had a bad experience with the travellers in my community. In fact, when I worked part-time in a shop there were a number of travellers that I served regularly and I found them to be friendly, poilte and good for a bit of banter. Having said that, I would never go on to say that because of my experience they are all fantastic people. I know that that isn't the case. There are good and bad in all communities. People on this thread need to recognise that.

While I for one must admit I am strongly anti-racist, in my view I don't think the travelling community is a seperate race. However, that's neither here nor there. From personal experience, I think it's fair to say I've never had a GOOD experience with travellers in my community. I live pretty much right beside UCD, in fact, I must be one of the closest residents to UCD that actually lives at home.

In the past years, there have been 3 or 4 temporary traveller settlements within .5 km of my house, all very near UCD. Two sites were used, one public property (on roebuck road), the other private (wilson road). Both sites were entered illegally through vandalism and destruction of bollards. No action was taken as the groups moved in over night, and there was no witnesses. For the period of the occupation of the two sites, there was several dog attacks, the victims being innocent passers by. Noise levels, further vandalism of the area and enormous amounts of waste were generated. Petty crime and theft in many local shops soared (this I know from taking to the owners, who caught a few of the thieves in the act), and burglaries also increased. A old woman had stones pelted at her as she walked past the site.

On the privately owned site, money was looked for from the owner in return for the travellers leaving his site. His site was dug up, covered in debris and waste, and when they eventually left, they left all their unneccessary belongings and waste (including human biological waste) behind them. This occured on both sites.

Members of other local halting sites over the years have often worked laying tarmac in the area, most of this work was done off the books, with no safety at all. The majority of the work was not properly completed. Property was often stolen from clients gardens, and indeed houses.

Screw political correctness. The question must be asked... what is the purpose of a halting site in an area such as UCD? Instead of building halting sites these individuals should be rehabilitated into proper social housing and given help to become a functioning part of society. It's time to end the nonsense.

Chinafoot

scop wrote:

Thats just it, I have plenty and those posting here who I know personally and live close by have had similar experiences. Thats not to say I have never met nice travellers, Ive been helped out by them before and even learnt a thing or two but Im afraid those were the exceptions not the rules. This is experience from around the age of five until eighteen or so.

You have had plenty of experience from those in *your* area. That is not every single member of the travelling community. Again, you can't label everyone because of your experience.

scop wrote:

Racism of that sort is generally from people who dont know any black people, and people being pissed off with travellers is from knowing them.

Okay, I'm sorry but do you know every single member of the travelling community? Do you know the travellers that may end up in this halting site should it go ahead? No? Then don't make assumptions.

Again you are purely basing it on your own experience. I know thats an inevitable thing and we all do it at some point. However, if you are going to talk about common sense then you need to acknowledge the fact that you can't blame everyone in a certain group for the actions of individuals that you have encountered.

Would like it if someone from another country for example called you an alcoholic waster, because that was their experience of Irish people?

scop wrote:

Fair enough. I dont advocate extreme positions like that myself. Balance of both sides is desired I guess.

Well I'm glad we can agree on that point. Some of the things posted on this thread are way over the top and very offensive. Just because "most people" don't like travellers doesn't make it ok to spout that kind of stuff. (I'm not singling you out here or anything)

Now, back on topic.

Blowfish

mloc wrote:

Screw political correctness. The question must be asked... what is the purpose of a halting site in an area such as UCD? Instead of building halting sites these individuals should be rehabilitated into proper social housing and given help to become a functioning part of society. It's time to end the nonsense.

The problem with this is that in my experience, they actually don't want to become part of the settled community. They local county council tried that for a group in my area, gave them all nice new houses etc, but very soon there were problems, with eventually endin up with fights with the locals (this was BY NO MEANS completely their fault, the locals resented their being their because of their background). Anyway, eventually it got so bad for both sides that they simply left, and ended back in a caravan.

What does seem to work, is the halting sites which are pretty much permanent. One of the sites closest to me, has services like water and electricity, and although they still live in their caravans, they have actually been in their for years (It is also amusing to see their group of about 10 caravans all with a sky digital dish parked on the roof). I actually was in the same school as some of them, and they were actually picked on and bullied all of the time. With all of this happening to them, is it really any wonder that they seem to have a grudge against society in general?

mloc

Blowfish wrote:

The problem with this is that in my experience, they actually don't want to become part of the settled community. They local county council tried that for a group in my area, gave them all nice new houses etc, but very soon there were problems, with eventually endin up with fights with the locals (this was BY NO MEANS completely their fault, the locals resented their being their because of their background). Anyway, eventually it got so bad for both sides that they simply left, and ended back in a caravan.

I've heard of this happening also. What I don't get is why they think it's gonna be that easy. All it would take is one, perhaps two generations at most to settle properly into society. I think the Government is being far too weak on this issue. If roadside settling becomes illegal, and the laws, many of which are already in place, actually become enforced, then they would have to adjust to settled living.

