Spurs to launch legal challenge

Ardent

Just saw this now. Are they mad?

http://www.football365.com/teams/tottenham_hotspur/story_183133.shtml

A Spurs 'insider' told the Telegraph: "All Premier League teams start the season knowing that the top four get into the Champions League and those four teams should qualify regardless.

Eh, hello! UEFA changed the rules after Liverpool's unique situation last summer. Spurs haven't a leg to stand on. Am I not right?

BaZmO*

The key word there being "insider" I was reading through the article looking for a source.

They haven't even finished 4th and Arsenal haven't even made it to the Final.

Must be a slow news day.

Seaneh

it's up to the countrys FA to nominate teams for the CL, In most countries ONLY the top 4 clubs get into the champions league, and that was the same with england untill last year.

UEFA made a special allowence for liverpool to play this year and there were actually 5 english clubs in the CL. This will never happen again, and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

To be honest I agree with Spurs, they have earned it if they finish 4th.

Ardent

So you're saying it's up to the country in question to nominate four teams? Then why are Spurs allegedly considering legal action against UEFA? Who's call is it really? Perhaps UEFA amended the rules to state that in the event of a situation where Arsenal win this season, Spurs will not be eligible for the competition? In which case, IMO, Spurs have no cause for complaint.

You can't have a cup competition without the defending champions, what of competition is that?

TheMonster

IMO after this years fiasco the rules should assume the winner doesn't qualify and if they do then 1 team gets a bye in the 1st round - problem solved. So be it if there are 5 teams from 1 country.

Seaneh

TheMonster wrote:

So be it if there are 5 teams from 1 country.

But that means that one team from another country who did qualify lose thier place to another team from another country who didn't qualify! To me that's a load of bollocks.

BaZmO*

TheMonster wrote:

IMO after this years fiasco the rules should assume the winner doesn't qualify and if they do then 1 team gets a bye in the 1st round - problem solved. So be it if there are 5 teams from 1 country.

The adjustment made after Liverpool won last year is fine.
Spurs, along with every other team in the PL, knew what the rules were at the beginning of the season. To complain now is just sour grapes.

Pigman II

Personally I think shows what a joke football is today when a team are arguing that they deserve to qualify for a tournament called the "champions league" for coming 4th!

It's ironic that nearly as soon as started calling the Champions League they started letting teams in who weren't champions of anything.

Seaneh wrote:

But that means that one team from another country who did qualify lose thier place to another team from another country who didn't qualify! To me that's a load of bollocks.

Iirc nobody lost their place when Liverpool were dumped into the qualfiers. Probably 1 extra team had to move back a premlin round to suit the mathematics and you could argue that Liverpools presence in the prelims did probably indirectly cause the failure of 1team to qualify for the groups stages, but that's about it. I don't think Liverpool 'took' anyones place ie I don't think anyone was denied the 'opportunity to play in the Champions League' by Liverpools inclusion?

TheMonster

Seaneh wrote:

But that means that one team from another country who did qualify lose thier place to another team from another country who didn't qualify! To me that's a load of bollocks.

no-one will lose their place - a bye will be given to a weaker team if the team has already qualified. This is simailr to what happened this year.

_blank_

BaZmO* wrote:

The adjustment made after Liverpool won last year is fine.
Spurs, along with every other team in the PL, knew what the rules were at the beginning of the season. To complain now is just sour grapes.

This is a contradiction.

Liverpool knew the rules before the start of this season, was it sour grapes on their part to complain or try to gain access to this season's competition? They got the rules changed, who is to say that Spurs won't?

BaZmO*

seansouth wrote:

This is a contradiction.

Liverpool knew the rules before the start of this season, was it sour grapes on their part to complain or try to gain access to this season's competition? They got the rules changed, who is to say that Spurs won't?

I know what your saying, but likewise, I think you're aware of the point I was making.

