Can Irish be saved?

Pappy o' daniel

Let it die, language is organic and Gaeilge is beginning to stink.

SeanW

Mermy wrote: »

I dont agree that USA and Ireland are all that similar at all as the vast majority of the Usa didnt speak one common language before their colonisers took power and their is certainly no link at all between an aincent language and cultural nationalism in America as there is here.

Nonetheless, you must surely accept that having a unique language is not necessary for a unique identity and culture.

On a practicle level you only need to look at the huge expansion of gaelscoileanna in major cities to see the importance of Irish to a new urban generation.

My understanding that the Gaelscoils are better resourced than their "normal" counterparts, so I must wonder how many of the parents who send their children to them, do so because they want them to learn the Irish language well, vis-a-vis those sent to the Gaelscoils simply because they're the only schools in the area not consisting of a disorganised array of Portocabins.

As a result I think it is impossible to say Irish is dead

And I don't contend that it is: It's on life support. Compulsory education in it - which yields no results, millions of €€€s wasted on translating everything into it, a requirement for fluency to join for example the Gardaí, all this at a time when all but a vocal minority of the population considers the language to be an anachronism, just doesn't make much sense.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Find a person's position on the Irish language being compulsory is generally a very good indicator of how decent a person they are.

Life support analogy is probably the most accuarate. Though quite a worrying amount of librarian provos you hear spouting their fundamentalist gaelige agenda these days.

ChocolateSauce

While I don't disagree that those might be positive steps, I don't speak Irish and nor do I want to. I, and many, many other people, resent Irish being forced down our throats. English is the spoken language of Ireland, and to relegate it to second-class status (as many people seem to want to do) is unacceptable.

Lip service is a real cop-out. It's intellectually dishonest (as W.B Yeats famously said in the Senate) to pretend we all speak Irish, and I really don't understand the logic of people who proclaim how we should all speak Irish (whether we want to or not) and then go around speaking English. Also, demanding the government spend billions on it just to keep it on life-support is shirking responsibility. If the Jews could bring back Hebrew in one generation after it was dead for hundreds and hundreds of years, there's no reason we can't bring back Irish, other than we don't wont to or couldn't be bothered.

Belfast

The question is why do countries try to revive languages that have died out or almost died out?

Israel is the only country that I know that has been successfully in doing this.

As regards Welch it survived better because the industrial revolution in Welch speaking areas.

This meant that there were well paid job for Welch speakers unlike Ireland where to progress ergonomically learning to speak English was important.

When people in Ireland after the famine learnt English they learnt to speak it before they learn to read or write it.

We now many try to teach people read and write it rather that speak it.

I wonder if Ireland had not become an English speaking country would we now be talking about the failure of the Irish education to teach people English to an acceptable standard?

The big questions why do so few people in Ireland speak any other language other that English even after year of studying French, German etc for year in secondary school?

ChocolateSauce

Belfast wrote: »

The big questions why do so few people in Ireland speak any other language other that English even after year of studying French, German etc for year in secondary school?

Two main reasons:

1. BAD TEACHING. I don't really want to elaborate too much, but too much emphisis on reading and writing and not enough on speaking...

2. We're in the Anglo-sphere. Countries with English as their first language are famously bad at learning other languges, primarily because we don't need them as much as other countries need English. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's the truth.

djpbarry

theozster wrote: »

1. BAD TEACHING. I don't really want to elaborate too much, but too much emphisis on reading and writing and not enough on speaking...

I think that depends on individual circumstances. I had a pretty lousy French teacher, but there were better teachers in the school.

theozster wrote: »

2. We're in the Anglo-sphere. Countries with English as their first language are famously bad at learning other languges, primarily because we don't need them as much as other countries need English.

As an extension of this, I would say many English-speakers are too lazy to learn another language because they EXPECT everyone else (or at least the majority) to speak their language, no matter where they go.

