Can Irish be saved?

Widgeon

I would be delighted to see Irish as a language saved. I believe though we have to look at the reasons for its decline before we can take effective remedial action.
I learned to read Irish in the old script. When english lettering and H's were introduced, I could not read Irish anymore.
Some years ago there was a Place Names Commission set up and they destroyed the original Irish Place names of a lot of towns and villages in Ireland in the vain attempt to make Irish more attractive.
After these two events, I lost a lot of interest in Irish. I am not the only one either. What finally finished me with the Irish language was my belief that the language had been hijacked by certtain factions whose philosophies and actions I could not support. Rightly or wrongly, I made the decision not to continue my use of or the further study of Irish in order not to be seen to give any implied support to these factions by the use of the language.

simu

Widgeon wrote:

Rightly or wrongly, I made the decision not to continue my use of or the further study of Irish in order not to be seen to give any implied support to these factions by the use of the language.

Like who? SF and so on? (because they do hijack Irish for their own means imho, which annoys me).

Widgeon

SF was one of the organisations I refer to. As I'm new to this I was unaware of all of the previous replies and it seems they are still trying to tell us they are more Irish than those who do not support their views.

Ace7

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

blackgold>>

Because we are a pack of party animals who don't give a **** about the soil under our feet or where we came from thats why.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ace7 wrote: »

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.
.....

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

The question, I feel, is not one of 'why', the question is one of 'how'? How have the Welsh acheived it and the Irish haven't?

dresden8

The Welsh care. The Irish don't. Uncomfortable maybe but true.

Belfast

yes it can be saved.

The problem is not just with Irish. I Ireland we are bad at learning any language other that the one we grew up speaking.

I school were are taught to read and write Irish and other languages but are not taught to speak them fluently.

The main emphasise in languages we don not already speak should be first how to speak the language and second on how to read and write it.

If we were not and English speaking country and taught English the same way we taught Irish I doubt many people would speak English.

I remember asking some one form Norway why people for Norway spoke such good English compared to Germans.

He said that English language films were not dubbed in to Norwegian and listening to spoken English was a big help.

In Germany most flim and TV are Dubbed in to German and people do not hear as much spoken English.

SeanW

Ace7 wrote: »

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

From what I understand, some English people take the view that the Welsh are somewhat insular. That and the fact that Wales is not an independent nation at present, may explain why the population feels a certain need to pursue the language.

blackgold>> wrote: »

Because we are a pack of party animals who don't give a **** about the soil under our feet or where we came from thats why.

dresden8 wrote: »

The Welsh care. The Irish don't. Uncomfortable maybe but true.

No. We simply don't NEED the Irish language to feel Irish. Much like the American's don't need to speak "American" to feel American, they're happy to use (albeit an adapted form of) the language of their Colonial Masters. Similar story in Austria, Switzerland and so on. Australia too, but perhaps less so. These countries show that you don't need have and be proficient in a "native" language to be a proud patriot of your country.

Ireland has a very large outward focus, we've contributed so much to modern pop culture with music groups and artists like U2, Thin Lizzy, The Corrs, Enya, Sinead O Connor etc, we are players in the modern world.
We also have a vibrant Gaelic sporting tradition, guarded by the GAA, a strong part of our sporting culture that operates healthily alongside "foreign" sports like soccer, rugby and what have you. Heck, when Irish fans travel abroad to support the home team, some sing "Ole Ole Ole" which is actually a Spanish bullfighting chant! But hey, it works, so we use it. Just like English, which we have in practice adopted as our native language.

Dare I say it: We've grown up. I think we, as a people and a nation, have matured beyond the point of needing a different language to prove Irishness, to ourselves or anyone else.

ejmaztec

Could the success of the revival of the Welsh language be something to do with the fact that Wales was still under the thumb of London, thereby promoting Welsh nationalism and a subsequent desire to push Welsh language and culture to the forefront? Or to put it in lay-man's terms - two fingers to the English with a cultural rebellion?

All of the Welsh people whom I've known, of all ages, never lost the ability to speak Welsh, even in the depths of England and other societies.