It sounds harsh, and wouldn't be easy for both travellers or those settled there originally, but it's a neccessary step.

Blowfish wrote:

...is it really any wonder that they seem to have a grudge against society in general?

If they are given the opportunity to join society and disregard it, then that's a consequence they have to make. It's this bullsh*t attitude that this clearly historically-obselete nomadic way of life should be tolerated in a settled, modern country that's the problem. These people don't need insults or abuse, they need help. They need integration, just like any other group and that will mean facing some hard realities.

Dave!

peachypants wrote:

Indeed, but also on the side of common sense is being aware that your unique experience does not give you the right to put a label on those you have no experience of.

If someone here had said that they had a bad experience with a black person and went on to call them all "n*gg*rs" (sorry but I refuse to type that word properly) there would undoubtedly be uproar. You can not tar entire groups of people with the same brush because of your individual experiences. That is just ignorance.

Yeah, but the thing is, it's not just "my" individual experiences, it's the individual experiences of the vast majority of people I have encountered in my life. My family, my friends, the people in this thread, and this other thread. There's about 2 positive experiences in that whole thread, about 3 people saying "ahh here lads, sure they're not all bad :rolleyes:"

Of course basing it on your own experiences and that's all is ignorant. But when I see the amount of people telling their own experiences of travellers, I can't help but think "hmmm, maybe we're onto somethin here". And these are people from all walks of life too, D4 to D24.

Personally I think it's ignorance to ignore these experiences and opinions because of the old "there's good and bad in every group". Of course there is. But is it not possible that the "bad" outnumber the "good" in traveller communities? Is there always an inherant want to please present in every human's genes? You don't think that their upbringing, their culture, their segregation from settled society, might affect them in a negative way?

peachypants wrote:

I have never had a bad experience with the travellers in my community. In fact, when I worked part-time in a shop there were a number of travellers that I served regularly and I found them to be friendly, poilte and good for a bit of banter. Having said that, I would never go on to say that because of my experience they are all fantastic people. I know that that isn't the case. There are good and bad in all communities. People on this thread need to recognise that.

That's a lovely story, but as it so happens it's quite a rare occurance, if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by (and I'm sure you won't agree that it is).

peachypants wrote:

I have no problem with people who are of the opinion that a halting site would be a bad idea or that there *might* be trouble caused by the community itself.....ONCE YOU BACK IT UP. Link to some statistics, link to some evidence of some sort. Don't just say "Oh well the ones in my town were scum. They're all scum. They'll be robbing the college and pissing and shítting everywhere." Thats what I have a problem with, as did those who complained about some of the posts.

That's quite an easy thing to say, but unfortunately life isn't that simple. For starters the Gardaí usually steer clear of travellers because (a) they're too dangerous, and (b) if they touch them they'll end up with some civil rights group or other accusing them of discriminating. And if the Gardaí do actually decide to arrest them, stuff like this happens!

"The travellers accepted that Dunsink Lane would remain closed to the Blanchardstown end and in return, charges taken in connection with the blockade were not pursued.
The deal means that individuals arrested with harpoons, knives, high-powered ammunition for an automatic rifle, a 9mm handgun, two bows and 30 steel-tipped arrows have effectively got away scot-free."

Unbelievable! There are no statistics, no research has been done, and no research will be done, because (a) anybody who tries to carry out research in this area will eaten alive by civil rights groups, (b) any individual who wants to carry out undercover investigation is in too much danger, and (c) if you ask a traveller have they been involved in crime they'll talk their way out of it like you won't believe (take a look at the PrimeTime show about Patrick Nally killing that traveller who was breaking into his house; the bloke had been arrested for any number of offenses, he was caught breaking into yer man's house, and the family still managed to side-step this. Pretty impressive it must be said), so it won't be reliable evidence.

So yeah, unfortunately anecdotal evidence is all we can muster up.

melekalikimaka

they are a drain on the economy, its a toss up between travellers and them immigrants, at least we can't call the latvians our own. they should be forced into housing, they are a destructive force in any community, screw the P.C. of it all, they know the police can't do squat to em, cut their bloody child allowence and see how far they get they're gypsy wagons before a house looks to them like disgarded washing machine by a skip(pretty temping)!

Blowfish

melekalikimaka wrote:

they are a drain on the economy, its a toss up between travellers and them immigrants, at least we can't call the latvians our own. they should be forced into housing, they are a destructive force in any community, screw the P.C. of it all, they know the police can't do squat to em, cut their bloody child allowence and see how far they get they're gypsy wagons before a house looks to them like disgarded washing machine by a skip(pretty temping)!

hmm, me thinks you wont last long here

mloc

DaveMcG wrote:

Yeah, but the thing is, it's not just "my" individual experiences, it's the individual experiences of the vast majority of people I have encountered in my life. My family, my friends, the people in this thread, and this other thread. There's about 2 positive experiences in that whole thread, about 3 people saying "ahh here lads, sure they're not all bad :rolleyes:"

I have to agree here. I may not have examined EVERY handgun in the world, but I think it's safe to assume that if I point one at my head and pull the trigger, I'm in trouble. It seems to be the consensus.

peachypants wrote:

Okay, I'm sorry but do you know every single member of the travelling community?