Hotblack Desiato

djpbarry wrote: »

Huge expansion? According to gaelscoileanna.ie, four new gaelscoileanna have opened in Dublin in the last ten years; three primary schools and just one secondary school. I'm not sure I would term that a "huge expansion".

IMHO this has less to do with new-found love of 'an teanga' and more to do with the very limited alternatives to the church-dominated model of education which is, quite rightly, unacceptable to an increasing number of parents.

ChocolateSauce

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that depends on individual circumstances. I had a pretty lousy French teacher, but there were better teachers in the school.

Partly, but only 1/4 or 1/3. The primary problem is that even a good teacher is forced to teach the leaving cert course, which is dire.

djpbarry wrote: »

As an extension of this, I would say many English-speakers are too lazy to learn another language because they EXPECT everyone else (or at least the majority) to speak their language, no matter where they go.

I agree in full, and am ashamedly guilty of this.

LordSutch

Irish lessons must be 'optional' in primary school, Irish lessons must be 'optional' in secondary school, therby taking the pressure 'off' the language & giving it some breathing space which will allow it to flourish & to be appreciated, "Irish lessons must be made Fun lessons" (instead of torture lessons) & I definately think Irish should be taught in schools with much more emphasis on the spoken word rather than the written, I think conversations in Irish should be encouraged rather than the current repetitive brain numbingly boring time- wasting curriculum (which obviously has not worked & still does not work) I also think that TG4 could be comissioned by the government to broadcast an Irish language tutorial programme, presented by hector ?

I seriously think that the Welsh model should be unashamedly 'copied' & 'pasted' into the Irish education system lock stock & barrell, and I think that this will be the only way that future generations might grow to like/love and even speak the Irish language, not just in the west, but also in pockets all over the country, just like Welsh.

Quite why we are so 'reluctant' to follow the Welsh model is beyond me.

Pgibson

I asked a person from Iceland (same population as Cork City.) how come they are SO proud of their language and have they any lessons for us.

Her answer was as simple as it was true.

"Start sacking teachers. Throw them out. If there were Icelandic teachers in Ireland's schools Ireland would be as spotlessly clean and litter free as Iceland.....and everyone in Ireland would be dead proud to speak the Irish language."

Hear Hear..Nordic common sense.

.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pgibson wrote: »

I asked a person from Iceland (same population as Cork City.) how come they are SO proud of their language and have they any lessons for us.

Her answer was as simple as it was true.

"Start sacking teachers. Throw them out. If there were Icelandic teachers in Ireland's schools Ireland would be as spotlessly clean and litter free as Iceland.....and everyone in Ireland would be dead proud to speak the Irish language."

Hear Hear..Nordic common sense.

.

Yeah, but we don't like Nordic liberalism around here. Keep the place clean? Earn respect? Too much hard work!!

Ace7

I was reading somewhere recently about the Isle of Man where the celtic/gaelic Manx language wasn't just struggling...it had been dead for about 30 years.

The last native speaker had passed away in the early 70's. But before he did, someone had the foresight to make some tape recordings of him which exist today as a reference.

Today, Manx is undergoing a revival. Now they even have schools there that are teaching everything, the entire curriculum, in Manx.

djpbarry

Pgibson wrote: »

I asked a person from Iceland (same population as Cork City.) how come they are SO proud of their language and have they any lessons for us.

Her answer was as simple as it was true.

"Start sacking teachers. Throw them out. If there were Icelandic teachers in Ireland's schools Ireland would be as spotlessly clean and litter free as Iceland.....and everyone in Ireland would be dead proud to speak the Irish language."

Hear Hear..Nordic common sense.

Sounds more like propaganda to me.

I've yet to hear any good reasons why we would all be so much better off if we were all fluent Irish-speakers.

Tomas_V

theozster wrote: »

If the Jews could bring back Hebrew in one generation after it was dead for hundreds and hundreds of years, there's no reason we can't bring back Irish, other than we don't wont to or couldn't be bothered.

