Can Irish be saved?

the_syco

SeanW wrote:

So that's really what it all boils down to, the ancient Gaels 1000+ years ago spoke Gaeilge so we should all speak it now in 2006 and have the present government ramm it down everyone's throats?

Forget 100 years, Ireland has changed in the last millenium. Times have changed and some things belong in the past.

More likely 90 years. We're not getting the "good" Irish, but the bastar.dised version.

Sand

So that's really what it all boils down to, the ancient Gaels 1000+ years ago spoke Gaeilge so we should all speak it now in 2006 and have the present government ramm it down everyone's throats?

Forget 100 years, Ireland has changed in the last millenium. Times have changed and some things belong in the past.

Yup, that essentially is the argument as far as it goes. 2000 years ago we all spoke Irish. Lets ignore history and all speak it again.

I can understand "national pride" as a reason why someone would want to learn the language. I cant understand "national pride" as being a reason to force everyone else to learn the language.

The Irish language is pretty much equivalent to the Terry Schiavo case. Clare County Council spent something like 30,000 euro on printing its annual reports in Irish - as required by law. Not a single copy of the Irish version was taken. 30,000 euro pissed away on a vanity project. Thats only surprising to those who demand that more and more be spent on translating stuff into Irish as some sort of cure for the fact that no one speaks it.

New_Departure06

Sand wrote:

Yup, that essentially is the argument as far as it goes. 2000 years ago we all spoke Irish. Lets ignore history and all speak it again.

I can understand "national pride" as a reason why someone would want to learn the language. I cant understand "national pride" as being a reason to force everyone else to learn the language.

The Irish language is pretty much equivalent to the Terry Schiavo case. Clare County Council spent something like 30,000 euro on printing its annual reports in Irish - as required by law. Not a single copy of the Irish version was taken. 30,000 euro pissed away on a vanity project. Thats only surprising to those who demand that more and more be spent on translating stuff into Irish as some sort of cure for the fact that no one speaks it.

It was probably higher in Donegal, Mayo or Galway?

The Corinthian

Like the question of reunification, the Irish language is one of those uncomfortable giant squids in the corner of the living room that everyone realises is there, but no one wants to admit to. Successive governments (of all political parties) have essentially avoided really tackling the issue of the languages decline, at best periodically throwing some money at it and making a few patriotic noises.

It’s not helped by such ridiculous farces as the Gaeltacht and the network of vested interests that would like the farce to continue. Irish is not the predominant language there; English is. Sure, there a greater proportion of people with a good level of Irish there, but you can say that about a lot of people with Leaving Cert French or German - speaking of which, there are places in the Gaeltacht where you’ll find more German than Irish speakers.

Perhaps Hanafin’s plan will result in a resurgence of the language, but if history is anything is to go by I doubt it. After all we were told that TnaG would result in a renascence of the language. Irish will continue it’s slow decline, spoken realistically by only a handful of diehard Gaelgores while everyone else pays it lip service, partially because there are too many jobs and tax breaks dependant upon it and also because we’re too ashamed to finally admit the we fscked it up and it’s now dead.

I think it’s a pity, TBH, but if people are happy enough to ignore the Fantasyland politics of people like Eamonn O’Cuiv who assure us that’s it’s alive and well... well, we really will have nobody to blame but ourselves if it’s become the linguistic equivalent of the Monty Python dead parrot.

The_Minister

I think its dead. It died when Enda Kenny broke the political taboo and said that he will make it non-compulsory when he is Taoiseach. Before him no politician of any real standing would let it happen.

flogen

Sand wrote:

Yup, that essentially is the argument as far as it goes. 2000 years ago we all spoke Irish. Lets ignore history and all speak it again.

I can understand "national pride" as a reason why someone would want to learn the language. I cant understand "national pride" as being a reason to force everyone else to learn the language.

Who said anything about forcing? As i said the language will live or die on the will of the people, I just think the government should either do something real to help save it or admit that it's dead... the fact is though that regardless of government action it's the commoner that will decide.