Here, it seems, I get the idea that there's no incentive to keep up with Irish after formal education ends. As a plastic paddy myself, both of whose parents learned Irish, then forgot all about it when they left here, I can think of no reason for even trying to learn it. It seems too easy not to learn the language.

turgon

ejmaztec wrote: »

Could the success of the revival of the Welsh language be something to do with the fact that Wales was still under the thumb of London,

Absolutely. Whenever a culture feels threatened, it will try to cement is position. The Irish revival was at a time when the Irish Culture was under threat from English ruke. Same with the Welsh at the present.

LordSutch

I think the previous poster has stolen some of my thunder (not that I agree with the two fingers theory), but I agree that Minister Hanifin needs to study why the 'Welsh Language' which is doing so well and which is so vibrant & popular when compared to 'Irish' which is disliked by so many people (here in Ireland)!

Wall to wall 'Irish' lessons in Primary school + Secondary school = Cupla Focal

Ironic then, that Wales (on the island of Britain) which also remains within the UK, has a flourishing language all of its own, while on the other hand 'The Republic' seperated from Britain by sea, left the UK 80 years ago, and the Irish language is dying :rolleyes:

What is the Welsh secret ingredient ?

ejmaztec

ArthurF wrote: »

I think the previous poster has stolen some of my thunder (not that I agree with the two fingers theory), but I agree that Minister Hanifin needs to study why the 'Welsh Language' which is doing so well and which is so vibrant & popular when compared to 'Irish' which is disliked by so many people (here in Ireland)!

Wall to wall 'Irish' lessons in Primary school + Secondary school = Cupla Focal

Ironic then, that Wales (on the island of Britain) which also remains within the UK, has a flourishing language all of its own, while on the other hand 'The Republic' seperated from Britain by sea, left the UK 80 years ago, and the Irish language is dying :rolleyes:

What is the Welsh secret ingredient ?

If the Irish government invited the English back to run the place as part of the UK again, even I would learn Irish - and wave my two fingers.

LordSutch

Good for you, but it doesnt answer any questions re the topic.

Ace7

SeanW wrote: »

From what I understand, some English people take the view that the Welsh are somewhat insular.

Not sure how true that is. Maybe you could expand on that?

In any event, would you concede that many of the same criticisms and limitations that are leveled at the Irish language (its usefulness, etc) could also be said of the Welsh language? As such, would you say that reviving Welsh was, and is, a waste of tax payers money?

ejmaztec

ArthurF wrote: »

Good for you, but it doesnt answer any questions re the topic.

I think that my comments do answer questions. Promotion of "Nationalism" would enhance the value of the Irish language. Unfortunately, "Nationalism" has become a dirty word, more associated with terrorism and minority politics. Anyone trying to promote it seems to be immediately seen in a bad light. If it were re-invented for the majority, people might be more inclined to embrace all things Irish.

Until then, all that I can see are ever-shrinking gaeltachtai (if that's the right spelling).

At the moment, I feel that only a few people actually embrace their Irish identity and that the rest are completely apathetic. Perhaps "Irishness" is only for tourists.

Belfast

Maybe Irish should be banned.

This might make to a lot more popular.

Sand

As a practical example of duel language societies it seems to work well in Holland. When over there I noticed Dutch people predominantly speak Dutch in their day to day lives and were also able to communicate perfectly in English when necessary.

The Dutch speak dutch naturally - it is their day to day language. However, English is the international language - the language of bussiness, travel and culture - books, movies, music. Anyone learning English as a second language has a wide opportunity to use the language in their day to day lives. That simply an accident of history, not a value judgement on the language itself.

Irish is neither the day to day language of Ireland, nor is it an international or useful language to know. Again, this is a result of history.

It has its merits, sure, but so does Latin. Latin is no longer a living language, and neither is Irish. Its dead. The Penal Laws and the famine did their job. Thats sad, its tragic, but its a reality.

When it comes down to education, you can explain to a child why it is important to know maths, basic science, reading, writing etc etc. When they ask you why they need to know Irish? They would be better off learning Chinese. Theres more fluent chinese speakers in Ireland than there are fluent Irish speakers.

We just need a government with the balls to face up to facts and turn off the life support on Irish. I thought that maybe Fine Gael might be the ones with the required stones due to Enda Kennys thoughts on the subject, but that was a false hope. So it seems whilst people continue to die in hospitals, more money will be wasted on a dead language.

At the moment, I feel that only a few people actually embrace their Irish identity and that the rest are completely apathetic. Perhaps "Irishness" is only for tourists.

Perhaps Irish identity has changed since the 15th century...