It's not exactly ancient Hebrew, it's a mixture of that, Yiddish, German and other languages. I would suspect it was done as a means of unifying Jews of various original nationalities coming together in the Jewish state of Israel. Similarly, the Gaelic revival of the late 19th century devised a definition of 'Irishness' to unify people living in Ireland against the English government. Indeed, some of the champions of this Gaelic brand came from distinctly non-'Irish' stock and succeeded in reinventing themselves.

The circumstances in Ireland now are different and it's often ignored that many Irish people of hundreds of years ancestry in Ireland never spoke Irish in the first place.

Why stop at Irish? Why not go back to the languages spoken by their Indo-European forebears? The Latin of the 'Island of Saints and scholars'? I think the answer is that Irish has been selected by people who want to sport a particular and selective ethnic identity for their own reasons. Gaelic Taliban perhaps?

daithicarr

The question isint should irish be saved , but can it be saved. Clearly there are a lot of people who do and dont want to see it saved. i think both opinions should be respected. If you dont want to learn irish you shouldnt have too and if you do it should be made more accesable. each persons reason for wanting or not wanting to learn is their own and they Are prefectly justified to them.

I hated Irish in school, i had bad teachers and started late and was trying to write in a language i couldnt understand, it nearly killed my interest. it was only through my love of music that i recindled and interest as i listened to Irish music and from there developed a wider interest in the subject.

I think the compulsory status of the language has done it terrible harm.

For a start i am trying to learn but having a hard time finding beginners classes in the republics second biggest city. money would be better spent on those who want to learn rather than those who "should".

more Gealscoils should be made availabe in Primary and secondary levels. lots of people who want to send their kids to irish schools cant because the places dont exist and in some places on primary schools and they loose a lot in english speaking secondary schools.

maybe state funded irish creches would be also a good idea(state creches in any language would be a good idea)

I have a little sister who went to school in France and by the age of 9 speaks great french and english, she also seems to be taking to irish very well even though she has spent so much time in france and missed so much . aquiring one extra language has helped her immensly in aquring another, in this case irish, despite the terrible way in which it is taught.

i think the case for multilingual education is quite strong, but if people dont want to learn it they should take part. but for those of us who would like to learn and keep it alive i think we should look at how we could do this, clearly the current tactics are not working.

The goverements use of figures to justify its success it deplorable. sure they have figures that more people have a knowledge of irish than the foundation of this state, but its fairly obvious to everyone that a lot less people do speak it for various reasons. yet they seem content continue.

NewDubliner

daithicarr wrote: »

The question isint should irish be saved , but can it be saved. Clearly there are a lot of people who do and dont want to see it saved. i think both opinions should be respected. If you dont want to learn irish you shouldnt have too and if you do it should be made more accesable. each persons reason for wanting or not wanting to learn is their own and they Are prefectly justified to them.

It goes beyond this. Should people who don't speak Irish have to pay for Irish-language schools for non-Irish speaking families? How about the extra cost in printing government documents in Irish,and producing web sites and expensive computer systems in English and Irish?

Millions of euro is being wasted on provding documents and services in Irish to a small number of people who can quite easily speak English.

BrenC

I think its a shame the language is dying. I am one of the many that didn't like it in school, more so because I couldn't be bothered learning it at the time and I was being made do it.

I like the way it sounds and how unique it seems.

daithicarr

we all pay tax and not everyone is happy with where it is all spent, some want more on health , or more on security (police prisons etc) others think less tax should be collected and spent others more. if a large body of the irish tax paying public would like to support irish then it should get some level of support, others might hold cancer research a bigger priority.

should people who dont have cancer be forced to pay for cancer treatment, should people who think military spending is a waste of time be able to opt out of paying tax which goes towards it.

money is waste on everything in this state, from roads to schools to hospitals there could be a lot more value for money. A large proportion of the irish people want to support the Irish language , how to spend the resource available in the most effective way should be examined, clearly the present system isint working, but that doesnt mean we should just ditch the language and give up.