I think we're talking vast majorities here, not every single one. There is of course good in every group. But sometimes that good element lie in a small minority of that group. A very small one.

melekalikimaka

Blowfish wrote:

hmm, me thinks you wont last long here

indeed i think so too... just read the other posts...eep. maybe i shoulda ended it with a smiley face.:D

Chinafoot

Lads I'm not saying you have to agree with me. What I am saying is that there are better ways to put forward arguments than calling them knackers and saying that they'll be "shítting and pissing" all over the place. Both of those things have been said on this thread.

Put forward arguments in a calm and mature manner and everything will be fine. Start throwing around insults and derogatory names and there will be bannage. The same rules apply to discussions on travellers regardless of the fact that people you know agree with you.

Now can we please get back on topic.

arbeitsscheuer

Blowfish wrote:

hmm, me thinks you wont last long here

Can't spot a p*sstake when it's right in front of yeah, eh?:rolleyes:

EDIT: Better post something that adds to the discussion... I guess...
Listen, for between 5-7 years I lived near halting sites (one illegal site too) in Lucan. The same lot are still around there, been moved to an area nearer Clondalkin. Anyway. Never gave me or anyone else I knew any hassle. Only thing I remember vividly from the time was the nearby residents kickin up a hell of a fuss tryin to move the buggers... Which they eventually did, and they've been in the same place for at least 8 years now. Never cause any problems to anyone, and are pretty much as good as gold. And there's a f**king sh*tload of em.

Now, I know for a fact, from the various ppl I know and their experiences with travellers, that this is a far-from-common experience. Many have had serious problems with them. But why tar them all with the same brush? It's just baffling.

mloc

SebtheBum wrote:

for between 5-7 years I lived near halting sites (one illegal site too) in Lucan. The same lot are still around there, been moved to an area nearer Clondalkin.

To pull things back on topic, I say great, fantastic, no trouble that's wonderful. But a halting site in UCD? Which is, lets face it, a community of its own, focused on student life and education. It resides in Dublin 4, a well off semi-urban environment. What is the purpose of putting a halting site there? It's simply not a suitable area. HSWTA

planck2

i agree

Chinafoot

mloc wrote:

It resides in Dublin 4, a well off semi-urban environment. What is the purpose of putting a halting site there? It's simply not a suitable area. HSWTA

Where is a "suitable area" then?

mloc

peachypants wrote:

Where is a "suitable area" then?

I'm glad you asked me that question. As i previously stated, I don't think there is such a thing as suitable area, for reasons I already went into.

However, if I must define a suitable area, it would be either rural or on the outskirts of a town/city, in line with traveller traditions. They can't have it every way.

Halting sites simply do not belong (nor have they ever belonged) in developed urban or semi-urban areas.

Read up on the history of travellers and you'll learn alllll about it.

arbeitsscheuer

The dreaded curse of the NIMBY strikes again...:rolleyes:

melekalikimaka

its all well and good saying'lets not tar them with the same brush' but it can't be denied the community have a reputation, I have good and bad experiences with them, some very nice ones(one even returned to my house after doing some gardening with a bottle of holy water he got from lourdes when he heard my mother was ill), but then theres the desructive types, a large portion I'd GUESS(only an opinion), that would take adverse pleasure in destruction and looting of property, in an area where security are IMO useless

mloc

SebtheBum wrote:

The dreaded curse of the NIMBY strikes again...:rolleyes:

while i could see how you could see it as that, it's simply not the case. anyone with a familiarity of traveller culture and history will agree with me.

it seems that most advocates of travellers here really have no actual understanding or knowledge of them at all.

Dave!

SebtheBum wrote:

The dreaded curse of the NIMBY strikes again...:rolleyes:

psst.

Chinafoot

mloc wrote:

it seems that most advocates of travellers here really have no actual understanding or knowledge of them at all.

A very large and rather baseless assumption tbh.

mloc

peachypants wrote:

A very large and rather baseless assumption tbh.

anyone who knew anything about traveller history wouldn't be advocating a halting site in somewhere like UCD.

Large, not entirely baseless, and very correct.

Chinafoot

mloc wrote:

anyone who knew anything about traveller history wouldn't be advocating a halting site in somewhere like UCD.

Large, not entirely baseless, and very correct.

Did I "advocate" the halting site in UCD? Did Seb?

I don't believe so.