From what I understand, some English people take the view that the Welsh are somewhat insular.

I have always heard they are twats actually. Though perhaps insular is the nice way of saying twats.

ejmaztec

Sand wrote: »

Perhaps Irish identity has changed since the 15th century....

The Welsh identity has changed, but they still speak Welsh.

Sand wrote: »

I have always heard they are twats actually. Though perhaps insular is the nice way of saying twats.

I've never heard this one.

SeanW

Ace7 wrote: »

In any event, would you concede that many of the same criticisms and limitations that are leveled at the Irish language (its usefulness, etc) could also be said of the Welsh language?

To a point, yes. As they could about Hebrew which was dead until the (re)incorporation of Israel.
Which brings me to a point another poster made, about a culture under threat giving the two fingers to its alleged enemy. I really think that language movements etc really only gain steam when a culture and its people have a siege mentality. It may be a necessary reaction but that tends to be one of the few reasons.

As such, would you say that reviving Welsh was, and is, a waste of tax payers money?

No, I would say that because I am not qualified to make this determination. The only people qualified to do so are the people of Wales and the people who claim Welsh ancestry.
If Welsh people spent their own tax £££s on this willingly and are happy with the results, then it was money well spent.

The question is, is this right for Ireland? I believe the answer is completely different.
In the case of Ireland, I believe that our rich culture, firm identity, sense of security and our outward vision is such that the Irish language is surplus to modern requirements, even if it were dramatically stronger than it is today.

In that way, I think the best comparison you could make for Ireland would be to that of the United States.

We are both ex-colonies of the United Kingdom. We both have massive musical and sporting traditions as an integral part of our culture. And we're both quite happy to speak the language of our former colonial oppressors.
You try telling a quintessential white American in the Mid-West with a flag in his front lawn and patriotic bumper sticker on his pickup truck, watching America Football or Baseball on his television set, new Country & Western CD in his shopping bag, that he's not really American because he speaks English, you will get a very strange look in return. The same thing would happen were you to make a similar statement to the average Irishman.

There are times when one's own language is an essential part of a culture.
This is one case where it isn't. As a people, we have quite simply grown beyond that.

Sand

The Welsh identity has changed, but they still speak Welsh.

Good for them, for whatever benefit it brings. Theres absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning Welsh, Irish or Latin if they so wish to do so.

Irish culture has moved on and survived the death of the Irish language. We arent gaelic Irish anymore - our history is far too complicated for that.

The Irish and our culture are the result of about 500 years of emigration and immigration, altering who we are - a good chunk of Irish people today are of Scottish, English, Welsh descent, with more from across the entire world.

Irish does not equal Gaelic, not anymore, not for 500 years or so. Theres no argument for compulsory Gaelic, or state support of Gaelic based on a culture that existed centuries ago.

LordSutch

SeanW wrote: »

In that way, I think the best comparison you could make for Ireland would be to that of the United States.

We are both ex-colonies of the United Kingdom. We both have massive musical and sporting traditions as an integral part of our culture. And we're both quite happy to speak the language of our former colonial oppressors.

We are both "ex-colonies" of the United Kingdom? former colonial oppressors? > Utter rubbish!

Just to put the record straight "WE the IRISH" actually created the Colonies, "we were the Colony makers" along with the English, Scots & the Welsh. I have no time for this "New Retro Concept" of poor old Ireland actually being an 'ex-colony' itself . . . Ireland never was a colony in the true sense of the term 'Colony' (see wikipedia) & nowhere will you find any reference to Ireland actually being a colony, unless you also consider Sicily to be an Italian colony? or the channel islands to be ex colonies of France ? maybe Achill island is a colony? so I say 'poppycock' to your "colonial oppressors" comment

for poppycock see 'baloney' 'twaddle' 'rubbish' 'trash' & popcorn . . .

Ace7

SeanW, thanks for your response. You express yourself well. I don't necessarily agree with you, but then I guess thats the beauty of a discussion forum

I figured you probably weren't Welsh.:) Be that as it may, I thought you may be somewhat aware of whats happened there so that you might have an opinion...as an outside observer.

I'm not too sure there are that many parallels between Wales, and the celtic Welsh language, and the good ole US of A.

But maybe there are...and I'll be sure to pose the question to some Americans and see what they say.

I'd have thought the Welsh have more in common with the Irish, and vice-a-versa, both in proximity, historically, geographically, celtic-language wise, suppression, and whatever else.