KdjaCL

Wont matter Arsenal will beat Spurs on sunday and take 4th with their game in hand, Spurs have one point from the top 4 encounters this season. For Spurs to be expecting to finish 4th is a little presumptious when getting 1 whole point from the top is hardly CL material.

kdjac

PHB

So you're saying it's up to the country in question to nominate four teams? Then why are Spurs allegedly considering legal action against UEFA? Who's call is it really? Perhaps UEFA amended the rules to state that in the event of a situation where Arsenal win this season, Spurs will not be eligible for the competition? In which case, IMO, Spurs have no cause for complaint.

I think it's possible that legal action can be taken against UEFA for taking prerogative over the countries decesion making. Maybe they could argue that the FA have the right to decide, in which case it'd be an interesting decesion.

I still think it's absolute bull**** that Liverpool got in last year, and if Arsenal get in this year for similar reasons, I will again think it is absolute bull****.
Everton earned their place, just like Spurs will if they make it to 4th.

~Rebel~

seansouth wrote:

This is a contradiction.

Liverpool knew the rules before the start of this season, was it sour grapes on their part to complain or try to gain access to this season's competition? They got the rules changed, who is to say that Spurs won't?

The change in rules this year was to stop that ambiguity though, which was brought on by the precedent of the champions always defending, including when Real missed out on 4th place in Spain. The rules coming into this season were very clear cut to stop any possible complaints and as i recall there was even a statement then saying something like - all clubs know where they stand now and what is required to reach the champions league.

It would really suck for Spurs, but given what happened last year UEFA would look like utter morons if they just reversed their new rule under the exact same circumstances, and didnt leave the champions defend.

SuprSi

I'd be gutted if Spurs finish in 4th and don't get into the Champions League, though to be honest I think this whole thing is moot anyway as Arsenal will most likely beat Spurs on Saturday.

Guy:Incognito

Ardent wrote:

Eh, hello! UEFA changed the rules after Liverpool's unique situation last summer. Spurs haven't a leg to stand on. Am I not right?

Uefa did'nt change any rule as there wasnt one to change. They mearly state that the countries FA nominate 4 (or however many they are entitled to) teams to compete, which 4 are up to the fa. They could enter the bottom 4 from the conference if they want. It was just assumed to be the top 4 which is where the rguement came in last year. They have since decided its the top 3, plus the 4th team, providing no one outside the top 4 wins it.

I'd liek to see SPurs in it, but they havnt a leg to stand on if Arsenal win the cl. I have a feelign Arsenal are goign to finish 4th anyway.

Rikand

~Rebel~ wrote:

It would really suck for Spurs, but given what happened last year UEFA would look like utter morons if they just reversed their new rule under the exact same circumstances, and didnt leave the champions defend.

Looking like utter morons is a position UEFA thrive in! i wouldnt expect anything with them

therecklessone

BaZmO* wrote:

Spurs, along with every other team in the PL, knew what the rules were at the beginning of the season. To complain now is just sour grapes.

Pigman II wrote:

Personally I think shows what a joke football is today when a team are arguing that they deserve to qualify for a tournament called the "champions league" for coming 4th!

Spurs aren't claiming anything, an unnamed "insider" at the club is. Until the season ends and 4th place plus the CL is settled, how about we wait for Spurs to act before we stand in judgement?

FWIW, I believe a legal challenge by Spurs would be a bad thing, we knew the score pre-season, the rules were clarified by UEFA and there's no point in complaining now. I'd prefer if the competition was returned to its pre-CL days, with only league champions and the defending champions competing, but its a big boys club now, they make the rules.

KdjaC wrote:

Wont matter Arsenal will beat Spurs on sunday and take 4th with their game in hand, Spurs have one point from the top 4 encounters this season. For Spurs to be expecting to finish 4th is a little presumptious when getting 1 whole point from the top is hardly CL material.

Top 4 being Chelsea, ManYoo, Pool and Spurs? We took 2 points, a draw at Old Trafford and a draw at WHL to the Pool.