As for the argument, we all spoke Irish 1000 years ago, and the language didn't fade because it no longer had a purpose, it was pushed out by English rule... besides that the Irish language has a lot of beauty to it that would be lost if it died, as someone said, there's a lot about Irish that doesn't translate, just like every language.

simu

I think it's fair enough for a government to attempt to preserve the linguistic diversity of a country. Unfortunately, many of the attempts at preserving and encouraging Irish in Ireland are inefficient and directed at the wrong people. (Like giving college grants to people who happen to live in Gaeltacht areas but don't speak Irish at home whereas people like me who actually grew up speaking in Irish could not apply for these :mad: ). And things won't change because people have vested interests beyond helping the langauge to keep things as they are.

Well, I don't know how long Irish will last but it'll last for a while yet anyway - I'll be speaking it to my child fo'sure!

New_Departure06

Apparently all of those who are even native speakers are bilingual. We need to give people state-inducements to use Irish. We need more bilingual judges appointed and to allow people to take court-cases in Irish. This was recommended in 1927 for heavens sake by a commission on the language set up by the W.T. Cosgrave government and they said no. They wanted to make people learn Irish but not have avenues to use it afterwards. That has been the problem ever since, including the drought of imagination and the sterile syllabus with its poems from the 1600's. People want to learn how to converse not just say poems. Wake up elites.

I also wonder if more radical ideas might be needed, including the building of Irish-language towns where only fluent people could live, and from where inhabitants would be required to conduct business in Irish with other inhabitants who have businesses there. Also if there is a local court the judges should be Irish-speaking. All the schools should be Gaelscoil or using that format. I hope I am not a dreamer. Just think we need to be radical as Irish is on its knees. Am I right?

The Corinthian

New_Departure06 wrote:

Apparently all of those who are even native speakers are bilingual.

Another way of putting it is that some of the native English speakers of this island are bilingual with Irish.

We need to give people state-inducements to use Irish.

Why? We’ve been giving inducements since the formation of the State, so you’d think we’d have learned that it’s not working.

Here, let’s bank roll another TnaG so we can get people to watch it only when there are English language movies on.

We need more bilingual judges appointed and to allow people to take court-cases in Irish. This was recommended in 1927 for heavens sake by a commission on the language set up by the W.T. Cosgrave government and they said no. They wanted to make people learn Irish but not have avenues to use it afterwards.

Who wants to take court cases in Irish? Why is this an incentive for more people to learn the language? I understand that it creates an avenue to use the language, but that does not mean anyone will bother doing so - after all, we can take the court case in English anyway.

It’s like the earlier example of Clare County Council bringing out two versions of the annual report and no one reading the Irish version despite the money that was spent on it.

That has been the problem ever since, including the drought of imagination and the sterile syllabus with its poems from the 1600's. People want to learn how to converse not just say poems. Wake up elites.

I would agree with this. But the damage is done.

I also wonder if more radical ideas might be needed, including the building of Irish-language towns where only fluent people could live, and from where inhabitants would be required to conduct business in Irish with other inhabitants who have businesses there. Also if there is a local court the judges should be Irish-speaking. All the schools should be Gaelscoil or using that format.

In addition to the above issue, I would be concerned by how one can regulate such ‘fluency’. The standards of fluency in the Gaeltacht are at this stage laughably geared towards massaging the figures in favour of showing greater Irish fluency. After all, it’s in every one’s interests - the department gets it’s budget and everyone gets their tax breaks.

Additionally, simply because you can cram an exam to get a tax break or job (or, as you suggest, house) does not make you an Irish speaker - it just makes you good at passing exams; after which (the odd inspection aside) you can revert back to English.

I hope I am not a dreamer. Just think we need to be radical as Irish is on its knees. Am I right?

Unfortunately Irish, like all other European languages, is up against English. And today this is no longer because of 800 Years of OppressionÔ, but because of the US – and it has become the de facto language of both international commerce and mass media. As a result it makes the job that much more, possibly insurmountably, difficult.

Unfortunately, while I do think that while you may be right on the need for imaginative approaches, the language seems to be pretty much on the way out. There will always be a hard core of Gaelgores out there, but given the Worldwide Anglophone movement and successive governments that have even failed until now to even admit there was a terminal problem, I can’t see it picking up without something radical (and probably undemocratic) being applied.