The Corinthian

daithicarr wrote: »

A large proportion of the irish people want to support the Irish language , how to spend the resource available in the most effective way should be examined, clearly the present system isint working, but that doesnt mean we should just ditch the language and give up.

Much like getting objective figures of those who are actually fluent, or can even speak, the language, it is difficult to guage how many really do support it's retention - or more correctly - within limits.

Support of the language seems to fall into three categories:

• Strong Support. Typically nationalistic Galegores who have as many economic as ideological reasons for supporting it. After all, the Irish language employs (Irish language programming, translation, etc.) and further economically assists (grants, tax breaks, etc) quite a few people in Ireland.
• Strong Opposition. Often West-Brit wannabe's, but just as often urbanites with little or no knowledge or use for the language or who may have had bad experiences in the past (being force fed something that even as a child they felt was a waste of time).
• Weak Support to Neutral. Generally well disposed to the language or at least to the idea of the language and typically will tie it in with national identity. Will have cupla focal, which they will no doubt use upon occasion (when seeking to impress a foreign girl).
  
  However there's a limit to this good will, which may be sorely tested if this large proportion of the population ever works out how much of their pay cheques goes to employing the aforementioned Galegores.

The question is whether the language can be made realistically made more relevant to an urban and increasingly cosmopolitan Ireland before that third, and by far largest, group realises their good will is simply keeping the Eamon O Cuiv fan club in jobs.

daithicarr

i think you are generalizing far too much there, sure there are a lot of people around who support or oppose it for the below reasons. But I know a lot of people who are very enthusiastic about the language and speak it regularly but are definitely not nationalistic, they get no economic incentive either, but merely speak the language for the love of it.
I my self am learning the language and definitely would not be a nationalist nor does it give me any economic benefit.

Equally most the people I know who dislike the language would not be west brits, it was through the terrible teaching methods used to learn the language that they developed a dislike for it. And when they have developed this dislike will be more susceptible to the opinions of the "west brits" who deride it and many other aspects of Irish culture.
Personally I think the current system does the language more harm than good. We are not going to stop trying in some form to revive and support the language but there needs to be a real debate on how this can be done successfully

The Corinthian

I'll fully admit I am generalizing, however my point is one of that in reality the vast majority of those with an opinion on the subject are still roughly favourable, but not guaranteed to remain so - they're in the middle but only just tipped in favour. This is the point - not those strongly pro or anti who are on the fringes.

I'd generally agree with you about changing things to revive and make it relevant. But I also think we're fast running out of time, and in another generation or less, the growing sense of irrelevance, combined with cost, may well result in a quiet 'winding down' of those policies that promote the language.

daithicarr

true if we continue to force it ineffectively down peoples throats they will grow hostile too it. maybe if they had made it compulsory and teach it effectively they may have got some where.

now i think the only chance it has is to drop its compulsory teaching and completely revamp the teaching to make it more effective. there is no point in continuing with it in its current form. it has been in force for 80 years and has failed miserably. But what's the next step.

should they keep it compulsory up to a certain age and completely change the way they teach it concentrating on learning to speak Irish. should they completely remove the compulsory nature and provide immersion education for those that want it? etc

dlofnep

I think the language can be saved. But I think there should be more options for people after school to study the language. I find that most people rekindle a liking for the language once they are outside school. I found it hard finding courses to study the language, so in turn I was forced to learn from CD's, DVD's, Books and setting up a conversational circle in my city.

I am starting a course in 2 weeks, it's €240 - which I don't mind paying. But alot of people don't have the money. There should be free lessons in every major town & city so that people who want to learn, can learn for free.

As far as the education goes, I just think they should spend more time on conversational Irish. I've learnt more in the past year just speaking the language, than I ever did in 13 or whatever years of school it was. If they put aside 2 or 3 classes a week to just speak the language, and discuss topics of interest - and explain how to express yourself on certain topics, and then have 2 or 3 classes on the grammar side of things - I think you'd see alot more fluency throughout school.