If your top 4 includes Arsenal at Spurs' expense, the haul is 3 points (so far) with a draw at home to Arsenal.

BaZmO*

therecklessone wrote:

Spurs aren't claiming anything, an unnamed "insider" at the club is. Until the season ends and 4th place plus the CL is settled, how about we wait for Spurs to act before we stand in judgement?

Did you read my first post?

therecklessone

BaZmO* wrote:

Did you read my first post?

Sorry, I did read the whole thread but got distracted by other stuff and when I came back I'd your post already selected for quoting.

Note to self: do not read four message boards at the same time.

I blame firefox and its damned tabbing.

Dont be at yourself

phb wrote:

I think it's possible that legal action can be taken against UEFA for taking prerogative over the countries decesion making. Maybe they could argue that the FA have the right to decide, in which case it'd be an interesting decesion.

That's not the grounds of the case at all, actually. Spurs are, supposedly, taking issue with the fact that only in the case of Italy, Spain and England does a team lose a place should another team from the same country win the competition - ie, if a team in France won the CL, they'd get an extra place, whereas teams in Italy, Spain and England wouldn't - which is discrimatory. So while I'm not up on European law, I reckon that might be grounds for a case.

Ardent

Stekelly wrote:

Uefa did'nt change any rule as there wasnt one to change. They mearly state that the countries FA nominate 4 (or however many they are entitled to) teams to compete, which 4 are up to the fa. They could enter the bottom 4 from the conference if they want. It was just assumed to be the top 4 which is where the rguement came in last year. They have since decided its the top 3, plus the 4th team, providing no one outside the top 4 wins it.

If what you say is correct why would the UEFA spokesman say the following:

...with UEFA director of communications William Gaillard, saying: "The decision was taken last year, so if we changed the decision again we would look like complete fools.

"The rules are clear. If Arsenal win the Champions League then, like all defending champions, they would be in, and if Tottenham finish fourth they would be out."

BaZmO*

therecklessone wrote:

Sorry, I did read the whole thread but got distracted by other stuff and when I came back I'd your post already selected for quoting.

Note to self: do not read four message boards at the same time.

I blame firefox and its damned tabbing.

iregk

This is just as ridiculous as last years decision to allow 5 english teams in was. The fa should have had to choose between either Everton or Liverpool simple as that.

As an earlier poster said its up to the FA to choose the 4 teams going to the CL. At the moment they do this by way of top 4 placings. Fairly simple. A couple of years ago after Madrid won it and finished 5th the spanish fa had to choose. Did you hear them bitch and moan no, they choose to allow Real defend the title and as such I think it was Zaragoza that lost out. Can't quite remember the team. Spain set the precident. The rest should follow.

But wait this is the spinless FA, they haven't the balls to make the decision so they will no doubt appeal it. My only hope is that UEFA stand firm and make the choose.

WhiteWashMan

ah, nothing like a report from 'an insider' which was actually the groundskeepers assistant who overheard the bootboy mention something about taking legal action and happened to mention uefa and champions league in the same half hour, to keep the reporters typewritter tapping.

oh, what a mouthful.

personally, i'll wait til something official is said, and i certainly dont think spurs feel they have 4th place in the bag.
then again, arsenal still have to get past villareal and win the final.

Jivin Turkey

Word on the street is that it is the same "insider" who gave us Cisse to Spurs for Defoe + Lennon + £4M.

As regards the ifs and buts, if Arsenal win it they should get a chance to defend it, as has always been the case.

Lemlin

*If* its true, Spurs should miss out. Simple as that. I don't know why all the English teams go whingeing to UEFA, didn't Zaragoza (I think it was them) miss out a few years ago when Real won it. I don't remember hearing about legal action from them.

Mossy Monk

a load of ****e

it is not known who will finish 4th
Arsenal havent even gotten to the final, let alone win it. slow news day indeed

Johnny_the_fox

im nearly sure - if arsenal win the CL... and spurs finish 4th. 5 teams would qualify.