SeanW

TG4 is a joke. I remember back when Enda K. made his move on compulsory Irish, TG4 had a special on it. I was bored so I watched it, and boy was it funny.

They had Trevor Sargent on talking about his adult Gaeilge teaching practice, and his views on the language, fair enough, but immediately after that they had some representative of some Gaeilge summer camp on - apparently these guys get a lot of leaving cert students who need help with Gaeilge, (wonder why?) and to paraphrase them: "oh good lord Jaysus don't make Irish optional, becuase our useless service would be defunct, we'd all be out of jobs, the parents would save loads of money and the students could enjoy their summers, and we can't have that now can we?"

They didn't use those words of course but that was the gist of it.

Like has been said, vested interest groups are all that are being looked after. Time to end this ridiculous farce that is the government's language policy altogether. It has no business meddling in the language question.

luckat

I don't know of *anyone* who wants to banish English. It would be crazy to rid ourselves of a major competitive advantage - fluency in the world language of business.

But it's also an advantage to speak Irish. For a start, learning two languages when you're starting to speak gives you a big advantage in fluency in general - hunt around and you'll find dozens of studies on this effect.

Then there's the fact that a whole culture exists in Irish that actually doesn't exist in English, with all kinds of concepts that should be available to us. To take one small example, look at the phrase cothrom na Féinne, which carries within it a whole series of resounding meanings, based on the idea that in the Fianna the central tenet was equality, but equality of those with widely differing skills.

And no, I'm not suggesting that we should all go back to haring through the mountains in saffron kilts chasing deer with bronze spears.

Nor am I trying to enforce the speaking of the language.

But I do think that it should be taught in schools, just as maths and history and English and French should. After that, if you don't want to speak it, that's your choice. But if you'd like to speak Irish to me, béidh fáilte agus fíche agat!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I'd say yes it should BUT only if you do it properly.

The major point being missed is this: the audience of those wishing to preserve the language are kids aged 4 - 8 years old.

If you want the exercise to be a success, you have to stop thinking along the lines of "how do we force this language on the kids so that they learn it?" and start thinking along the lines of 'how do we market this language on the kids so that they learn it?"

Get to know the audience. Get them enthsuiastic about it. You can get kids enthusiatic about anything IF you introduce it to them in the right way. And the first thing to note is that your average 6 year old is not going to get on the bandwagon because of Pearse or Culture or History or Dem Damn Brits.

Then you make it an optional subject after primary school. If you still have believe it should be cumpulsory, then you've lost. And I could do without any more of my tax-money being pissed away, thank you very much.

The Corinthian

luckat wrote:

But I do think that it should be taught in schools, just as maths and history and English and French should. After that, if you don't want to speak it, that's your choice.

However the dilemma now is that Irish is no longer really comparable to English or French, but more to Latin, ancient Greek or even Esperanto (which, incidentally, has more speakers). Perhaps we should make one or more of those compulsory too?

Diorraing

The Corinthian wrote:

However the dilemma now is that Irish is no longer really comparable to English or French, but more to Latin, ancient Greek or even Esperanto (which, incidentally, has more speakers). Perhaps we should make one or more of those compulsory too?

I beg to differ. I did French, German and Latin for the leaving cert and can tell you with good authority that Irish is as removed from Latin as the other two are. The grammar in german is as difficult if not more than that of Irish as it comprises of accusative and dative cases and also has three genders. Yes, there are parts of Irish that could and maybe should be made easier but to say that Irish is ancient like Latin shows an ignorance to both languages.
The Irish curriculum is in need of drastic reform from top level to bottom. Irish literature should form a different subject to the language itself. It is quite possible and indeed very likely that the number of people with a fluency in the language will grow as there is an increasing benevolence towards it (especially amongst the middle classes) and not the same blind hatred as is possessed by the likes of SeanW. Abolishing Irish for the leaving cert is not wise as the present system stands. Irish is not an easily crammable subject and students who are in desperate need for points may choose an easier subject like Home Ec even though they have a genuine interest in Irish

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

New_Departure06 wrote:

Apparently all of those who are even native speakers are bilingual. We need to give people state-inducements to use Irish. We need more bilingual judges appointed and to allow people to take court-cases in Irish. This was recommended in 1927 for heavens sake by a commission on the language set up by the W.T. Cosgrave government and they said no. They wanted to make people learn Irish but not have avenues to use it afterwards. That has been the problem ever since, including the drought of imagination and the sterile syllabus with its poems from the 1600's. People want to learn how to converse not just say poems. Wake up elites.