The curriculum has failed us. Let's hope we can get it resolved. Many people don't care about the language, but I'm not one of them.

daithicarr

i too had massive problems finding a class to suit my level, i have very poor irish despite 14 years of it, i also have terrible Italian and French despite 6 years of them, maybe i dont have an aptitude for languages but i recon the awful way it is taught had a lot to do with my fluency and enthusiasms. for years after school i was very hostile too it.

now that i am enthusiastic i am finding it hard to get a course, there is only one available in cork , the republics second biggest city and it costs 240 euro. the problem is the timing is completely unsuitable but i have no other choice.

dlofnep

Is it the Gaelchultur course Daithicarr? There should be a few levels. I'm doing the lower intermediate one. But theres an elementary and beginners course too, depending on what city you're in/

Seloth

By the end of First Year I knew more Spanish then Irish like most people in my year.

Why becasue we were thought from the begining.

By 4th year I was terrible at Spanish as I ahd gotten the same Terrible Teacher for Second and Third.

The 4th year teacher didnt help me as she was covering new stuff that needed knowledge of the years before.

This is pretty much the same with Irish,In first eyar your expected to know acertian amoutn fo Irish alreay when you dont,In primary school your given Irish and English spelling test,The English part for jsut knowing how to spell your words and the Irish part to learn some Irish,but you dont know that when your a kid...itsk knowing how to spell something by Firday and you dont need it,you focus on the letters,not the word.And ofr Iirsh lessons in primary school it was pretty much write out the verbs of soandsoand so fort or you get questions which regaurd to a paragraph above when you just need to read the question for similar words andwrite that sentance.

And then in secondary school,your continued the lesson on a subject you dont know much about rather then being given afresh start.

My last Irish teacher thought it should be tought to us like Spanish or which ever language you did was when you started secondary school but they couldnt as they have to follow a programme.

Conversational Irish is what needs to be thought,and not by mainly writting it either.

And Irish did not fall 800 years ago,it fell during the planations,And English before that was only spoken in the pale,smaller than Dublin.


Say your grandmothers watch was stolen when she was young,but the you happened to come across this watch...would you not want to get it back,Of course you would,and with Irish it is the same,Irish was beaten out of us during the plantations and now the governemnt is now fecking it up making us Hate Irish class((even if we love the language or not)) by try to beat it back into us.

And Yes,Even if they slowly introduced it like a person metioned before with Taoisach and Gardí.Such as replacing shop with síopa and and with agus.

Wasnt there some show where a guy went around speaking Irish and he came across some girls down here in cork that were Using Irish for slang.That brilliant for teenagers and such to be doing,In the secodary school I was in last year((changing to a new one this year for 5th & 6th)) and there was allot of Irish slang

daithicarr

hi Dlofnep,

no it wasnt the Gaelchultur course it was the ionad na gaeiilge labhartha, in ucc. typical both beginners courses are monday nights, the night i cant make. ill jst have to get a cd and start myself.

maybe if they dont want to change the compulsory nature if irish they could instead make the first 6-8 years of primary school fun by just having conversations and games in irish, that way kids would learn to speak and have fun. not be struggling with spellings and grammer etc.

dlofnep

I have some CD's here, just private message me your email and I'll rip them for you and send them on.

Seloth

daithicarr wrote: »

hi Dlofnep,

no it wasnt the Gaelchultur course it was the ionad na gaeiilge labhartha, in ucc. typical both beginners courses are monday nights, the night i cant make. ill jst have to get a cd and start myself.

maybe if they dont want to change the compulsory nature if irish they could instead make the first 6-8 years of primary school fun by just having conversations and games in irish, that way kids would learn to speak and have fun. not be struggling with spellings and grammer etc.

I have to agree,in 6th class we did a bit of Italian and we did it by having fun and for the year I was good for knowing the italian we were givne((but lsot this as I had no need in first eyar on *L*))