As for those who suggest the Welsh are just 'twats', well, I'd say that is just open rudeness. And by the way, I'm not Welsh. I'm just pening it up for discussion.

RDM_83

I was on the 46a (i think) last year and there was two girls speaking Irish and think it was the first time I'd ever heard anybody speak it on the bus, BUT whenever they changed to speaking english their accent was somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic and consisted of various MTVisms not really relevant to thread but was sort of funny way of illustrating modern irish culture

ps don't speak Irish myself and I thank god that coming from the north I didn't have to learn it throughout school, not for any other reason that I'm terrible at languages and dropped French and German at GCSE

CerebralCortex

ArthurF wrote: »

We are both "ex-colonies" of the United Kingdom? former colonial oppressors? > Utter rubbish!

Just to put the record straight "WE the IRISH" actually created the Colonies, "we were the Colony makers" along with the English, Scots & the Welsh. I have no time for this "New Retro Concept" of poor old Ireland actually being an 'ex-colony' itself . . . Ireland never was a colony in the true sense of the term 'Colony' (see wikipedia) & nowhere will you find any reference to Ireland actually being a colony, unless you also consider Sicily to be an Italian colony? or the channel islands to be ex colonies of France ? maybe Achill island is a colony? so I say 'poppycock' to your "colonial oppressors" comment

for poppycock see 'baloney' 'twaddle' 'rubbish' 'trash' & popcorn . . .

Well of course you would hold that view you have an agenda to protect but you'll find it quite common for Ireland to be referred as a colony in the republic, we were hardly equal partners in the empire we were exploited and suppressed. Sometimes that means doing the oppressors bidding and that doesn't change anything. Also I may be wrong but we had colonisers.

Mermy

SeanW wrote: »

In that way, I think the best comparison you could make for Ireland would be to that of the United States.

We are both ex-colonies of the United Kingdom. We both have massive musical and sporting traditions as an integral part of our culture. And we're both quite happy to speak the language of our former colonial oppressors.
You try telling a quintessential white American in the Mid-West with a flag in his front lawn and patriotic bumper sticker on his pickup truck, watching America Football or Baseball on his television set, new Country & Western CD in his shopping bag, that he's not really American because he speaks English, you will get a very strange look in return. The same thing would happen were you to make a similar statement to the average Irishman.

.

I dont agree that USA and Ireland are all that similar at all as the vast majority of the Usa didnt speak one common language before their colonisers took power and their is certainly no link at all between an aincent language and cultural nationalism in America as there is here.

On a practicle level you only need to look at the huge expansion of gaelscoileanna in major cities to see the importance of Irish to a new urban generation.

As a result I think it is impossible to say Irish is dead

LordSutch

You are correct CerebralCortex to say that Ireland is referred to as en ex colony in the Republic . . .
(but only retrospectively in very recent years)!

I still say that the term 'Colony' is currently being abused ~ thats all.

P.S. I do think the Irish language should be saved, and I think that Minister Hanafin should look very closely at the Welsh model & the modern revival of the Welsh language as I said in Post #103.

djpbarry

Mermy wrote: »

On a practicle level you only need to look at the huge expansion of gaelscoileanna in major cities to see the importance of Irish to a new urban generation.

Huge expansion? According to gaelscoileanna.ie, four new gaelscoileanna have opened in Dublin in the last ten years; three primary schools and just one secondary school. I'm not sure I would term that a "huge expansion".

HalloweenJack

I think Irish can be saved as a classical language like Latin has been but the dwindling fluency and the calls, by some second-level students and their families, for it to be removed as a compulsory subject will only damage it more.

I'm an Irish lover myself. I attended 14 years of all-Irish education but in this globalising world, Irish is going to be left behind, especially when we already speak the dominant language of the world.

Sleepy

I'd be all for the revamping of the Irish curriculum in schools on two conditions:

1. It's removed as a compulsory subject for Leaving Cert.

2. We stop wasting money printing every government form, website and pamphlet in Irish.

There's nothing compulsory about the language for modern life. It's a nice part of our heritage to have but it's a luxury, not an important part of our economic survival worthy of the same attention as our flagging Leaving Cert maths proficiency, poor take up of scientific subjects etc.

Honestly, it's like buying a sports car on hire purchase when you're behind with your rent.