I also wonder if more radical ideas might be needed, including the building of Irish-language towns where only fluent people could live, and from where inhabitants would be required to conduct business in Irish with other inhabitants who have businesses there. Also if there is a local court the judges should be Irish-speaking. All the schools should be Gaelscoil or using that format. I hope I am not a dreamer. Just think we need to be radical as Irish is on its knees. Am I right?

One - Having courts in Irish won't make any difference: if people want to speak Irish, they'll speak Irish on the streets. If they don't, they won't.

Two - Irish-language towns? You are joking, aren't you? I would make it my business to go to these places with loudspeakers on the car reading newspapers or whatever in English. As is my right.

Three - Are you a dreamer? Depends. If you are dreaming of an environment where people who can speak Irish will speak more Irish? No - whyt don't they? If you're dreaming of an environment where everyone speaks Irish? Yes. Because everyone else has a say and some of us refuse point blank.

The Corinthian

Diorraing wrote:

I beg to differ. I did French, German and Latin for the leaving cert and can tell you with good authority that Irish is as removed from Latin as the other two are. The grammar in german is as difficult if not more than that of Irish as it comprises of accusative and dative cases and also has three genders. Yes, there are parts of Irish that could and maybe should be made easier but to say that Irish is ancient like Latin shows an ignorance to both languages.

While we’re on the subject of ignorance in languages I should probably point out that you have misunderstood what I was saying. I did not compare Irish with Latin, et al on any grammatical or purely linguistic level.

SeanW

Diorraing wrote:

and not the same blind hatred as is possessed by the likes of SeanW.

Hmmm ... so now you have to get personal to score points?

For the last bloody time, I don't hate the Irish language, that would be irrational. I don't hate Gaeilge, or indeed any of the languages more relevant in modern Ireland like Chinese, Polish, etc.

But those languages are not being rammed down the throats of an indifferent population, in school, the (subsidised) media, and by ultra-nationalist enthusaists. I don't hate the language, just the attitude surrounding it.

You are also being disingenuous when you claim that the only reason a student might choose to drop the Irish language in the Leaving Cert if they could is because of the points race. You underestimate - perhaps intentionally - the level of involvememnt some students have with their education, can you authoritatively state that no students would ever take another elective subject because they found it interesting, engaging or relevant to them as individuals?

Of course not. I've been in education systems that have lots of electives/optionals and they work.

Perhaps you could deal with the facts instead of getting personal and spreading myths.

Lennoxschips

For me the future is top stop seperating English and Irish, and to embrace Hiberno-English as the national language. The key should be to promote the development of an Irish dialect of English. More Irish words could be integrated into this language, like Gardaí and Taoiseach already are. Using "Irish grammar" in English shouldn't be frowned upon in schools either. Oxford English is for people in Oxford.

Preserving Irish in it's pure form is a lost cause, but we can take English and Irish, mix it all together and produce our own dialect which is unique to the country and reflects the contemporary population. The language puritans, whether they be Irish or English, should leave the population alone.

I disagree

SeanW wrote:

You are also being disingenuous when you claim that the only reason a student might choose to drop the Irish language in the Leaving Cert if they could is because of the points race. You underestimate - perhaps intentionally - the level of involvememnt some students have with their education, can you authoritatively state that no students would ever take another elective subject because they found it interesting, engaging or relevant to them as individuals?


I must admit that I know of many who took the easy option for their leaving cert and indeed made it a point’s race. I ended up choosing damn awful subjects such as economics, history, physics and accounting. I knew that I wouldn't need those subjects but I chose them anyway but some of my friends picked geography and agricultural science not out of interest but because they perceived those subjects to be easier.