Celtic (being champions in scotland) will lose out - they will have to qualify from round 2.

it affects scotland because the are lowest in the country - for automatic place in the group stage.

therecklessone

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

im nearly sure - if arsenal win the CL... and spurs finish 4th. 5 teams would qualify.

Celtic (being champions in scotland) will lose out - they will have to qualify from round 2.

it affects scotland because the are lowest in the country - for automatic place in the group stage.

No, if Arsenal win the CL and finish 5th there'll still only be 4 English teams. Unlike the 4th place team in England having to qualify, Arsenal will go straight into the group stages, replacing Celtic who'll drop to the qualifiers.

Ardent

Lemlin wrote:

*If* its true, Spurs should miss out. Simple as that. I don't know why all the English teams go whingeing to UEFA, didn't Zaragoza (I think it was them) miss out a few years ago when Real won it. I don't remember hearing about legal action from them.

Emm, I think I remember reading that they were threatening to sue UEFA after it was decided to let both Liverpool and Everton in to the competition this season. I don't know if that actually materialised or not though.

Lemlin

Ardent wrote:

Emm, I think I remember reading that they were threatening to sue UEFA after it was decided to let both Liverpool and Everton in to the competition this season. I don't know if that actually materialised or not though.

But they didn't at the time. And I wouldn't of blamed them at that stage, I'd say they were very angry. The Champions League is worth a lot of money and they lost out on that.

Necronomicon

I think the Spanish FA gave Zaragoza huge compensation when that happened.

*If* this is true, then it is hugely presumptious for Spurs to think that they will finish 4th. However, I doubt it is true and I don't think anyone should take an article from Football365 as gospel.

My own 2 cents, for what it's worth, is while it would be unfair on Spurs to finish 4th and not qualify, the rules were stated clearly at the start of the season after the Liverpool/Everton fiasco.

BaZmO*

Just thinking....If Arsenal win the CL and Spurs finish 4th surely the fairest thing to do would be let the 2 of them through at the expense of Liverpool considering what happened last year.

DaveH

UEFA did change the rules for the 2005/2006 CL. If Aresnal win the CL and finish 5th with Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Spurs above them. Spurs will drop into Uefa cup and Aresnal into CL. The rule is not just for England, Italy, Spain. If the champions league winners do not qualify from their league but win the CL, the cl winners take the place of the lowest qualifing team. Even for instance if Shels win CL and Bohs win LOI, Bohs wont quailfy for CL, but go into UEFA. Which would really delight me.

From what I can see this is David Dean causing problems at the F.A. In 2004, the FA announced that if Chelsea\Arsenal won CL and finished outside top 4, both would qualify for CL with 4th place CL going into UEFA Cup. But when it was Chelsea\Liverpool, the FA changed their minds, Why?? Automatic selection for CL, would have been Chelsea(premiership winners) and Liverpool (CL Holders), with Arsenal\Man U going into pre-qualifing. Dean wasnt going to let arsenal struggle it out for a cl place, so he tried to block Liverpool getting in. In my opionion Everton should have been knock out, As solictors say, pls refer to the Real madrid case 2000. Everton deserved a crack at CL, but Liverpool were defending champions and deserved their crack at defending it!

therecklessone

DaveH wrote:

UEFA did change the rules for the 2005/2006 CL. If Aresnal win the CL and finish 5th with Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Spurs above them. Spurs will drop into Uefa cup and Aresnal into CL. The rule is not just for England, Italy, Spain. If the champions league winners do not qualify from their league but win the CL, the cl winners take the place of the lowest qualifing team.

Don't think thats true, hence the "possible" legal challenge. Only leagues with four CL qualifiers are affected, in all other cases the league qualifiers retain their place and the CL winners qualify seperately.

Kingp35

I really dont see the point in arguing about this yet considering Arsenal still have to beat Villareala nd win the final and Spurs still have to finish fourth. IMO one of those things wont happen.