I do believe that Irish should be optional when you finish your junior cert but if people wish to keep Irish but are afraid to do so because they wish to gain as many points as possible then the subject should be awarded more points.:rolleyes: I personally don’t care too much since my school days are over forever. Praise the Lord.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I disagree wrote:

SeanW wrote:

You are also being disingenuous when you claim that the only reason a student might choose to drop the Irish language in the Leaving Cert if they could is because of the points race. You underestimate - perhaps intentionally - the level of involvememnt some students have with their education, can you authoritatively state that no students would ever take another elective subject because they found it interesting, engaging or relevant to them as individuals?


I must admit that I know of many who took the easy option for their leaving cert and indeed made it a point’s race. I ended up choosing damn awful subjects such as economics, history, physics and accounting. I knew that I wouldn't need those subjects but I chose them anyway but some of my friends picked geography and agricultural science not out of interest but because they perceived those subjects to be easier.

I do believe that Irish should be optional when you finish your junior cert but if people wish to keep Irish but are afraid to do so because they wish to gain as many points as possible then the subject should be awarded more points.:rolleyes: I personally don’t care too much since my school days are over forever. Praise the Lord.

Should be optional from end of primary - that way it won't be a points issue.

Cork

I love Irish. But I recognise the Irish language brigade are their own worst ememy. The whole make Irish an official EU language was pointless.

They are too many EU languages - this will be reformed in the EU sooner rather than later.

I went around last January to find Irish Languages classes. I found classes for every other language except Irish.

UCC run classes from September. But secondary schools, community colleges etc seem to be doing little.

Conversational Circles? Could not find these either.

I hated Irish at school. Peig and rubbish poetry meant nothing.

But I began to like it again about 3 years ago. But there is little opportunity to practice it.

zuma

Cork wrote:

I love Irish. But I recognise the Irish language brigade are their own worst ememy. The whole make Irish an official EU language was pointless.

They are too many EU languages - this will be reformed in the EU sooner rather than later.

I went around last January to find Irish Languages classes. I found classes for every other language except Irish.

UCC run classes from September. But secondary schools, community colleges etc seem to be doing little.

Conversational Circles? Could not find these either.

I hated Irish at school. Peig and rubbish poetry meant nothing.

But I began to like it again about 3 years ago. But there is little opportunity to practice it.

I think most documents are only translated into 3 languages firstly...English/French/German and if need be then a second and/or more tiers of which Irish must surely be last!

The reason for it becoming an official language was because we were at a disadvantage when getting EU level jobs as the 13 years of learning this dead language simply wasnt being recognised...oddly enough:rolleyes: .

LordSutch

I seriously think we should study the Welsh teaching model, as there methods seem to be a resounding success for the Welsh language,
(even though they are in the UK)!

I dont have any figures to hand, but I get the distinct impression that Welsh is doing very well thank you, so whats the problem here?

I reckon its all down to our teaching techniques, and speaking from personal experience I know that most people leave school with little or no Irish to speak of, even though they have been "taught" the subject for the whole of their primary & secondary school years!

Years wasted indeed .............................

simu

Lennoxschips wrote:

For me the future is top stop seperating English and Irish, and to embrace Hiberno-English as the national language. The key should be to promote the development of an Irish dialect of English. More Irish words could be integrated into this language, like Gardaí and Taoiseach already are. Using "Irish grammar" in English shouldn't be frowned upon in schools either. Oxford English is for people in Oxford.

Preserving Irish in it's pure form is a lost cause, but we can take English and Irish, mix it all together and produce our own dialect which is unique to the country and reflects the contemporary population. The language puritans, whether they be Irish or English, should leave the population alone.

Irish ebonics, eh?

o_O

Fighting Irish

New_Departure06 wrote:

Mary Hanafin plans to invite in experts to save the Irish language. http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=147691780&p=y4769z36x

Is it going to work? Can it work? Can anything work at this stage? 240,000 were native speakers in 1921 now its probably 15,000. Clearly policies since the foundation of the State have made things worse not better. So something needs to be changed. But what?

Here are my ideas:

A: While the summer camps are a good idea (my irish improved greatly when I was 12 and went to a Summer school for a few weeks but I lost it after finishing the course due to lack of practice of oral Irish in the schools and society), the real issue is the need to revamp the Irish curriculum to purge the 17th century poems about cupboards, and devote most of the class time to oral Irish rather than written Irish. I agree with teachers who have suggested that in primary schools, text books should not be introduced until much later on, and that Irish classes should be solely oral affairs until say 5th class. To be fluent in a language, you actually have to able to speak it and understand it to hear - not just writing it. Someone should have told Dev and his successors that.

B: The government needs to provide for interaction with state agencies, govt departments and courts via Irish. More fluent Irish speakers should be appointed to the judiciary to help facilitate the latter. People should be able to make tax-returns, applications for planning permission etc. in the Irish language. This is important because while Gaelscoilleanna are supposed to be good at creating fluent Irish-speakers, some then lose it due to the lack of opportunities to use it. It is unfortunate then that in 1927 or 1929 the Cosgrave government rejected a recommendation of a commission it had set up on the language, that called for Irish to be restored as the language of the courts in Irish-speaking areas.

C: Citizenship-applications from immigrants fluent in the Irish language should be treated more favourably.

Non-Irish speakers should be restricted from buying houses in Irish-speaking areas (there are only a tiny number left so this should not be too much to ask). The Plantations started the decline in Irish so it is important native speakers be given some space to preserve it in their areas.

E: Change the Census question on Irish to ask about fluency and whether it is the main language in the household. We need real data on fluency and native-speaker numbers to assess the extent of the language decline. The current Census question is a bit of a joke.

Agree or disagree?

The irish language is a waste of time, unless you have an interest in it you will never use it again outside of school. It should be removed from secondary schools along with religion(they both should be choices) and something like computers put in instead of them

Diorraing

Fighting Irish wrote:

The irish language is a waste of time, unless you have an interest in it you will never use it again outside of school. It should be removed from secondary schools along with religion(they both should be choices) and something like computers put in instead of them

And thus the final nail in the coffin of the education system. No longer is it about developing students and giving them a full education, but to produce future employees like a factory.

Fighting Irish

Diorraing wrote:

And thus the final nail in the coffin of the education system. No longer is it about developing students and giving them a full education, but to produce future employees like a factory.

Yes but why do we NEED to be educated in irish? It should be voluntary!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Diorraing wrote:

And thus the final nail in the coffin of the education system. No longer is it about developing students and giving them a full education, but to produce future employees like a factory.

No, to get points .

SeanW

Diorraing wrote:

And thus the final nail in the coffin of the education system. No longer is it about developing students and giving them a full education, but to produce future employees like a factory.

Um ... yes, school should prepare young people for real life, including the world of work, it benefits the individual to be able to obtain a higher-value, higher-paid job.

There's no money in shovelling spuds and sugar beets the way there used to be back when DeVelera was around.

Recent indications are that the state of IT in schools is deplorable, heck when I graduated from secondary school the computers looked like they belong in a museum. I wonder if they were updated since even? But of course this can't be fixed because schools have to waste their preciously scarce resources on useless relics like Gaeilge and Religion (it's 2006 and we're still teaching Catholic religion as mandatory WTF?)

However, preparing students with skills for a future job is not the only role of education of course, it should also engage the student and broaden their mind.

That's why there should be more electives in 2nd level education and a wider variety where feasable, including foreign languages, Gaeilge, IT, Art, History, World cultures, Sciences and so on.

However the old ultranationalist DON'T LET THE CROMWELL BEAT US and THE ANCIENT GAELS SPOKE IRISH 1000 YEARS AGO type nonsense being emitted by flogen, diorraing et. al. needs to take a back seat to modern reality and peoples needs.

New_Departure06

Fighting Irish wrote:

Yes but why do we NEED to be educated in irish? It should be voluntary!

To reclaim that which has been lost due to centuries of oppression - our native language. It is a matter of national pride, and protecting our separate identity.